Why Can't DC Get it right? - Part 1

[StormC]

I think you're overreacting a bit. Snyder is much more proven than Jon Favreau or Peyton Read or Alan Taylor or The Russo Brothers or Joe Johnston. In terms of box office credibility, he's more of a "professional" than any MCU director pre-MCU. Especially Whedon and the Russos.

Snyder isn't really a box office credibility, though. He hasn't had a smash hit since 300. Post-300 pre-MOS, he only did so-so in the BO and either average or subpar critically. While Whedon may not have been proven in film, he had a huge built-in following with both fans and critics with his work on television and other mediums, while Snyder has been divisive at best for a long time.

 

[jmc]

I think it would've been the wrong choice to do a Trinity movie before Justice League. I think it would've dampened the excitement for Justice League. A big part to why there was such a huge excitement for The Avengers was because we were gonna see characters that we love interact for the first time. If Iron Man, Captain America and Thor, or Hulk, had already been in a movie together, The Avengers wouldn't have felt so special.

Under my proposal you're only seeing part of the characters for the first time. The first stage brings together Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, the biggest superhero icons in the world, the second stage brings together the rest of the Justice League. It's a two-part build. Marvel could never have done that, they had to go full Avengers first time around with all their characters.

 

[Raiden]

Under my proposal you're only seeing part of the characters for the first time. The first stage brings together Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, the biggest superhero icons in the world, the second stage brings together the rest of the Justice League. It's a two-part build. Marvel could never have done that, they had to go full Avengers first time around with all their characters.

Exactly. And they didn't have their most famous superhero, Spider-Man, nor their second most popular which was Wolverine. Imagine if DC had to do JL without Superman and Batman. People don't give Marvel a lot of credit nowadays, but what they achieved was monumental.

 

[Loki882]

Honestly seeing a full-blown Trinity movie would have been more appealing to me than just "Batman and Superman, with Wonder Woman haphazardly shoehorned in there somewhere." Which is basically what we got. And no, I also don't think that it would have hurt JL. If anything, it might have helped because lots of people would have been thinking "well that was cool, so I cannot wait to see what happens when the rest of the heroes show up, it'll be even more awesome."

 

[Whatupman]

Under my proposal you're only seeing part of the characters for the first time. The first stage brings together Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, the biggest superhero icons in the world, the second stage brings together the rest of the Justice League. It's a two-part build. Marvel could never have done that, they had to go full Avengers first time around with all their characters.

Honestly seeing a full-blown Trinity movie would have been more appealing to me than just "Batman and Superman, with Wonder Woman haphazardly shoehorned in there somewhere." Which is basically what we got. And no, I also don't think that it would have hurt JL. If anything, it might have helped because lots of people would have been thinking "well that was cool, so I cannot wait to see what happens when the rest of the heroes show up, it'll be even more awesome."

But Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman being so popular is why I think it would be a mistake to have a Trinity movie before Justice League. That would make the Trinity movie the main event, the Avengers, and Justice League would become more like Avengers: AoU. The trinity are the most popular and seeing them interact for the first time would be an amazing thing, and in my opinion, should happen in the main event, Justice League. Otherwise Justice League won't feel as special as it could have been.

 

[jmc]

You're discounting the rest of the Justice League characters though.

 

[Whatupman]

But you said it yourself, Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman are the biggest superhero icons. To see them share the screen for the first time is something special, something that Justice League then wouldn't have.

 

[jmc]

But you said it yourself, Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman are the biggest superhero icons. To see them share the screen for the first time is something special, something that Justice League then wouldn't have.

Of course, but the problem is once you do JL you can't really build anywhere from there as Marvel showed with Avengers 2. What I'm saying is both a Trinity movie and JL movie would have been big enough and special enough in their own rights. You build up to Trinity, then you build up again to JL. JL remains special because it's not just about Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman in that movie.

 

[Whatupman]

Of course, but the problem is once you do JL you can't really build anywhere from there as Marvel showed with Avengers 2. What I'm saying is both a Trinity movie and JL movie would have been big enough and special enough in their own rights. You build up to Trinity, then you build up again to JL. JL remains special because it's not just about Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman in that movie.

