Why Can't DC Get it right? - Part 2

[Erzengel]

they always need to improve the craft, that's what creative people should do.
otherwise you will end up repeating your previous work over and over again.

:cough:

 

[Docker2.0]

Wow how pretentious can you get?

SHOCK HORROR I have my own opinion

Then again expect nothing less on here now

Not just here but every website. DC can not stay the current course because it is doomed to fail or under perform if it doesn't right the ship. I am genuinely concerned about WW with the reception the first 3 movies of the DCCU have gotten.

 

[HaplessHenchman]

As someone who loves the DCEU so far I don't think they need to do anything to improve, just stay the course.

Agreed. There are more of us than people on here like to think.

 

[Erzengel]

Not just here but every website. DC can not stay the current course because it is doomed to fail or under perform if it doesn't right the ship. I am genuinely concerned about WW with the reception the first 3 movies of the DCCU have gotten.

We can almost liken the first 3 DCEU movies with the TASM series.

You can say that the TASM series made $1.4B.
With the DCEU, it's $2.19B.

If you take a look at the past efforts, and even adding Wolverine (his singular showings) to a larger respect, it almost feels like some studios just expects that making movies with the most popular characters will just make people run to the showings. When more care and thought has to be put in.

 

[Docker2.0]

We can almost liken the first 3 DCEU movies with the TASM series.

You can say that the TASM series made $1.4B.
With the DCEU, it's $2.19B.

If you take a look at the past efforts, and even adding Wolverine (his singular showings) to a larger respect, it almost feels like some studios just expects that making movies with the most popular characters will just make people run to the showings. When more care and thought has to be put in.

Agreed! BvS should have challenged CA: CW at the box office but it's not even close. It got beat by a R rated superhero named Deadpool! Anyone not seeing something wrong with that? This after extending production for a year and this is the best they got? I haven't seen the extended cut but can't lie, BvS has it's moments. But it has been cut and butchered to death, leaving out important pieces, same as Suicide Squad. I just don't get what WB is doing but who knows. With Johns in charge, hopefully WW changes all that.

 

[TeeKay]

As someone who loves the DCEU so far I don't think they need to do anything to improve, just stay the course.

Aren't they already course correcting?

 

[AnneFan]

Wow how pretentious can you get?

SHOCK HORROR I have my own opinion

Then again expect nothing less on here now

 

[Anita18]

Someone else here put it best: "Marvel had a plan and a goal, WB just had a goal."
It amazes me how shoddily put together this universe is.

I was actually surprised to learn that CA:CW was made BECAUSE of BvS's announcement at SDCC. The Russos doing the CW storyline was in reaction to BvS. Otherwise they would have done something else, that would probably have more Steve/Bucky/Sam and less Tony. But instead, it's BvS that seems more slapdash even though they had technically more time to develop it. There ARE parts of CW that seem shoehorned in (cough Spidey), but the joyous character interactions more than make up for it.

So, in the light of this revelation about CW and the ongoing development of IW-no-longer-in-two-parts, Marvel and Feige are obviously open to being somewhat flexible about their game plan. But they don't lose sight of the overall vision, or their first goal of making entertaining movies.

I think the bulk of MoS/BvS's flaws stem from trying to do too much at once, in their quest to differentiate themselves from Marvel. All the serious themes in the world won't make up for inconsistent characterization of dispassionate or fearful characters, or for boring story. You don't get points for trying to make something high art, if it ends up having poor basic technique (ie bad storytelling/characterization). You have to have good technique first, then add onto it. That's what Nolan did so well with his TDKT.

They must be doing something wrong. Deadpool out grossed Batman and Superman in the US. As well as becoming a more likeable and popular character than Superman.

At the end of the day, a film about Superman shouldn't be polarising. It's as simple as that.

The difference between Marvel and DC? Why does Marvel get favourable treatment? It's because they've EARNED it. They've earned it by making c listers a listers. They nail their characters. They show faith in their characters and bring them to the screen with respect. Audiences can overlook flaws in the plot if they are engaged by the characters.

Evidentally, DC cannot make an engaging character.

I mean look at the approaches to Captain America and Superman. It tells you everything you need to know. Marvel showed faith in their boyscout. DC hired a guy who clearly thinks Superman is pretty lame. Snyder himself said that Superman needs "growing up".

Seriously. Anyone who thinks Superman can't be true to his square-ish boyscout self need to see how Marvel handled Steve Rogers. It CAN be done.

