Why Can't DC Get it right? - Part 2

[SamuraiX]

No, I know that everyone does. I'm just refuting the claim that BvS is in any way, shape, or form more coherent than any MCU film to date. It's not even in the same ballpark.

First off all, did i say that? I don't think i said BvS is more coherent than any MCU film to date.

Second, you didn't prove anything even close to that. All you did was to mention a few "inconsistencies" with BvS. It's not like you compared the number of plot holes in BvS with the number of plot holes in every other MCU movie and came to the conclusion that BvS has more than every other film.

Plus, just for your information, most of what you mentioned weren't even plot holes but a huge lack of understanding from you regarding what's going on in the movie.

For example:

Batman spends the entire movie telling us that Superman is a potential threat, and even if there's a 1% chance of him turning on us, he must be killed. But their mom's have the same name, so that doesn't matter anymore.

You see, you didn't understand the movie. There's nothing incoherent here and he didn't change his mind because their mothers have the same name. Batman knows what it is like to lose a mother and seeing Superman in a similar situation touched him on a very deep level. Not only that but he realized he has been played the whole time and decided to do the right thing. Superman screaming Martha only served the purpose of grabing Batman's attention, and nothing more. He is obviously obsessed with his parents deathes, so someone screaming "Martha" obviously brings back his demons.

 

[The Endless]

But why would that change the idea that there is a 1% chance of Superman going rogue?

This isn't rocket science. I think everyone understands Bruce is still deeply tortured by his parents deaths. People understand that moment humanises Superman in Bruce's eyes.

But still... why does that eliminate that 1% chance? And would they become best buds all of a sudden? The interactions between the Trinity were poor. They barely said a word to each other in that final action scene.

 

[Guard82]

I wish the people in charge of the DC movies at WB would take a cue from how Greg Berlanti and co. have successfully created an entertaining shared DC universe on TV. Notwithstanding Arrow's current problems, the Berlanti TV shows demonstrate how to take DC characters, stories, and comic-book elements and adapt them into a live-action universe which is both fun and compelling. Shows like The Flash, Supergirl, and Legends of Tomorrow have had successful seasons this past year and have showcased great adaptations of many elements of the DC comics mythology. And whenever there has been a crossover within this shared DC television universe, the results have been hugely fun.

I think these shows work because Berlanti and co understand that creating engaging characters is most important, along with giving them compelling stories. I feel that the people in charge of the DCEU films need to do better on this score.

 

[Flint Marko]

But why would that change the idea that there is a 1% chance of Superman going rogue?

This isn't rocket science. I think everyone understands Bruce is still deeply tortured by his parents deaths. People understand that moment humanises Superman in Bruce's eyes.

But still... why does that eliminate that 1% chance? And would they become best buds all of a sudden? The interactions between the Trinity were poor. They barely said a word to each other in that final action scene.

Yup! Bruce learning that Superman's mother is also in danger does nothing to change the ridiculous motivations he held onto for 18 months. There's still a 1% chance Superman could turn evil; hell, he had visions of the future and a time traveller come visit him to tell him he's right. And yet, the fact that he so quickly throws it all out the window shows how dumb and contrived the entire conflict was.

 

[SamuraiX]

But why would that change the idea that there is a 1% chance of Superman going rogue?

This isn't rocket science. I think everyone understands Bruce is still deeply tortured by his parents deaths. People understand that moment humanises Superman in Bruce's eyes.

But still... why does that eliminate that 1% chance? And would they become best buds all of a sudden? The interactions between the Trinity were poor. They barely said a word to each other in that final action scene.

It's pretty clear that Batman's point of view changes quite a bit after:

- Seeing Superman in a more vulnerable light and empathizing with him because of the mother situation. At this point there was a bond established. He changed his perspective on Superman.

- He realized there were way bigger threats to the world and that Superman was very important in the battle against it.


The whole 1% thing was the mindset of a frustrated man that was in a very tough spot in his life. Feeling powerless and determined to not allow more people to die, he decides he has to destroy him. Batman is a control freak.He wants to protect people. He trained for that. He has the tools for that. All of the sudden he feels he can't do nothing to achieve that goal. That messed with him on a very deep level.

Some of the stuff that pushed Bruce over the edge was engineered by Lex. After understanding that his mindset obviously changed quite a bit.

To me it all seems very sensible and easy to understand. Yeah, it forces you to think a little more about things. It's not 100% of the answers in your face so you don't have any chance to question anything.

But i guess you can find a problem with anything if you're determined enough. You can say "it doesn't make sense", but well, people do change their mind. But you can still insist that to you it doesn't make sense. Well, that's your opinion.

