Superman Returns Was Superman Really Out of Character in SR?

[dr collossus]

Superman never made himself responsible for humans..ever. He can leave whenever he feels like it....and has done to help other planets. His responsibilities strecth beyond just Earth!!

I was referring to his parental responsibilities...in no way could what I said have possibly referred to his leaving Earth, that happened before the movie even started...the movie starts with him coming back.

 

[LexCorp]

I was referring to his parental responsibilities...in no way could what I said have possibly referred to his leaving Earth, that happened before the movie even started...the movie starts with him coming back.

Oh my bad.
He has kids on other planets lol

 

[Angeloz]

Superman never made himself responsible for humans..ever. He can leave whenever he feels like it....and has done to help other planets. His responsibilities strecth beyond just Earth!!

Shhh. You're naughty pointing out parochial humans. He's not allowed to save anyone else in the universe. Didn't you know?

Angeloz

 

[Angeloz]

Oh my bad.
He has kids on other planets lol

LOL.

Angeloz

 

[dr collossus]

Oh my bad.
He has kids on other planets lol

lol

 

[hammy]

I THINK LUTHOR WAS THE WORST PART OF THE MOVIE. IT JUST SUCKED. THAT IS NOT LUTHOR AT ALL. Even Smallville gets Luthor right.

That's exactly how I felt. What a boring Lex. And Kevin Spacey, a brilliant actor, was reduced to playing the most boring Lex / villan, ever. I wouldn't be surprised if he never wanted to get near another Superman film.

For me, with regards to Superman being out of character in this movie, what he does isn't quite so important as how he does it. Yeah he made mistakes, but he has always made mistakes, and as I have said in a nother thread, it's how he handles his mistakes that defines him (although I do also feel that he handled them badly in this film, and not just for a superman, but for any man).

This is beautifully said.

 

[X Knight]

agreed, that's a very good point.

What SR lacked, for me, was a real sense that Supes felt/realized that he really messed up. Yah, I know that he said he was sorry to Lois on the rooftop....and others here say that there were subtle indications.

Perhaps that is true. But, for me, I just didn't FEEL that Supes really acknowledged/took responsibility for the entire mess he created. It's like he says...."I'm sorry" and that's the end of it.....he goes off doing his Superman business as usual.

I contrast that with Superman 2 ( Donner's Cut ) and Spider-man 3:

Superman 2 ( Donner's Cut ):

There's a scene where the powerless Supes is talking with Jor-El and Supes ADMITS that he made a mistake, that he let everyone down by his decision. This is also the scene where Jor-El gives the "Son becomes the Father...Father becomes the Son" speech and gives up his "essence" to restore Superman's power.

You can tell and FEEL from this scene that Superman/Clark really feels remorse for the mistake he made.

Spider-man 3:

In Spidey 3, Peter turns into a jerk as he is consumed by arrogance, vengeance, and the symbiote suit. Peter ends up hurting the ppl he loves the most ( namely MJ ) and this comes to a culmination in the bar scene.

After Peter shows off his dancing skills ( to impress Gwen and spite MJ ), Peter and MJ get into an argument and Peter shoves MJ to the ground. This act snaps Peter out of his state of mind.....and the look on his face clearly shows that he realizes that he is turning into a monster....that he has to get rid of the symbiote suit and its evil influence.

Also, at the end, when Sandman confronts Peter to ask for forgiveness and tell his side of the story.......Peter forgives him while also admitting that he has made mistakes in his life too........that he has hurt ppl too.......(Peter also admits that he has hurt MJ to his Aunt).

Both of these movies show that our beloved heros are not perfect......that they are capable of making mistakes.......but.....more importantly.....that they ACKNOWLEDGE AND LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES!!!

And, for me, that's what SR really lacked. Perhaps it was due to poor editing....but the movie never really took the time to allow Supes to ponder and reflect on the mistakes that he made. It's like he returned and BOOM we're shuffled from scene to the next. There really was never a scene where we saw and FELT Supes thinking to himself..."Y'know what Kal-el!! You really SCREWED THINGS UP!!!! How are you going to FIX THIS!"

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

No, he didn't! Not even remotely! He just walked away. How is that taking responsibility?