Snyder & Co did try. They put Superman in a world that didn't trust him, complete with military engagement. I think that IS a good place to start, with the "man out of time" thing that is forever Cap's conflict. The problem, IMO, is that Superman isn't engaging. He seems dispassionate about what he's doing. It comes off as if he's choosing to do good only because he has all these powers and he might as well do SOMETHING with them, and he's not a jerk. Batman is by far the most engaging character in BvS, because he shows passion. He's not just angsting about Superman, he's doing something about it without anyone telling him to. And even then he's acting out of fear, which isn't engaging after a while.

Every single one of Marvel's character shows passion in what they do. (Steve Roger has been, "YOU'RE BEING A BULLY FIGHT ME" since the day he was born. ) They act, sometimes impulsively, but at least they're trying to get ahead instead of just catching up with what's going on. Every single one of them at least looks like they enjoy what they do.

 

[Predator jp]

I was actually surprised to learn that CA:CW was made BECAUSE of BvS's announcement at SDCC. The Russos doing the CW storyline was in reaction to BvS.

i heard Russos wanted to do CW before BvS's announcement.
and the company greenlit it because of BvS's announcement.

 

[BH/HHH]

Aren't they already course correcting?

Read Deborah Snyder's interview prior to BvS release in which she states JL was always going to go lighter.

All movie series make changes as they go along but the overall vision is the same.

In any case I'm putting you on and anyone else on ignore who really willing to have a conversation without been pretentious about it by laughing. Bye take care.

 

[Bayne]

I was thinking about the Deadpool movie the other day and it occurred to me that Ryan Reynolds has done what no other CBM actor has done. He starred as both completely unfaithful and a completely faithful versions of the same character. And as we know, the reasoning behind this in the movie is that Wolverine went back and changed the timeline in X-Men: DOFP, which gave us the big Mega Happy Ending for mutants.

It makes me wonder... should they attempt to do something similar with the DCEU? They've already introduced the concept of time travel, and we've seen Barry Allen already attempt to alter history. Maybe they should play up the angle in JL that "something isn't right with the world" and should mess with the timeline and reset everything, giving us a more hopeful world with a Superman who is more proactive, a Batman who isn't a psychopath, etc. I don't know. I doubt anything like this will happen, but it might be a good thing if it did.

That's not the reasoning behind Deadpool at all.

One of those two characters existed as 20-30 ish year old superpowered guy in the 1970 and 80ss (born at least 10 to 20 years before the timeline was even changed), the other was a 20 - 30 ish year old non-superpowered guy in the 2010s. It's a complete and total retcon, and the only 'reasoning' behind it is that the old Deadpool sucked and everyone wants to forget he ever existed.

If WB really thinks their current version of the characters are that bad (which they don't, and - despite my varying levels of disappointment with these movies - they shouldn't, because that would be idiotically hyperbolic), then throwing out this convoluted time travel reset button would be the worst choice they could possibly make, resulting in a movie that would simultaneously alienate everyone who likes the current versions (because they're being erased) and everyone who doesn't like the current versions (because the 'new' world wouldn't show up until the end).

 

[Docker2.0]

I was actually surprised to learn that CA:CW was made BECAUSE of BvS's announcement at SDCC. The Russos doing the CW storyline was in reaction to BvS. Otherwise they would have done something else, that would probably have more Steve/Bucky/Sam and less Tony. But instead, it's BvS that seems more slapdash even though they had technically more time to develop it. There ARE parts of CW that seem shoehorned in (cough Spidey), but the joyous character interactions more than make up for it.

So, in the light of this revelation about CW and the ongoing development of IW-no-longer-in-two-parts, Marvel and Feige are obviously open to being somewhat flexible about their game plan. But they don't lose sight of the overall vision, or their first goal of making entertaining movies.

I think the bulk of MoS/BvS's flaws stem from trying to do too much at once, in their quest to differentiate themselves from Marvel. All the serious themes in the world won't make up for inconsistent characterization of dispassionate or fearful characters, or for boring story. You don't get points for trying to make something high art, if it ends up having poor basic technique (ie bad storytelling/characterization). You have to have good technique first, then add onto it. That's what Nolan did so well with his TDKT.


Seriously. Anyone who thinks Superman can't be true to his square-ish boyscout self need to see how Marvel handled Steve Rogers. It CAN be done.