I see what you're saying, and you might be right, I honestly don't know. There's a reason to why I'm not in charge, but if I was, I would probably do it like this:

Like you, I would start with Wonder Woman. Then follow it with The Flash. Aquaman comes after, and Justice League after that. I think it makes sense to introduce Batman and Superman in Justice League, considering everyone already know their history. I would use the solo movies before Justice League to build up the characters that the audience isn't so familiar with. They know of them, but they don't really know them. After Justice League, I would give solo movies to Batman and Superman, and also sequels to Wonder Woman, The Flash and Aquaman, depending on how the reception to their first movies were.

I would wait with the sequel to Justice League for quite some time, and contrary to what Marvel did with the Captain America sequels and the next Thor movie, I would not put other Justice Leaguers in each others movies. I think if you keep the audience waiting for Justice League 2, and don't jam the characters into each others solo movies, when Justice League 2 finally comes, it won't feel like just another Justice League movie. It would feel like something special again. After the wait, the audience would be hungry to watch the characters they love interact with each other again.

 

[writer0327]

Personally, I will forever stand by the decision to go straight to Justice League. There is no one "right" way to build a cinematic universe.

This may be a correct statement, however, as the old adage goes, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating..."

If the process DC employs fails to come close to the critical and financial success of Marvel, then you can say whereas there may not be one right way, there is a better way.

And isn't that really the problem at this point? DC has largely failed in many ways to get it's CU off the ground, even though they've had much longer, and the presentation of their core character of Superman is mostly divisive. Meanwhile, Marvel has taken minor characters and made them megastars.

 

[Erzengel]

Whether SS, WW or JL are good or not isn't going to wash BvS taste out of most people's mouths.

 

[writer0327]

I agree with those who say Batman, WW, and Supes should have gotten their individual films first, then a Trinity film, then JLA. With those individual films you can introduce the minor JLA characters much like Marvel did.

 

[sylabdul]

over-reaction alert!!!

 

[sylabdul]

bvs was movie #2 of a cinematic universe. Just getting started folks. And i understand all want to compare this to marvel BUT dc is not trying to copy that formula. DC is actually trying an UNIQUE APPROACH and i applaud them for this

 

[CaptainWagner]

Whether SS, WW or JL are good or not isn't going to wash BvS taste out of most people's mouths.

Not sure how that works. If their next three films are great, there's no reason to think BvS's poor reception will matter at all.

 

[dax]

I agree with those who say Batman, WW, and Supes should have gotten their individual films first, then a Trinity film, then JLA. With those individual films you can introduce the minor JLA characters much like Marvel did.

But Batman and Superman already have enough individual films as it is. The world already knows who they are whereas Wonder Woman has just now been introduced to the cinematic universe in BvS. Next year, she'll have her individual film out in theaters and as for the minor JLA characters, Green Lantern already had his film, Flash has his TV show and his cameo in BvS, Aquaman also had his cameo and filming for his own movie is underway, Green Arrow has his TV show, and Martian Manhunter is mostly featured on the Supergirl show. The only characters that haven't been introduced yet are Cyborg, Hawkman, and Hawkgirl so they might need some individual films.

 

[NHawk19]

Whether SS, WW or JL are good or not isn't going to wash BvS taste out of most people's mouths.

I think that depends on how well received the rest of the franchise is. Look at IM2. It wasn't the greatest movie but it lead to Avengers, so now instead of calling IM2 bad we refer to it as a bridge film because it was needed to push the story and universe forward.

If, and I'm not saying they will, or that they're headed in the direction to, but if by some slim chance JL blows everyone away BvS may get similar treatment. It'll may still be considered a bad movie on it's on but within the franchise it may just be a lower tier film.

 

[Closerframe]

I think some fan pessimism is a bit premature given how we're technically only two films into the DCCU and only one (BvS) has been met with overwhelming bad feedback from fans and the general audience alike. Unlike Marvel that had success right out of the gate, WB jumped the gun by announcing everything without a formal execution plan. Now that they've seen what Snyder has done, they're trying to makeup for his shortcomings and those of Marvel--in regards to the lack of diversity on that end--but I'm hoping that SS and WW prove that they've got the right idea for how to set themselves apart but also find success.