On a similar note, Tony Stark forcing a kid to put his life in danger in name of his personal motivations, especially in an "unregulated" way, which goes against what he was preeching in the movie, is a lot less understandable(to me) than Bruce Wayne changing his views on Superman after realizing who the real enemy is and establishing a bond with him. I honestly don't feel what Tony did was logical or in tune with the character's motivation in the movie.

This perfectly illustrates the current double standard that exists in CB movies. It seems like movies featuring Batman and Superman are held to a much higher standard than anything else. What's seen as a huge flaw in a Batman/Superman movie is completely ignored in a Marvel movie.

 

[NotNickFury]

I wish the people in charge of the DC movies at WB would take a cue from how Greg Berlanti and co. have successfully created an entertaining shared DC universe on TV. Notwithstanding Arrow's current problems, the Berlanti TV shows demonstrate how to take DC characters, stories, and comic-book elements and adapt them into a live-action universe which is both fun and compelling. Shows like The Flash, Supergirl, and Legends of Tomorrow have had successful seasons this past year and have showcased great adaptations of many elements of the DC comics mythology. And whenever there has been a crossover within this shared DC television universe, the results have been hugely fun.

I think these shows work because Berlanti and co understand that creating engaging characters is most important, along with giving them compelling stories. I feel that the people in charge of the DCEU films need to do better on this score.

It also helps that the DC CW Universe isn't in any sort of competition or deadline to catch up with Marvel since the only network show they have right now is Agents of SHIELD which, in my opinion, isn't that good.

But yeah, you'd wish the greater DCEU would just have its own film division separate from corporate interference. Sure, the Mouse owns Marvel, but he's not standing over Feige's shoulder and watching every decision...as far as I know.

 

[Erzengel]

On a similar note, Tony Stark forcing a kid to put his life in danger in name of his personal motivations, especially in an "unregulated" way, which goes against what he was preeching in the movie, is a lot less understandable(to me) than Bruce Wayne changing his views on Superman after realizing who the real enemy is and establishing a bond with him. I honestly don't feel what Tony did was logical or in tune with the character's motivation in the movie.

They pretty much reinforced that it was gloried sparring match that just got out of hand. It was stated that Spider-Man by Spider-Man himself was suppose to remain on the outskirts to use his webbing. Let's also remember Tony did his research, he knew Peter could stop a 2 ton car going 40 mph. Based on Steve's team, outside of possibly Wanda, she was the most "dangerous". Even at the end of the fight, Tony orders Peter to stand down.

The difference between BvS and CW or most other CBM even ones outside MCU, that sometimes their's hand holding with plots, otherwise it's subtlely stated but it's not huge leaps of faith and jarring.

This perfectly illustrates the current double standard that exists in CB movies. It seems like movies featuring Batman and Superman are held to a much higher standard than anything else. What's seen as a huge flaw in a Batman/Superman movie is completely ignored in a Marvel movie.

I think the release of X-2, DOFP, Spider-Man 2, CW, TDK, TWS, Avengers has raised the bar for everyone else. There's a higher standard because we have had top tier CBM.

 

[Creo]

First off all, did i say that? I don't think i said BvS is more coherent than any MCU film to date.

Second, you didn't prove anything even close to that. All you did was to mention a few "inconsistencies" with BvS. It's not like you compared the number of plot holes in BvS with the number of plot holes in every other MCU movie and came to the conclusion that BvS has more than every other film.

Plus, just for your information, most of what you mentioned weren't even plot holes but a huge lack of understanding from you regarding what's going on in the movie.

For example:



You see, you didn't understand the movie. There's nothing incoherent here and he didn't change his mind because their mothers have the same name. Batman knows what it is like to lose a mother and seeing Superman in a similar situation touched him on a very deep level. Not only that but he realized he has been played the whole time and decided to do the right thing. Superman screaming Martha only served the purpose of grabing Batman's attention, and nothing more. He is obviously obsessed with his parents deathes, so someone screaming "Martha" obviously brings back his demons.

No, you didn't explicitly state it, but you've gone out of your way to show that you find BvS more coherent than CW. You also stated that both universes are more incoherent than not, which is simply not true of the MCU. Yes there are some instances where it is, but they're fairly uncommon.

I did prove that. Please feel free to make a list of the inconsistencies in any one MCU movie that is on the same level as BVS.

I didn't mention plot holes, I mentioned inconsistencies.

I also firmly understand what they were trying to accomplish with the scene. It just doesn't make sense with the rest of the movie and the motivations Batman had prior to that scene. He wasn't being manipulated by Lex when he came to the conclusion that Superman is a potential significant threat to Earth, he came to that conclusion after the Battle of Metropolis from MOS. Just because Supes has a mother doesn't remove that potential.

