Triple H was obviously trying to get a lot of controversial heat with that promo. It would of been forgivable if the battle plan was to put Booker T over at Mania. Instead it leads me to wonder what they really think behind closed doors. There is just no way this should of happened. I think Vince's biased against WCW might of been the culprit , but even Booker winning and then dropping it back on Raw would of been a better option.
If you look back at old promos some of the wrestlers say things that would never be acceptable today. Society has become more PC. I never saw Hogan say brown clown , but nothing would surprise me. I'd say it even sounds tame compared to some of the angles and things they've done in WWE over the years. They like to push buttons.
I wouldn't have had much of a problem with it IF Triple H had gotten what was coming to him. If Booker T had somehow proven him wrong and proven all people that think like that fools. Wrestlings a morality play and this was one time where WWE messed that up big time.
If they hadn't brought the thinly veiled racism into it I could understand HHH winning but since they did bring it in a man of color, Booker T specifically, should have been the guy to prove HHH wrong.
This kind of stuff is nothing new to get heat but it requires a certain outcome.
Originally Posted by CalaveraOriginally Posted by
wwe went through an era where it tried to push buttons and try to force their horrible stuff down peoples throats(jbl title reign anyone?) thankfully it went away but 2 wrestlers had to die to make it happen
Sadly it didn't even stop after Eddie died because we got over a year of Eddiesploitation. Oddly enough, in hindsight anyway, one of those storylines involved Benoit.
Originally Posted by
The Sage
- WWE confirmed on last night's episode of Main Event that The Undertaker vs. Dean Ambrose will indeed air on Friday's episode of SmackDown.
http://www.pwpix.net/pwpixnews/headlines/368886540.php
Thats great news! I'll make sure I'm watching. This could mean some great things for The Shield and Ambrose. The fact that Taker is going one on one with him makes me wonder if they are setting something up down the road.
This is going to really be something to keep an eye on. Taker never sticks around post Mania these days but now he is. I'm sure they need him with Punk gone but the fact that he's working with the Shield and specifically doing a one on one match with Ambrose speaks volumes.
Originally Posted by Scar Predator
Around the 2:40 mark. I don't necessarily have a problem with race being used as part of a story line, it just has to be done carefully. Villains on all kinds of TV shows are racist, but there are ramifications to their ignorance. Hogan's arrogance led to a loss to Atlas, and that's what should have happened to HHH.
EDIT: A friend of mine, 30+ year fan like me, said that Ric Flair once called Butch Reed a "monkey" in a promo. Yikes.
Thats what I'm talking about as far as context. While what Hogan said wasn't as bad as Triple H's entire promo running Booker T down was Hogan at least got was coming to him. It was a storyline and Hogan was getting heat and he ended up losing like heels should. That makes sense to me. Haitch retained on the grandest stage of em all.
Its like when Harley Race said a "boy" like Ron Simmons used to carry his bags. Well Ron Simmons went on to beat Lex Luger and win the world title in WCW. Wow, he show that lowdown heel Harley Race and thus it got an even BIGGER cheer.
Originally Posted by Donnie Darko
Yep. I remember watching the ppv where he beat Eddie for the belt, and my brother and I were like "if Bradshaw wins this match, it's a joke. There is no way Bradshaw can be champ." I was pissed. Then JBL made me a believer.
Yeah JBL was a natural at being an a**hole just like Bully Ray is as TNA champion now. Thats why JBL was chosen to be a (longer than usual running) transitional champion.
He wasn't a top flight heel like Ric Flair but for the part he had to play JBL was very good.
Originally Posted by Hunter Rider
Wow I missed a lot. For clarification my point on Hogan vs Triple H was not a case of who has buried more people or who is the bigger ass**le.
It was simply my view that whilst in a feud Hogan understood the value of building his opponent and selling him as a threat, especially if he was facing a beast, Triple H only cares about talking up how badass he is and making snide insider jokes. In fact Triple H even goes out of his way to belittle people he's not even feuding with, devaluing guys like Sheamus and Barrett for zero reason, Hogan never did that because it never made good business sense.
