BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK.

[matt47]

herolee loves Supes so much, that's all. He wants the best outcome.

This. We all have that one thing in this movie that if it happens we will go absolutely rage on.

 

[Herolee10]

Superman is the big kid in the playground. If he does nothing, he's criticized and people say he's equally responsible for whatever happens. If he does something, he's interfering, abusing his power or being a bully. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't territory.

Pretty much sums up his cinematic history and reception doesn't it?lol

But it's definitely agitating, that's for sure.

The character can't be used in "Supergirl" because of this film, which resulted in Superman being portrayed as a poor excuse for a hero and cousin in that show's canon.

And for every fan you find that says that they enjoyed MOS, you'll find another person that says that they didn't like it either.

I think I'm going to make it a goal now to have ZERO expectations as a Superman fan when it comes to films.

Because no matter what people do, the character will get shortchanged. Unless it's revealed by a reliable source that Superman isn't dead at the end of this film, I'm writing this film off my checklist since I refuse to see a film that uses him in such a poor way.

It's the end result that count and him having to die in order to get people to like him is a cheap tactic imho.

It makes my blood boil at times that this is what the character has been reduced to on the big and small screen now.

I envy Batman and Wonder Woman fans because they're about to get the keys to the kingdom with this film and SS/WW's Solo Film.

 

[Lone]

I know. As a fellow Supes fan, I want him(herolee10) to enjoy this. Not long more to go so why not enjoy the ride until his fears are validated?

 

[AnneFan]

Supes being 'killed' and returning to much fanfare would bring the story back to him in a big way. Like how Batman taking on Dent's murders brought the story back to Batman. It'd show Superman is the heartbeat of the overall film. He was doubted, and then embraced.

 

[MrsKent26]

Pretty much sums up his cinematic history and reception doesn't it?lol

But it's definitely agitating, that's for sure.

The character can't be used in "Supergirl" because of this film, which resulted in Superman being portrayed as a poor excuse for a hero and cousin in that show's canon.

And for every fan you find that says that they enjoyed MOS, you'll find another person that says that they didn't like it either.

I think I'm going to make it a goal now to have ZERO expectations as a Superman fan when it comes to films.

Because no matter what people do, the character will get shortchanged. Unless it's revealed by a reliable source that Superman isn't dead at the end of this film, I'm writing this film off my checklist since I refuse to see a film that uses him in such a poor way.

It's the end result that count and him having to die in order to get people to like him is a cheap tactic imho.

It makes my blood boil at times that this is what the character has been reduced to on the big and small screen now.

I envy Batman and Wonder Woman fans because they're about to get the keys to the kingdom with this film and SS/WW's Solo Film.

Just wait and see the film, Herolee. I'm definitely not going to brush off your concerns (I share some of them), but it doesn't make sense to right off this film without seeing it in its proper context.

 

[Herolee10]

I know. As a fellow Supes fan, I want him(herolee10) to enjoy this. Not long more to go so why not enjoy the ride until his fears are validated?

I definitely appreciate your concern on this.

Normally, I'd go with the wait and see game. But there are too many variables (not just these leaked images) that are pointing to the WORST POSSIBLE OUTCOME for me (as a fan) in this film.

Supes being 'killed' and returning to much fanfare would bring the story back to him in a big way. Like how Batman taking on Dent's murders brought the story back to Batman. It'd show Superman is the heartbeat of the overall film. He was doubted, and then embraced.

While I agree with that, isn't the major endgame to set up the Justice League in this universe?

And does Superman really need to die in a film that might end with him having gotten his ass kicked and defeated by Batman? Sure, Superman may turn everyone's bad opinions about him completely around but it wouldn't outweigh the cons of everything that the character had to lose in return.

And wasting his time in JL by focusing on how to revive him (like Neo in Matrix Revolutions) isn't what's best for his character. It robs him of his chance to have a good amount of interactions with the other members.

It's bad enough that it's Batman alone that receives the future warning from the Flash.

Overall, it seems like Superman's character has to give more than what he'll receive.

 

[Dr doomsday]

I know. As a fellow Supes fan, I want him(herolee10) to enjoy this. Not long more to go so why not enjoy the ride until his fears are validated?