He has obligations to his home planet as well not just earth, i think he was right to go, as there could easily have been survivors living on chunks of the planet in poverty.

Plus, he didnt know Lois was pregnant.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

agreed, that's a very good point.

What SR lacked, for me, was a real sense that Supes felt/realized that he really messed up. Yah, I know that he said he was sorry to Lois on the rooftop....and others here say that there were subtle indications.

Perhaps that is true. But, for me, I just didn't FEEL that Supes really acknowledged/took responsibility for the entire mess he created. It's like he says...."I'm sorry" and that's the end of it.....he goes off doing his Superman business as usual.

I contrast that with Superman 2 ( Donner's Cut ) and Spider-man 3:

Superman 2 ( Donner's Cut ):

There's a scene where the powerless Supes is talking with Jor-El and Supes ADMITS that he made a mistake, that he let everyone down by his decision. This is also the scene where Jor-El gives the "Son becomes the Father...Father becomes the Son" speech and gives up his "essence" to restore Superman's power.

You can tell and FEEL from this scene that Superman/Clark really feels remorse for the mistake he made.

Spider-man 3:

In Spidey 3, Peter turns into a jerk as he is consumed by arrogance, vengeance, and the symbiote suit. Peter ends up hurting the ppl he loves the most ( namely MJ ) and this comes to a culmination in the bar scene.

After Peter shows off his dancing skills ( to impress Gwen and spite MJ ), Peter and MJ get into an argument and Peter shoves MJ to the ground. This act snaps Peter out of his state of mind.....and the look on his face clearly shows that he realizes that he is turning into a monster....that he has to get rid of the symbiote suit and its evil influence.

Also, at the end, when Sandman confronts Peter to ask for forgiveness and tell his side of the story.......Peter forgives him while also admitting that he has made mistakes in his life too........that he has hurt ppl too.......(Peter also admits that he has hurt MJ to his Aunt).

Both of these movies show that our beloved heros are not perfect......that they are capable of making mistakes.......but.....more importantly.....that they ACKNOWLEDGE AND LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES!!!

And, for me, that's what SR really lacked. Perhaps it was due to poor editing....but the movie never really took the time to allow Supes to ponder and reflect on the mistakes that he made. It's like he returned and BOOM we're shuffled from scene to the next. There really was never a scene where we saw and FELT Supes thinking to himself..."Y'know what Kal-el!! You really SCREWED THINGS UP!!!! How are you going to FIX THIS!"

The difference is though, when Superman say's sorry, its not like me or you saying it, you KNOW he means it, and seemingly so does Lois, as she forgives him by that point in the movie.

Plus he has noone to admit he made a mistake to really does, when he goes to the fortress and discovers the crystals are gone, IMO he went there to talk to Jor-El about his problems.

 

[superbaby]

he might have superpower but he is so weak innerly in SR. i don't like it, some might like this concept though.

 

[El Payaso]

I contrast that with Superman 2 ( Donner's Cut ) and Spider-man 3:

I agree. I never felt like Raimi acknowledged/took responsibility for the entire mess he created.

 

[dr collossus]

He has obligations to his home planet as well not just earth, i think he was right to go, as there could easily have been survivors living on chunks of the planet in poverty.

Plus, he didnt know Lois was pregnant.

Did you not read my post above? I'm not talking about something that happened in the past that wasn't even in this movie! I'm talking about the end of the film.

 

[El Payaso]

No, he didn't! Not even remotely! He just walked away. How is that taking responsibility?

At that time no Lois or Superman knew about Lane's pregnancy.

 

[SuperDaniel]

All i have to say about this discussion is

Watch the episode of Lois & Clark BIG GIRLS DONT FLY.

This is how Superman was supposed to act in the beginning of SR.

The epsiode has a lot of the same themes of SR. Probably all of them.

Superman has to go to Krypton because its a problem bigger than Earths.

Lois & Superman have a serious relationship before his departure.

Now check the episode and compare the movie.

What Superman did in the episode and DID NOT DO in the movie that makes us still have this ongoing discussion about Superman being out of character or not.

People complain about Lois & Clark, these so called Superman fans, but they cant even know when a person acts right or wrong in a relationship.