Snyder & Co did try. They put Superman in a world that didn't trust him, complete with military engagement. I think that IS a good place to start, with the "man out of time" thing that is forever Cap's conflict. The problem, IMO, is that Superman isn't engaging. He seems dispassionate about what he's doing. It comes off as if he's choosing to do good only because he has all these powers and he might as well do SOMETHING with them, and he's not a jerk. Batman is by far the most engaging character in BvS, because he shows passion. He's not just angsting about Superman, he's doing something about it without anyone telling him to. And even then he's acting out of fear, which isn't engaging after a while.

Every single one of Marvel's character shows passion in what they do. (Steve Roger has been, "YOU'RE BEING A BULLY FIGHT ME" since the day he was born. ) They act, sometimes impulsively, but at least they're trying to get ahead instead of just catching up with what's going on. Every single one of them at least looks like they enjoy what they do.

Preach! Anyone who thinks what DCCU has done so far is acceptable is fooling themselves. Superman is not some angry guy who saves the world because he has to, he does it because he was raised to do the right thing. When Batman made the comment about Superman saving a cat, sorry I just can't see him doing it. He looked like the grumpiest, angriest Superman I've ever seen. Marvel got Cap right and that's how Superman should have been. A boy scout in a dark world.

 

[BH/HHH]

Preach! Anyone who thinks what DCCU has done so far is acceptable is fooling themselves. Superman is not some angry guy who saves the world because he has to, he does it because he was raised to do the right thing. When Batman made the comment about Superman saving a cat, sorry I just can't see him doing it. He looked like the grumpiest, angriest Superman I've ever seen. Marvel got Cap right and that's how Superman should have been. A boy scout in a dark world.

No anyone who likes what has been done so far is entitled to think that. Your post is the epitome of what's wrongs with people when it comes to forums nowadays. You're clearly a person who thinks that their always right and how dare anyone else thing otherwise. Well good for you but I love what they've done so far and I can't wait for even more of it.

 

[Docker2.0]

No anyone who likes what has been done so far is entitled to think that. Your post is the epitome of a person who thinks that their always right and how dare anyone else thing otherwise.

Maybe. But looking at WB's reaction to the returns of MOS, BvS, and SS, they feel the exact same way and they made it. So if the studio and execs agree with what the majority of critics and the general audience then there is something to what is being said. So even though you may like what they have done, most of the world and the studio themselves are not happy with it.

 

[BH/HHH]

Maybe. But looking at WB's reaction to the returns of MOS, BvS, and SS, they feel the exact same way and they made it. So if the studio and execs agree with what the majority of critics and the general audience then there is something to what is being said. So even though you may like what they have done, most of the world and the studio themselves are not happy with it.

Good for them but it's still egotistical to say people who are happy are deluding themselves. Just learn to be abit more respectful in your posts and don't call people delusional cause they don't shar your views.

 

[Set]

Agreed! BvS should have challenged CA: CW at the box office but it's not even close.

Just based on name recognition, IMO, BvS should have blown away Civil War.

DC/WB aren't utterly failing, in that they are still making money, but, IMO, they should be doing so much better.

One minor stylistic choice that, for me, makes a difference, is choosing to set the action during the day or night. The big fight scenes / set piece battles in Avengers ('the battle of New York') and Civil War (at the airport) are in broad daylight and involve unapologetically colorful characters in bright primary colors. It's obviously cheaper and easier to hide CGI in darker sets (and there's a stylistic / tone reason in Batman operating mostly at night, so it's not all about saving money), but I don't think it's a coincidence that my favorite fight in the last five or six DC movies has been the well-lit fight on the streets of Smallville between Faora and whoever (briefly) got in her way.

To quote Diablo, "You wanna see something?!"

Yes, Diablo. That's why I'm at a movie, and not reading a novel. I want to *see* something. Not blurry shadows and grunting. That's what porn is for.

 

[Erzengel]

Read Deborah Snyder's interview prior to BvS release in which she states JL was always going to go lighter.

All movie series make changes as they go along but the overall vision is the same.

In any case I'm putting you on and anyone else on ignore who really willing to have a conversation without been pretentious about it by laughing. Bye take care.

I think the fact that Geoff Johns was brought in and that JL may be the last DCEU by Snyder shows that the course has be changed.

 

[BH/HHH]

I think the fact that Geoff Johns was brought in and that JL may be the last DCEU by Snyder shows that the course has be changed.

Snyder and Terrio both said that MOS, BvS and JL are a trilogy their overall course hasnt changed. Maybe some elements of the script but that's normal with any franchise.

Even MCU has had shakeups, it's normal and yet the course still goes through its natural progression albeit with some changes but again that is normal.