If he wants to leave for such a stupid reason let him, someone that intolerant deserves whatever disappointment they get. If he does die which isn't likely and it's done well his role in justice league is done well if not different then it doesn't matter. If his arc builds up to his death and not doing it would hurt the arc then do it. There's plenty that can be done. Having his body disappear at the end of suicide squad hinting at his return in WW. Having his return be a main part of first half or so of justice league, showing the impact on the world, what Superman means. Have his return be what actually unites the team. Done right it could be very meaningful to both the movie and the audiences watching.

A good story is a good story if his death is well done and ripples through the next two movies before his return heralds the justice league then it works it's a good saga that is all about superman his origins, his struggle to become a hero, his sacrifice for the human race, and his ultimate return where he finally becomes a Savior who inspires the entire world and a legion of new heroes. That is an incredible Superman story and make no mistake it's his story. If he honestly think a story like that a story that gave him that kind of journey is disrespectful to the character maybe he doesn't love the character as much as he claims. That would easily be one of the greatest superhero stories ever brought to screen.

He thinks that's bad and he'll just turn his back on them for such petty and stupid reasons without even knowing the story they're telling, then as I already once said he didn't deserve to enjoy the movie or franchise and may as well walk out now, they don't need fans like him who will turn away from the DCEU for no reason, they need fans who are accepting and open minded, if he can't be that then he may as well just forget about it right now rather than later, what difference would it be leave before he sees BVS or leave before he sees JL same thing, saying something is bad without even knowing what the full story is.

I know I'm being harsh but sometimes it's necessary this kind of intolerance to an idea should not be accepted, close minded thinking like that have already ruined many movies. We need to just accept what we are given not dwell on whatever flaws bother us and when the credits roll decide if we liked or not. If superman dies the only thing to think about it is was it well done was it emotionally handled well and did the movie build up to it that's it. If he liked the whole movie then said it was terrible just because Superman died in the last ten minutes then he's not a real fan. I don't use that term often but one thing I do believe is that a real fan will not let one or two mistakes or scenes they don't like ruin a movie for them, a true fan will ignore the few things that bugged them and enjoy the rest. A real fan will only say it's bad if it actually is not fifteen minutes of stuff they don't like but whole thing.

 

[Superchan]

I don't mind superman dying as long as it's done in a tasteful manner, however generally speaking I HATE it when they kill characters just to bring them back in the next episode or issue or sequel, which cheapens the whole thing IMO.
As for BvS well I'm just gonna wait until I see the film before I pass judgement.

 

[matt47]

I don't mind superman dying as long as it's done in a tasteful manner, however generally speaking I HATE it when they kill characters just to bring them back in the next episode or issue or sequel, which cheapens the whole thing IMO.
As for BvS well I'm just gonna wait until I see the film before I pass judgement.

I agree but this is for a whole other reason then just an emotional scene. This is to show what lengths this alien would do for humans. This is how much he loves them and majority of the hate him. This is why I'm cool with it happening, I want to see the worlds reaction to Superman selflessly saving the human race. I want to see Lex and Bruce's reactions the most.

 

[Herolee10]

Just wait and see the film, Herolee. I'm definitely not going to brush off your concerns (I share some of them), but it doesn't make sense to right off this film without seeing it in its proper context.

Well for me personally, it's all about endpoints: from beginning to end.

While execution is important, it's all about where it all leads to imho. If Superman ends up dying and stays dead by the time the credits roll, it wouldn't matter to me on what it brings about because the only thing that would be in my sight is the fact that he died and stayed dead....thus equating to the fact that he'll not have as much time dedicated in building relationships with the other JL members.

The best examples that I have of this would be Thor and Neo.

When the first "Thor" film ended, Thor was still trapped in Asgard. Now while we didn't get any real detailed explanation on how he was able to come back to Earth, he still didn't make his debut until near midway in the film, whereas every other major player was introduced earlier in the film and had a chance to interact with everyone else (building relationships). I think Thor is like ranked #2 when it comes to having the least amount of Screen Time for the Avengers (with Hawkeye being #1)

And then with Neo in "Matrix Revolutions", they spent so much time in the beginning just being trapped in a train station whereas everyone else had better things to do

Plus when you really look at everything that this film has shown thus far, you could take out some of Superman's scenes and it could easily transition into a Batman film without any difficulty since it appears that he has the most tangible material to work with when it comes to arcs and scenarios.