Exactly. Hogan was an insecure jerk protecting his spot. With HHH he doesn't even have to WORRY about protecting his spot anymore and he still does stuff like this. Thats the difference. Even now you don't see Hogan doing on the air the things HHH does.
The big problem with Hogan now is he's such an egomaniac all the major storylines are revolving around him way too much.
When you look back at what HHH did to Barrett before Wrestlemania it was pointless and uneeded. The only gain was just to make HHH look cool. Which was unneeded. Barrett looked like a scrub who didn't even get punched in the face like a man deserves.
I'm gonna watch some of the stuff with Hogan and Lesnar again but I don't even think Hogan talked down Brock the way HHH did before this latest match. If Hogan had had someone like Lesnar 25 years ago he'd have sold him like a major threat until he had him job and moved on to something else.
The "Ultimate Fighter" jabs Vince threw at Heyman were the kind of stuff the McMahons love to do to get themselves off.
To the other point about Hogan, Vince once said that he could have used Greg Valentine in the Hulkamania role to build sports entertainment around, I was never a Hogan fan but I call utter bull***t! As Metallo said a large portion of what made Hogan a star was in place in the AWA, Vince just refined it and presented it through the bright lights and big spectacle of his vision. Hogan has an aura and charisma few can match, he was the figurehead of the two boom periods in the business and is simply the greatest star in the history of professional wrestling.
On the Triple H vs Booker situation, I think the call was made by Vince as he had signed Goldberg right on Mania and he needed to keep Triple H strong as that was seen as the money title program down the line for Raw.
Thats what I've always read too. But I think even if HHH won they could have made Booker look stronger in losing. Dodn't it only take one pedigree at the end? Or maybe like bullets said Booker could have won the belt only to lose it the next night on Raw after HHH screwed Booker out of it in mega heel fashion. They could have worked something in where Booker was stripped of the belt unfairly and it was given back to HHH. Then we hate HHH even more until Goldbergs music hits.
Booker could have helped Goldberg by foiling Triple H's schemes to cheat later on in their feud.
As for The Hammer....I'm a fan of Valentine...but it wouldn't have worked. Hogan had just the right kind of superheroic look. Friendly and approachable enough but kind of rugged and with strong large physique. It was the bigger is better 1980s. Someone like Hogan made sense to be the WWF hero in Reagan America. He also had the charisma. He also had the work ethic beyond just in ring stuff. I mean the travel and meeting the crowds and doing interviews, etc. The kind of stuff champ and representative of WWE needs to be good at.
Also, ook at some of the cinema heroes at the time. Stallone's Rambo, Arnold's John Matrix and Conan, Reeve's Superman, etc. Big and/or strong looking guys you could root for. You liked them.
And in turn Austin was the right guy for the late 90s. We had a profesionally sucessful but morally ambiguous man in the White House. That described a lot of the top Attitude Era characters. It was the era of crash tv and sleazy nighttime soaps and trashy but hilarious wild comedies. Stufff like Jerry Springer and Married with Children and The Farelly Bros movies ruled.
Taker must see something in Ambrose to give him this match.
He probably sees what a lot of people see. Especially here. I think this will be a good trial run to test out a LOT of things for the future. I hope it goes well because if it does it could mean great things down the line.
Originally Posted by
Hunter Rider
Is that a steering wheel she's holding? If so I want to be it in that picture at that time. Badly.
Originally Posted by Scar Predator
The ratings over the '94-early '96 period don't support that. Hogan purged WCW of a lot of stars to bring in his friends, essentially changing one set of viewers for another. A lot of loyal WCW viewers left because Hulk treated so many wrestlers with disrespect.
You're missing the point that like ANY good character or draw they still need good stories and good creative. Hall and Nash and the NWO were the catalyst for that. Hogan was still a draw his act was just played out...especially in WCW. When he was involved with something worthwhile that changed.
Rock's a draw but he's not making major differences across the board for WWE now either. And before he and Austin even left as semi regular performers WWE's ratings and buyrates were slipping.
There wasn't enough good creative material anyone could utilize to drive interest.