 

[Creo]

It's pretty clear that Batman's point of view changes quite a bit after:

- Seeing Superman in a more vulnerable light and empathizing with him because of the mother situation. At this point there was a bond established. He changed his perspective on Superman.

- He realized there were way bigger threats to the world and that Superman was very important in the battle against it.


The whole 1% thing was the mindset of a frustrated man that was in a very tough spot in his life. Feeling powerless and determined to not allow more people to die, he decides he has to destroy him. Batman is a control freak.He wants to protect people. He trained for that. He has the tools for that. All of the sudden he feels he can't do nothing to achieve that goal. That messed with him on a very deep level.

Some of the stuff that pushed Bruce over the edge was engineered by Lex. After understanding that his mindset obviously changed quite a bit.

To me it all seems very sensible and easy to understand. Yeah, it forces you to think a little more about things. It's not 100% of the answers in your face so you don't have any chance to question anything.

But i guess you can find a problem with anything if you're determined enough. You can say "it doesn't make sense", but well, people do change their mind. But you can still insist that to you it doesn't make sense. Well, that's your opinion.

On a similar note, Tony Stark forcing a kid to put his life in danger in name of his personal motivations, especially in an "unregulated" way, which goes against what he was preeching in the movie, is a lot less understandable(to me) than Bruce Wayne changing his views on Superman after realizing who the real enemy is and establishing a bond with him. I honestly don't feel what Tony did was logical or in tune with the character's motivation in the movie.

This perfectly illustrates the current double standard that exists in CB movies. It seems like movies featuring Batman and Superman are held to a much higher standard than anything else. What's seen as a huge flaw in a Batman/Superman movie is completely ignored in a Marvel movie.

At the time of this scene, their were no bigger threats to the Earth than a man who can level an entire city with no opposition.

Lex had pretty much nothing to do with Bats coming to the conclusion that Supes was a large, potential threat. Again, the Battle of Metropolis was the catalyst for this opinion. The only part that Lex had anything to do with was the Senate bombing, and anyone who believed Superman was responsible is a dolt.

It's not just us that has problems with it. It was critics. It was the audience (based on cinemascore and box office). It was most people who watched the movie.

Tony didn't force Peter to fight. As stated several times before, Spidey has a more powerful skill set than everyone on Team Cap outside of Scarlet Witch. Also stated is the fact that he was there to help lock down the fight, not to necessarily engage. I still fail to see how it was unregulated, as he was with the team who was working for the government to detain rogue agents fighting against it. And again, his life was in no more danger (I'd say less danger) than the heroism he was already engaging in by himself in NYC. The entirety of Team Cap, outside of Winter Soldier, were heroes who don't kill unless necessary (like fighting Nazis or Chitauri) and wouldn't be killing the heroes/friends they'd been fighting alongside for years. Had Hulk or Thor been involved I'd agree with you more, but the only real damage came from someone on Team Ironman who was reckless at the end of the engagement.

Was Spider-Man shoehorned in? Yea. Was it inconsistent? Hardly.

 

[Erzengel]

Pssst. You're arguing with a banned user.

 

[Creo]

Pssst. You're arguing with a banned user.

Really? That's no fun! I wonder what he did. While I found his views incredibly wrong, his behavior seemed fine.

Oh well!

 

[hopeless]

Wasn't the point that unless you watch the ultimate edition it really doesn't make sense?

So the point is that Batman is usually prepared for anything, what the movie was trying to explain was that Luthor had planned everything thinking Batman was the thug he believed him to be.

What Luthor hadn't planned on is that Batman is so much more than that, so when confronted with the evidence that Superman wasn't the threat he appeared and because he does adapt to situations he realised he had made a mistake and listened!

You forgive me that I haven't bothered to read all of the messages being a mite close minded but I do understand what you're saying.

 

[dax]

I didn't mention plot holes, I mentioned inconsistencies.

I also firmly understand what they were trying to accomplish with the scene. It just doesn't make sense with the rest of the movie and the motivations Batman had prior to that scene. He wasn't being manipulated by Lex when he came to the conclusion that Superman is a potential significant threat to Earth, he came to that conclusion after the Battle of Metropolis from MOS. Just because Supes has a mother doesn't remove that potential.

But Batman doesn't have any proof that Superman is a potential threat to Earth. He doesn't even know that it was General Zod who fired his heat vision inside the Wayne building and Superman showed no signs of turning evil. Batman let his rage and paranoia cloud his judgement until Superman called out Martha's name.