 

[Erzengel]

I'm going to disagree with you. Various articles have come out that SS was over managed due to the reaction to BvS. Throw in the inclusion of Johns, leads me to believe that this goes far from the "normal" and "natural progression".

 

[Docker2.0]

Snyder and Terrio both said that MOS, BvS and JL are a trilogy their overall course hasnt changed. Maybe some elements of the script but that's normal with any franchise.

Even MCU has had shakeups, it's normal and yet the course still goes through its natural progression albeit with some changes but again that is normal.

It's been rumored to have cost A LOT of people their jobs for the DCCU not doing as well as expected. If that isn't a shake up, I don't know what is!

 

[TeeKay]

Read Deborah Snyder's interview prior to BvS release in which she states JL was always going to go lighter.

All movie series make changes as they go along but the overall vision is the same.

In any case I'm putting you on and anyone else on ignore who really willing to have a conversation without been pretentious about it by laughing. Bye take care.

I never said other wise. Everyone likes to bring that interview up but forgets Snyder said on those set visits the reaction to BvS took him by surprise and made him want to go lighter for JL. you're only dilusional if you think that the reaction to BvS didn't make any sort of changes to JL. Heck Suicode Squad was the first victim of the course correction after BvS and we all know how that turned out. But continue living in denial and I feel honoured to be on your ignore list just because you don't agree with what I'm saying.

 

[Flint Marko]

Even MCU has had shakeups, it's normal and yet the course still goes through its natural progression albeit with some changes but again that is normal.

What we have seen with the production timeline for the DCEU thus far has been anything but normal. They've basically been course-correcting since day one, albeit in far more egregious ways recently.

 

[Docker2.0]

I never said other wise. Everyone likes to bring that interview up but forgets Snyder said on those set visits the reaction to BvS took him by surprise and made him want to go lighter for JL. you're only dilusional if you think that the reaction to BvS didn't make any sort of changes to JL. Heck Suicode Squad was the first victim of the course correction after BvS and we all know how that turned out. But continue living in denial and I feel honoured to be on your ignore list just because you don't agree with what I'm saying.

Providing facts adds nothing to your point! It's all in your head man!

 

[flickchick85]

I never said other wise. Everyone likes to bring that interview up but forgets Snyder said on those set visits the reaction to BvS took him by surprise and made him want to go lighter for JL. you're only dilusional if you think that the reaction to BvS didn't make any sort of changes to JL. Heck Suicode Squad was the first victim of the course correction after BvS and we all know how that turned out. But continue living in denial and I feel honoured to be on your ignore list just because you don't agree with what I'm saying.

Tone down the condescension. Calling people delusional or "in denial" for disagreeing over an interpretation of behind-the-scenes happenings that NONE of us are actually privy to is not the way to have a civil debate.

 

[DrCosmic]

Seriously. Anyone who thinks Superman can't be true to his square-ish boyscout self need to see how Marvel handled Steve Rogers. It CAN be done.

Snyder & Co did try. They put Superman in a world that didn't trust him, complete with military engagement. I think that IS a good place to start, with the "man out of time" thing that is forever Cap's conflict. The problem, IMO, is that Superman isn't engaging. He seems dispassionate about what he's doing. It comes off as if he's choosing to do good only because he has all these powers and he might as well do SOMETHING with them, and he's not a jerk. Batman is by far the most engaging character in BvS, because he shows passion. He's not just angsting about Superman, he's doing something about it without anyone telling him to. And even then he's acting out of fear, which isn't engaging after a while.

Every single one of Marvel's character shows passion in what they do. (Steve Roger has been, "YOU'RE BEING A BULLY FIGHT ME" since the day he was born. ) They act, sometimes impulsively, but at least they're trying to get ahead instead of just catching up with what's going on. Every single one of them at least looks like they enjoy what they do.

They *can*, but they don't want to. I think the core issue with that is that they don't like the character. My friends who dislike Superman LOVED Man of Steel. My friends who love Superman didn't. It was a film made by people who dislike Superman for the same such folks. And with a disliked protagonist, there is no passion. He doesn't get dialogue, because the person writing the dialogue doesn't care what he has to say. This is not to say it was a bad movie, but it's hard to make a great movie when you don't like the story you're adapting. For some, taking Superman 'down a peg' and making him not really very likable at all is incredibly cathartic, and makes them like him. Kinda like a Heel Turn in wrestling. Everyone loves Superman with a Heel Turn (Injustice, Red Son, DKR, you name it). But a Superman with a Heel Turn isn't really Superman anymore... and that, for good or ill, is the point.