And while a Greg Valentine type might not have worked in the '80s WWF boom, any large bodybuilder would have. Had Vince had Luger, Goldberg, or Sid, he still could have marketed his cartoon superman. Vince made us all believe that ring work didn't matter (because Hulk was bumbling and lazy) and that just ranting and raving was ok, because Hulk essentially did the same interview each and every time.
Without Hulk, Vince's first boom still happens. It may have taken longer, and it may not have been as big until Vince found his construct. Without Vince, Terry Bollea is a trivia question as who was the big guy that played Thunderlips.
You keep missing the point here. Hogans sucess was about more than his build. It had nothing to do with how many moves he could do in the ring either. He didn't need them. Hogan was there at the right time but he was ALSO the right guy. Just any other big guy wouldn't have worked
Its also about mindset and attitude and commitment. Most of the guys you listed didn't have most or any of those down like Hogan did. There have been a lot of problems with Sid over the years. Goldberg likes the business but only to a point. And lets be real even Hogan knew how to work better than Goldberg even though he wasn't the athlete Goldnberg was.
Luger didn't even like the business sometimes. It was like he was ashamed of it. Theres no way he would have been able to run the schedule Hogan did without blowing a fuse at someone. You have to WANT to be friendly with a lot of people and be the top guy and even now fans who go to see Hogan at events say he treats them pretty well. Luger wasn't nearly as good at schmoozing with the people. He also wasn't as good of a babyface worker.
And lets not forget Vince TRIED to push Luger as his top guy in the 90s. It failed. This was before WCW became a major threat. Even Bret did better. Luger didn't work as well or get over as much as a WWF style face. He worked better as a face in WCW because they were presented differently. He wasn't the cartoon superhero Hogan was. Even Sting was presented a little differently and brought something different to the table physically speaking.
And Hogan wasn't bumbling and lazy. Get off it. He wasn't some super worker but the little he did do he did pretty well. Not every big guy has to work a match like a technical master in order to be sound in the ring. Maybe Hogan wasn't so much laszy as he knew what the American audience wanted back then. It sure didn't HURT WWF's sucess did it?
Hogan NEEDED Vince...but at the same time Vince NEEDED Hogan. Few others back then could have stepped into that spot and been as sucessful. That sucess was about more than the sum of the parts or some easy to replicate formula.
Originally Posted by Hunter Rider
Without the Hogan heel turn the NWO is a four to six (at best) month angle, his heel turn and leading of the group is what made that angle an absolute monster, without it there are no Monday Night Wars.
Hall and Nash were the catalysts. Halls initial arrival through the crowd was perfect because it set the tone immediatly. This was different. The NWO angle needed them to make it cool. But it needed Hogan to make it legitimate. If they were "Outsiders" who was STILL seen as a bigger outsider than Hogan by the WCW faithful?
Were these guys invaders form "Up north?" Who respresented that company up north more than Hogan? Hogan was not only the best guy but the right guy to be the third man for so many reasons.
His turn made perfect sense because the fans did "give up" on him even after he preached all that was good and carried that hero banner. It was logical and natural. He also had the star power and mainstream recognition that would grab the most attention for the turn and the angle.
And the concept as a whole was perfect. The black and white colors, the video promos, etc. All of it.
Hogan, Hall, and Nash, and the concept all mixed together in a kind of perfect storm to take on the pro wrestling industry. You take any part out it doesn't work as well. That goes for Hogan too.
Originally Posted by Antman
Was that really all there was to it? Because I didn't know any kids who liked "Made in the USA" Lex Luger
Exactly. Luger was a natural at being a villain. I didn't by Mr. America Lex Luger at all and I was still pretty young. The Narcissist gimmick fit him like a glove despite having some cheesy elements. The Lex Express didn't ring true. Lugers almost always worked better as a heel and when he was a face WCW knew how to use him better than WWF.
Vince cut Lugers push because it didn't get over long term. In the long run Yoko was just waaaaay more impressive as a heel than Luger was as a face...which is really bad business wise if you want the whole thing to work
And Hunters right about Arnold too. Not an amazing actor but he had charisma and screen presence coming out of his pores.
Lita looks nice.