 

[batman1]

My opinion on why DC can't get it right

1. They are trying to hard to make their movie serious. I think they all fell in love with V for Vendetta and are trying to copy it but it doesn't work to well. It's a superhero movie. Have some fun with it. I am not saying go full Deadpool(although I love would love a Lobo movie)

2. Way way way too huge of a reliance on Batman and Superman. Just too much. And this wouldn't be so bad if they didn't treat them like some untouchable religious icons. Seriously Thor is a goddamn god and he is not treated even half as pretentiously as they are treating Superman. If you are going to endlessly give us the same characters at least let's shake things up a bit.. And no having them murder people doesn't really count. That was just lame

3. Making their movies goddamn dark. As in visually. I am still so pissed at the Doomsday fight. It was a mess. I could barely see anything. Like what the **** were they thinking?

4. Not enough movie with not enough characters. The DC universe is full of characters and many of them don't require a big budget. We can have a whole flood of them. Yes of course I want a Wonder Woman movie(although I would prefer if she got recast) and I would love a Supergirl movie . Especially one set outside Earth but there are also so many other characters we can have.

The Green Arrow already gained fame with the TV series. We can have a movie based on him without a problem. We can have a fascinating movie based around the Question which would also be a great way to dig into how society reacts to Superheroes and so on and so on. So much potential so little will.

I agree but I would also add

1. Making Zach Snyder in charge of the DC universe. Everything has to follow his tone already set. Even if he is fired after JL the visual and emotional tones are already set. We are heading into movies 4, and 5 next year. The DNA is set.

 

[Serpico Jones]

A lot of it comes down to greed and bad decision-making from creative executives. While I liked Man of Steel it was a movie that got a very mixed reaction and it was a strange decision to hang your entire universe on that movie. It was also a curious decision to move forward with a filmmaker in Zack Snyder who hadn't had a hit in years. A lot of it comes down to greedy studio executives chasing down Marvel with zero plan.

 

[Victarion]

It sounds like a case of too many cooks in the kitchen. WW and JL will tell us if Geoff can fix the issues raised. He's written a couple of well-reviewed Green Lantern comics, but I found JL: Origins to be pretty meh.

SS was a step in the right direction as far as comics fidelity goes. The Deadshot, Boomerang, Waller, and Flag I saw on screen came right from John Ostrander's pen. El Diablo is a walking duplicate of his New 52 incarnation, substitute the religious bent for his longing for the family he accidentally killed. And, I found this whole bunch to be more likable than Batman or Superman. So the likeability factor's there with the fidelity to source material that made this a better outing than DoJ.

Hopefully WW and JL will continue the trend for ya'll and manage to hook me in as readily as SS did.

edit:

Guy above me is right about more solos. Doing research for SS, I came across characters like Nightshade, Bronze Tiger, Deathstroke, Deadshot (specifically - his Beginnings storyline from Ostrander) whom I'd love to see in their own solo movies. They need not be franchises, even - just focus on giving me a solid balls-to-the-wall action movie, or a more character study type movie where the Deadshot Beginnings storyline is concerned.

 

[TheVileOne]

Wonder Woman is going to be a cultural minefield, and I might just want to stay off the internet discussions all together when it comes out.

 

[Victarion]

I think Deadshot's drawn-out execution of the MR pedophile that killed his kid would make his movie more a minefield than Wonder Woman.

 

[Flint Marko]

Wonder Woman is going to be a cultural minefield, and I might just want to stay off the internet discussions all together when it comes out.

I think this could be the case if it turns out as poor as the previous DCEU movies. If it's generally viewed as a good film overall, it won't be as bad.

 

[TheVileOne]

I mean I hope it does. If there's another major DCEU movie with a Rotten score on RT, this board might very well just implode.

 

[Bats123]

I mean I hope it does. If there's another major DCEU movie with a Rotten score on RT, this board might very well just implode.

One part of me hopes WW does great because i wanna see this universe go the right direction, but another part i kinda wanna see what happens if it does as bad as (or maybe worse) than the last 3 DCEU movies.

 

[Serpico Jones]

I mean I hope it does. If there's another major DCEU movie with a Rotten score on RT, this board might very well just implode.

If that's the case then I think WB will have no choice but to re-start the DCEU.

 

[TheVileOne]

I feel that's very unlikely. They'd still release Justice League for sure at least. Plus box office matters than the RT score. A bad RT score won't prompt a reboot.

Bad office would.

 

[BlZARRO]

If that's the case then I think WB will have no choice but to re-start the DCEU.

WB won't re-start the DCEU because of RT scores. LOL!

 

[Timebomb]

A lot of it comes down to greed and bad decision-making from creative executives. While I liked Man of Steel it was a movie that got a very mixed reaction and it was a strange decision to hang your entire universe on that movie. It was also a curious decision to move forward with a filmmaker in Zack Snyder who hadn't had a hit in years. A lot of it comes down to greedy studio executives chasing down Marvel with zero plan.

Very accurate statement