 

[dr collossus]

At that time no Lois or Superman knew about Lane's pregnancy.

I can't believe I have to spell this out again...read some of the other posts on this page.

 

[mego joe]

The difference is though, when Superman say's sorry, its not like me or you saying it, you KNOW he means it, and seemingly so does Lois, as she forgives him by that point in the movie.

I don't think it comes off that strongly in the movie though. THere's so much 'subtlety' that it doesn't fit with the extremes and depth of emotion that should be conveyed in this type of story.

Plus he has noone to admit he made a mistake to really does,

Ma Kent and I would think Lois especially.

 

[mego joe]

At that time no Lois or Superman knew about Lane's pregnancy.

Originally Posted by AVEITWITHJAMON


Plus, he didnt know Lois was pregnant.

I still can't get over the fact that some people think that it matters that he didn't know she was pregnant, like it's an excuse or reason that absolves him from his responsibilities.

Are we only responsible for things we know about? Aren't we morally and ethically responsible based on right and wrong and not just if we know about it?

He knew he was having sex with her, and he knew it was wrong to leave w/o saying goodbye.

This is the most confounding thing about this situation to me.

Superman has a moral and ethical responsibility towards Lois based on the sexual nature of their relationship and it doesn't mean beans whether or not he knew she was pregnant.

 

[dr collossus]

Superman has a moral and ethical responsibility towards Lois based on the sexual nature of their relationship and it doesn't mean beans whether or not he knew she was pregnant.

And even that doens't matter because at the end of the movie he knew he had a kid and he still just walked away. This is not how Superman would have handled the situation at all, and this is why he was out of character in this film.

Plus the whole 'father-son' speech that he quotes from Jor-El from the Superman: The Movie was completely out of context and the fact that Singer even used it here just goes to show that he didn't understand it's actual meaning and significance in it's original context. PLUS Jor-El says it to his baby son as he places him into the spaceship, so Kal-El would never have heard this speech as an adult and would not have remembered it.

And, yeah yeah, I know, 'vague history'...whatever, that's just more excuse making if you ask me.

 

[Angeloz]

How do you know he just walked away? They couldn't have a conversation because Jason was awake. So I think it would be better if it was done later on.

Angeloz

 

[dr collossus]

How do you know he just walked away? They couldn't have a conversation because Jason was awake. So I think it would be better if it was done later on.

Angeloz

So what? Maybe it will get picked up later on, we'll have to wait and see, but in the mean time the audience has been left thinking that Superman is walking away. So unless you've seen the script for the next movie, that's where we are at this stage.

Plus, if Singer wants to try and pretend he understands the history of the character by throwing in random references to other material, that would have been the perfect opportunity to use the 'We really need to talk' lines from SII. But he didn't, he just left it with Superman walking away.

 

[Angeloz]

I thought he flew.

By the way I disagree with you but doubt I'll convince you otherwise.

Angeloz

 

[dr collossus]

"Superman flew? I don't believe you!"

No, you won't convince me otherwise, but I'm a little unsure what it is you don't agree with. I basically described what happened in the movie.

 

[Angeloz]

That he walked away as you put it. I grant you it wasn't resolved what would happen but that doesn't mean he "walked away". If at the end of a fairytale two people marry. Does that mean I should assume they died from a rat plague that night.

NB: I'm tired and feeling silly. That's why I didn't want to debate (tiredness).

Angeloz

 

[El Payaso]

[/i]

I still can't get over the fact that some people think that it matters that he didn't know she was pregnant, like it's an excuse or reason that absolves him from his responsibilities.

Nobody said so.

[/i]Are we only responsible for things we know about? Aren't we morally and ethically responsible based on right and wrong and not just if we know about it?

He knew he was having sex with her, and he knew it was wrong to leave w/o saying goodbye.

This is the most confounding thing about this situation to me.

For me too. How is saying good-bye related to the fact she was pregnant?

If he said good-bye that's like taking responnsibility for his future son? Or we're just trying to put everything in the same sack?

[/i]Superman has a moral and ethical responsibility towards Lois based on the sexual nature of their relationship and it doesn't mean beans whether or not he knew she was pregnant.