 

[Herolee10]

lol; well it seems like I am really the only major forum user here who has a issue with Superman dying.

Trust me guys, I really wish I could take your guys's approach and just go with the route that if it was done in a classy matter, then I'll be okay with Superman's death.

If i could do that then things would be so much better for me now when it comes to my views on this film.

 

[Lone]

What we've been shown is probably less than 5% of the whole movie though. You shouldn't jump to conclusions with so little to go on.

 

[MrsKent26]

Well for me personally, it's all about endpoints: from beginning to end.

While execution is important, it's all about where it all leads to imho. If Superman ends up dying and stays dead by the time the credits roll, it wouldn't matter to me on what it brings about because the only thing that would be in my sight is the fact that he died and stayed dead....thus equating to the fact that he'll not have as much time dedicated in building relationships with the other JL members.

The best examples that I have of this would be Thor and Neo.

When the first "Thor" film ended, Thor was still trapped in Asgard. Now while we didn't get any real detailed explanation on how he was able to come back to Earth, he still didn't make his debut until near midway in the film, whereas every other major player was introduced earlier in the film and had a chance to interact with everyone else (building relationships). I think Thor is like ranked #2 when it comes to having the least amount of Screen Time for the Avengers (with Hawkeye being #1)

And then with Neo in "Matrix Revolutions", they spent so much time in the beginning just being trapped in a train station whereas everyone else had better things to do

Plus when you really look at everything that this film has shown thus far, you could take out some of Superman's scenes and it could easily transition into a Batman film without any difficulty since it appears that he has the most tangible material to work with when it comes to arcs and scenarios.

I understand the apprehension around superman dying. When I first heard about the possibility, I was unimpressed, to say the least. It could easily come off as a cheap ploy to make people sympathetic to the character in death and thus avoiding the complex characterization needed to make him sympathetic in life. However...if they have written this well...they could do both of the above. He could be a well developed character who's death is then fittingly devastating. That still leaves the problem that we all know he won't stay dead forever, so I'm not sure how much suspense they'll be able to rack up. Regardless, I hope he ain't dead for long for the same reasons as you.

 

[matt47]

What we've been shown is probably less than 5% of the whole movie though. You shouldn't jump to conclusions with so little to go on.

I'm sorry but I hate this excuse so much.
Yeah we've only seen 5%, but that is of neary every scene the movie.

 

[Batmannerism]

Just wait and see the film, Herolee. I'm definitely not going to brush off your concerns (I share some of them), but it doesn't make sense to right off this film without seeing it in its proper context.

I'm very much in the same space. I never like seeing Superman get his ass kicked, especially undeservedly. But, it sounds like he gives as much as he gets in this film.

I'm going to stay positive, and wait until I've seen it to pass judgment.

I honestly can't pick a side, I'm too divided. I hope Supes doesn't die - it's too soon for him to do the full Jesus thing (man, imagine if Jesus had heat vision, the bible would have a very different ending).

Anyway, I'm still in a massive hype bubble - can't wait for it !

 

[Herolee10]

I understand the apprehension around superman dying. When I first heard about the possibility, I was unimpressed, to say the least. It could easily come off as a cheap ploy to make people sympathetic to the character in death and thus avoiding the complex characterization needed to make him sympathetic in life. However...if they have written this well...they could do both of the above. He could be a well developed character who's death is then fittingly devastating. That still leaves the problem that we all know he won't stay dead forever, so I'm not sure how much suspense they'll be able to rack up. Regardless, I hope he ain't dead for long for the same reasons as you.

Well I hope I can learn how to just let it all go soon since having too many expectations (or any) as a Superman fan is not a fun thing when it comes to this cinematic universe. You build up expectations for so long, only for them to slowly be taken away from you. If I ever do end up watching this film before JL comes, it'll probably only be because of 2 reasons:

1. Superman ends up staying alive at the end of the film.lol

OR

2. I've fully accepted that Superman won't have a meaningful role in the DCEU (which I'm already prepping myself for).


Either way, I'm in that state where I'm just slowly starting to accept it.lol

I'm sorry but I hate this excuse so much.
Yeah we've only seen 5%, but that is of neary every scene the movie.