 

[writer0327]

But Batman and Superman already have enough individual films as it is. The world already knows who they are whereas Wonder Woman has just now been introduced to the cinematic universe in BvS. Next year, she'll have her individual film out in theaters and as for the minor JLA characters, Green Lantern already had his film, Flash has his TV show and his cameo in BvS, Aquaman also had his cameo and filming for his own movie is underway, Green Arrow has his TV show, and Martian Manhunter is mostly featured on the Supergirl show. The only characters that haven't been introduced yet are Cyborg, Hawkman, and Hawkgirl so they might need some individual films.

Yes, Batman and Superman have already had individual their films, but not within this cinematic universe, so you have to start with your main stars. Establish who they are in this universe first before you try and tell a larger story, that way you have no problems when its time to add the others.

So much of a cinematic universe's appeal is the ability to cross multiple characters between several films. Marvel has done an excellent job introducing their characters within the larger character films. War Machine and Black Widow in the Iron Man films, Falcon and Black Panther in Captain America. DC could have used a similar process in their CU. But I know what everyone wants to say....it would just be copying Marvel.

At some point, these two creative companies have mimicked each other in some form or fashion. The focus shouldn't be on trying to reinvent the wheel but get the characters, stories, and movies right. Get the universe going in the right direction. Stop worrying about being super-creative and unique for a moment and get the ship steered in the right direction. That's what I care about.

 

[samsnee]

I don't know. They introduced Spider-man and Black Panther into the MCU without an origin movie and it turned out fine.

 

[Erzengel]

I think that depends on how well received the rest of the franchise is. Look at IM2. It wasn't the greatest movie but it lead to Avengers, so now instead of calling IM2 bad we refer to it as a bridge film because it was needed to push the story and universe forward.

If, and I'm not saying they will, or that they're headed in the direction to, but if by some slim chance JL blows everyone away BvS may get similar treatment. It'll may still be considered a bad movie on it's on but within the franchise it may just be a lower tier film.

So best case scenario is BvS becomes the X:Men: Wolverine Origins of the DCEU series.

 

[Victarion]

They need a central theme going forward and someone that can take Snyder's ideas, mold them a bit and put together a decent movie. Not naming names, but I'm a fan of Shane Black and George Miller.

As for theme - I like the idea of a situation where the heroes are a cure that may be just as bad, or worse, than the disease. The movies could build themselves around the question of: Are we better off without these superheroes; do they unintentionally trivialize the struggles of our everday heroes?

To fit the theme, your first Justice League movie could see Superman return, and believing he's failed Earth, attempt to free the people of Apokolips from Darkseid's tyrannical rule - and get himself into a situation where the League has to save him, thus kicking off a big, messy war on Apokolips...the other New Gods seizing on the destabilization of Darkseid's rule by sending their armies to Earth to eliminate the threat they believe Superman and the metahumans pose to their people.

So you get two big, epic, messy war movies in which the Justice League examines whether or not their heroics are a necessity - perhaps the cure (Superman and the Justice League) is just as bad as the disease (Darkseid's tyrannical rule).

Individual movies could then be "After the War" affairs where our heroes, changed by their experiences fighting on Earth and on Apokolips have to deal with rogues and stories tailored to the theme of questioning whether or not we are betraying ourselves be elevating these very human, very flawed individuals to the status of superhero.

This avoids darkness for darkness' sake and gives the DCEU an overarching theme that I could have a lot of fun with.

 

[Panthro]

I think that depends on how well received the rest of the franchise is. Look at IM2. It wasn't the greatest movie but it lead to Avengers, so now instead of calling IM2 bad we refer to it as a bridge film because it was needed to push the story and universe forward.

If, and I'm not saying they will, or that they're headed in the direction to, but if by some slim chance JL blows everyone away BvS may get similar treatment. It'll may still be considered a bad movie on it's on but within the franchise it may just be a lower tier film.

IM2 is practically Lawrence of Arabia compared to BVS, but then again I always felt IM2 took way more flak than it really deserved.

 

[batfreakforever]

IM2 is practically Lawrence of Arabia compared to BVS, but then again I always felt IM2 took way more flak than it really deserved.

You're joking right?

 

[Erzengel]

I didn't walk out of Iron Man 2 thinking, what's the least amount of money I'm going to have to spend to watch an extended edition of this movie.