I was merely talking about the son. If he knew Lois was pregnant, he would have probably stayed. In fact Superman is sure that if he had said good-bye he wouldn't have gone, skipping his duty to krypton.

And even that doens't matter because at the end of the movie he knew he had a kid and he still just walked away.

No, he expressed Lois he was going to be there.

As we all know, it's not like he'll move in next weekend.

This is not how Superman would have handled the situation at all, and this is why he was out of character in this film.

Please, tell us how.

Plus the whole 'father-son' speech that he quotes from Jor-El from the Superman: The Movie was completely out of context and the fact that Singer even used it here just goes to show that he didn't understand it's actual meaning and significance in it's original context.

Please tell us how a speech can't be used again by a different character giving it a new meaning. Tell us how is this fobidden in literature and scriptwriting.

PLUS Jor-El says it to his baby son as he places him into the spaceship, so Kal-El would never have heard this speech as an adult and would not have remembered it.

Yeah, God forbid magic in movies.

Unless it was recorded in those crystals huh. Mh, maybe if we stop hating... answers will come.

And, yeah yeah, I know, 'vague history'...whatever, that's just more excuse making if you ask me.

And this Superman concept... it sounds like an excuse to tell fantastic fictional stories that couldn't happen in reality... if you ask me.

So what? Maybe it will get picked up later on, we'll have to wait and see,

Then... wait and see, before talking this much.

but in the mean time the audience has been left thinking that Superman is walking away.

Not at all. He said he'll be around in a meaningful way. He meant more than what he verbally said. Which is very common in people you know.

So unless you've seen the script for the next movie, that's where we are at this stage.

Or unless you can process things like "I'm always around" as "I'm just walking away".

Plus, if Singer wants to try and pretend he understands the history of the character by throwing in random references to other material, that would have been the perfect opportunity to use the 'We really need to talk' lines from SII. But he didn't, he just left it with Superman walking away.

Superman is coming from death. Richard doesn't know Jason is not his son. Lois and Superman's situation is still not 100% good. Superman will just wait and see the best moment to talk about it. If I was him I'd think Jason is better with Lois and Richard since he can't provide him a normal life - which he can't provide to himself - and by being close to the kid he's dooming him to be the aim of his enemies.

 

[mego joe]

Nobody said so.

Sure seems like it.

For me too. How is saying good-bye related to the fact she was pregnant?

It's not, it's the nature of their relationship which obligated Superman to explain his actions to Lois and say goodbye.

If he said good-bye that's like taking responnsibility for his future son?

Yes, and it's the point I've been trying to make all along. If Superamn says goodbye and explains himself to Lois- He is telling her that he CARES and is STILL emotionally committed to her, even though he can't be physically with her right now. If he is committed to her and he can tell her goodbye and explain himself, it also keeps him committed not only emotionally to Lois but the fruits of their relationship as well.

(Just like soldiers going off to war, remember that point?)

Do you think Lois would have moved on so quickly had she known the truth?

Or we're just trying to put everything in the same sack?

The stuff in that sack is inherently interelated. REmember my whole diatribe on sexual responsibility a week or so ago? Remember all that? That is the backbone of my argument.

YOu have a certain moral and ethical resonsibility and obligation toward the person with whom you are a sexual relationship. A person is morally and ethically obligated towards that person and the fruits of that relationship whether or not procreation is the desired out come. It just comes witht the territory.

I was merely talking about the son. If he knew Lois was pregnant, he would have probably stayed. In fact Superman is sure that if he had said good-bye he wouldn't have gone, skipping his duty to krypton.

And the other part of the incorrect characterization- not knowing about the pregnancy is the only way he would leave, but the fact that seeing Lois cripples him from his other responsibilities (to Krypton and his heritage) is just incorect. He's not that weak minded or emotionally fragile. It's just wrong.

BTW- it all goes in that same sack. THe name of that sack is Moral and Ethical Responsibility.

No, he expressed Lois he was going to be there.

The execution of that scene with the 'I'm always around' line was just lame. THere is not a lot of conviction in that scene to tell that he REALLY means it.

As we all know, it's not like he'll move in next weekend.

THat would be funny though.

Please, tell us how.

I'll let dr. collosus follow up, I was just jumping in a bit after I responded to my quoted ideas.