Agreed. The only scenes that we haven't gotten any real glimpse of (that we've heard about existing) are when WW supposedly breaks into Lex's labs, Superman saving Lois in Africa, and the final scene itself.

 

[Lone]

I'm sorry but I hate this excuse so much.
Yeah we've only seen 5%, but that is of neary every scene the movie.

It's not an excuse. It's fact. What we've seen is nowhere near the realm of every scene in the movie.

 

[Herolee10]

It's not an excuse. It's fact. What we've seen is nowhere near the realm of every scene in the movie.

And yet we've seen shots of a lifeless Superman, Diana and Bruce at a cemetery, and a tombstone for Superman so unless we're missing that one TDKR-like pivotal shot of Superman nodding his head at us to reveal that he's alive, I'm pretty sure then that there's a good chance that he bites it in the end.

 

[Dr doomsday]

Well I hope I can learn how to just let it all go soon since having too many expectations (or any) as a Superman fan is not a fun thing when it comes to this cinematic universe. You build up expectations for so long, only for them to slowly be taken away from you. If I ever do end up watching this film before JL comes, it'll probably only be because of 2 reasons:

1. Superman ends up staying alive at the end of the film.lol

OR

2. I've fully accepted that Superman won't have a meaningful role in the DCEU (which I'm already prepping myself for).


Either way, I'm in that state where I'm just slowly starting to accept it.lol



Agreed. The only scenes that we haven't gotten any real glimpse of (that we've heard about existing) are when WW supposedly breaks into Lex's labs, Superman saving Lois in Africa, and the final scene itself.

Saying Superman won't have a meaningful role just because he dies is so narrow minded justice league will likely be a near three hour film, even if you do bring him back over an hour in or even half way you still have close to an hour not including the climax to do something meaningful regarding his bound with the team about the same as the first Avengers. You can give him an arc before he reunites with the league. Superman could be the one who pulls everyone together, inspires the world to fight back. Justice League isn't going to be Avengers it's going to be about more than watching the heroes interact, I want more than that. If Superman is the catalyst for everything instrumental to saving the world and gets his own arc along the way then he was important. If a good story and emotional arc means Superman doesn't have a lot of interaction with cyborg or aquaman then so be it.

 

[AnneFan]

However don't assume he stays dead. I'm sure he'll return triumphantly.

 

[Superchan]

I agree but this is for a whole other reason then just an emotional scene. This is to show what lengths this alien would do for humans. This is how much he loves them and majority of the hate him. This is why I'm cool with it happening, I want to see the worlds reaction to Superman selflessly saving the human race. I want to see Lex and Bruce's reactions the most.

There is no need to kill him to show the extent of his conviction, they can show him getting beaten up badly by doomy only for him to keep getting back up and continue fighting (Rocky balboa style) or you could have him collapse after beating doomsday and his heart goes flatline until batman and wonderwoman find the electric circuits that power the entire city and shock him back to life.

 

[Herolee10]

Saying Superman won't have a meaningful role just because he dies is so narrow minded justice league will likely be a near three hour film, even if you do bring him back over an hour in or even half way you still have close to an hour not including the climax to do something meaningful regarding his bound with the team about the same as the first Avengers. You can give him an arc before he reunites with the league. Superman could be the one who pulls everyone together, inspires the world to fight back. Justice League isn't going to be Avengers it's going to be about more than watching the heroes interact, I want more than that. If Superman is the catalyst for everything instrumental to saving the world and gets his own arc along the way then he was important. If a good story and emotional arc means Superman doesn't have a lot of interaction with cyborg or aquaman then so be it.

If Batman had retired in "The Dark Knight" as opposed to "The Dark Knight Rises", do you think people would have been happy with that?

If The Avengers had been assembled after "Iron Man 1" instead of having solo films and a Iron Man sequel take place first, would people have warmed up as easily to it as they eventually did?

It's all about timing and place and this is neither the place or timing simply because of the fact that this is freaking 2nd film, one that he has to already share the spotlight with Batman, a character that will most likely outshine him in both arc and exposure.

Honestly, I don't know at this point. This isn't, at all, what I wanted or expected from the DCEU.

Was it too much to ask for Snyder to create a followup where he at least allows Superman to make it out of the damn film alive so that he could have more of a tangible role in the JL?

And honestly, I think a lot of the stuff that takes place in this film is pretty much a solid hint of how we can expect things to take shape in the DCEU.

The fact that it's only Batman alone that receives a warning from Future Flash pretty much signifies on how Batman will end up being more important than Superman in the future.

However don't assume he stays dead. I'm sure he'll return triumphantly.

I don't think anyone (including myself) is assuming/nor believes that he'll stay dead.

But then again, I don't think him dying and staying dead for this film really bothers anyone but me at this point.

If this were a solo film, without him having to share the spotlight with Batman,t hen I'd be up for it. Hell if this were like his 5th film (equivalent to how Civil War is like Captain America's 5th Film in the MCU) then I'd be open to it as well.

But doing it in his second film, let alone one where he has to share the spotlight with Batman (who will most likely rob most of it from him) is really a low blow.

Well on a brighter note, at least I didn't buy my tickets in advance. No point in wasting money for a film that I most likely won't see.

 

[Lone]

And yet we've seen shots of a lifeless Superman, Diana and Bruce at a cemetery, and a tombstone for Superman so unless we're missing that one TDKR-like pivotal shot of Superman nodding his head at us to reveal that he's alive, I'm pretty sure then that there's a good chance that he bites it in the end.

The one pivotal moment in this movie is when we finally learn just who the hell Dan Amboyer is playing.

 

[Herolee10]

Honestly, I think I'm going to call it quits soon unless some good and reassuring news comes up because this is really too much. I've waited so freaking long to see a version of Superman that I can enjoy grace the big screen where he'd lead the JL and be done correctly.

But with Batman getting so much more and with it looking like Superman is the one that gets screwed in the end, it's pointless to have expectations and hope in this product.

And for my naysayers out there that find this amusing, I don't give a rat's ass on what you think since anyone who takes pleasure in seeing others go through discomfort is garbage to me.

I mean is it too freaking much to ask for a Superman film that's done correctly, where he doesn't die in a film that will supposedly involve him getting his ass handed to him by Batman?

I could have honestly accepted this if this had taken AFTER Superman had already led the JL to a few victories and where Superman was allowed to shine on his own for another film.

But since that's apparently such a high price, well I guess it really isn't worth investing time and money in this product.

I hope I'm wrong about this in the end, I want to be wrong because I like Henry as Superman. And seeing as how there aren't versions of the character available in other medium, this is pretty much it.

 

[Dr doomsday]

Can I make a suggestion put your Superman biasm aside for a moment and actually listen to what I'm saying. This is deep down Superman's story MOS, BVS completely revolves around him. Showing the effects of his death is part of his story, his effect on the world both in life and in death how does the world handle themselves without him. Can the heroes manage. This is Superman's story but it's also the story of the world he lives in. Now I know what you're going to say save that for later why, I hate that mentality once you remove all the filler and tweak a few things around you can condense Marvel into about six movies, because they thrive on the idea of save it for the sequel.

There is no reason to do that no reason to hold back, JL should be the conclusion of a story the end of the story began in MOS. Originally there wasn't a cinematic universe, there was just a trilogy MOS BVS JL. That was the plan now going by that plan does it make sense to go all out to tell Superman's story to it's fullest, his impact on the world and what they're like without him? Showing the world embrace him as an ideal, MOS, racing behind him BVS to an extent, he dies. Struggling without him they will stumble they will fall. Superman returns but in time they will join you in the sun.

Imagine this ending to the trilogy jorel's speech is recapped as we go through the full journey of the three movies showing each thing I mentioned then at the end of it we see superman with the league who he inspired along with the rest of the world. We saw them meet him fear him only to watch him die for them, they lived without him struggled only for him to return and inspire a legion to protect the world and humanity to be the best it can be. That is the ultimate superman story. That is not him getting screwed wake up and pull your fanboy head out of your butt. (Spiderman did quit in the second film no one complained and batman retiring in TDK wouldn't of bothered me good downer ending, the only people it would bother are the whiny close minded fans like no offense you.)