Why make the ending so weird

Joker said:
I didn't see him shocked about what he did. I didn't see him shocked at all. It looked like he stood down because he saw the nephew of the man he accidently killed.

You see he had a big sandy clobberin' fist ready to go again, which implies he was about to have another go at Spidey until he saw who he was.

The way I saw it is he'd just reformed after being blown up but when he went to rejoin the battle he saw both Harry and Eddie dead and realized how far things had gone. That's why he says he didn't want this. We even see his sand-fist dissolving immediately after Eddie is blown away and while Peter's back is turned to him.

Well, he'd have to pretty dumb to only realize that then. What did he think he was going to do when he and Venom went after Spidey, sit him down and give him a good talking to?

They both went there with the intention of killing him, and Sandman obviously wasn't above putting an innocent girl in danger to do it, either.

He went there to kill Spidey for sure. Another stupid decision of his. The man had already stopped him twice from getting the money he needed, plus he tried to kill him. That's why I said before he did what he did out of stupidity (or weakness). His choices certainly aren't the best, but for him they're justified because he's trying to save his daughter. That's what changes at the end.

As for MJ and the police, I don't think Sandman ever intended to hurt them. He had even said to Spider-man he didn't want to hurt him before. He just hadn't realize how much of a maniac Venom was.
 
Well, he'd have to pretty dumb to only realize that then.

I think the point is that, at that point, it suddenly dawned on him that killing Spider-Man would be (as FNSpidey put it) making the same mistake he still feels guilty over. He wanted to kill Spidey because he needed to be able to get the money for his daughter unimpeded (i.e. the end justifies the means), but didn't really realize what killing Spider-Man actually meant until he saw Eddie get blown to bits and saw Peter's face.
 
Joker said:
I didn't see him shocked about what he did. I didn't see him shocked at all. It looked like he stood down because he saw the nephew of the man he accidently killed.

You see he had a big sandy clobberin' fist ready to go again, which implies he was about to have another go at Spidey until he saw who he was.

The way I saw it is he'd just reformed after being blown up but when he went to rejoin the battle he saw both Harry and Eddie dead and realized how far things had gone. That's why he says he didn't want this. We even see his sand-fist dissolving immediately after Eddie is blown away and while Peter's back is turned to him.

Well, he'd have to pretty dumb to only realize that then. What did he think he was going to do when he and Venom went after Spidey, sit him down and give him a good talking to?

They both went there with the intention of killing him, and Sandman obviously wasn't above putting an innocent girl in danger to do it, either.

He went there to kill Spidey for sure. Another stupid decision of his. The man had already stopped him twice from getting the money he needed, plus he tried to kill him. That's why I said before he did what he did out of stupidity (or weakness). His choices certainly aren't the best, but for him they're justified because he's trying to save his daughter. That's what changes in the end.

Remember Peter's closing words? "Whatever comes our way, whatever battle we have raging inside us, we always have a choice. (... ) It's the choices that make us who we are and we can always choose to do what's right". This applies to every single character in the film, including Marko.

As for MJ and the police, I don't think Sandman ever intended to hurt them. He had even said to Spider-man he didn't want to hurt him before. He just hadn't realized how much of a maniac Venom was.
 
The way I saw it is he'd just reformed after being blown up but when he went to rejoin the battle he saw both Harry and Eddie dead and realized how far things had gone.

I cannot possibly imagine what you're basing that on. Why should he care if Harry died? He'd been trying to kill him 5 minutes ago.

That's why he says he didn't want this.

No, he said that because he didn't want to kill anyone. But, he wasn't above doing it for his own selfish reasons. Like in the armoured car: "I don't want to hurt you. Leave now".

We even see his mace dissolving immediately after Eddie is blown away and while Peter's back is turned to him.

Are you trying to say that he gave up trying to kill Spidey because Eddie died?

He went there to kill Spidey for sure. Another stupid decision of his. The man had already stopped him twice from getting the money he needed, plus he tried to kill him.

And, Sandman didn't try and kill, either? He assaulted Police officers, swept Cop cars away in a gust of sand, injured or killed god knows who when that armoured truck was going amok in the streets etc

And, the only defence to this is he made stupid decisions?

That's why I said before he did what he did out of stupidity (or weakness). His choices certainly aren't the best, but for him they're justified because he's trying to save his daughter. That's what changes at the end.

That doesn't excuse what he did.

As for MJ and the police, I don't think Sandman ever intended to hurt them.

What did he think was going to happen to that Cop he sent flying into the windshield of that car? Or when he swept the whole street in a gust of sand, flipping cars everywhere?

As for MJ, he left her dangling on that web, everyone could see she was falling, and he kept trying to prevent Spidey from saving her. He had a total disregard for MJ's life.

He had even said to Spider-man he didn't want to hurt him before.

Already addressed that above...

He just hadn't realize how much of a maniac Venom was.

Again, I cannot imagine what you're basing that on. He agreed to Venom's plan and tactics. He could have stopped Brock any time if he wanted to.
 
Well, choice is one of the underlying themes of the entire trilogy.

Exactly! And, Sandman made extremely bad decisions without the influence of performance enhancers, or A.I. tentacles, or an alien symbiote.

He of all the villains deserved punishment. Not to fly off into the wind.
 
Sorry for the double post. I tried to edit my previous post, but somehow it was re-posted.

Joker said:
I cannot possibly imagine what you're basing that on. Why should he care if Harry died? He'd been trying to kill him 5 minutes ago.

No, he said that because he didn't want to kill anyone. But, he wasn't above doing it for his own selfish reasons. Like in the armoured car: "I don't want to hurt you. Leave now".

Are you trying to say that he gave up trying to kill Spidey because Eddie died?

And, Sandman didn't try and kill, either? He assaulted Police officers, swept Cop cars away in a gust of sand, injured or killed god knows who when that armoured truck was going amok in the streets etc

And, the only defence to this is he made stupid decisions?

He was trying to stop Harry, not kill him. And I'm saying he gave up trying to kill Spidey because two more people died in this mess he helped create and neither was Spider-man. Not to mention he understood how crazy his partner was when he saw him jump inside the cage.

I believe Sandman didn't want to kill anyone (except Spidey, of course). He didn't want to kill Ben, why would he change now? He even said he didn't want to hurt Spider-man. And even if he injured people, we never saw him kill anyone, unlike Norman, Ock or Eddie.

And yes, stupid decisions are kind of the point here. As I said above, that's why there's all this talk about choices. He kept making the wrong ones, until his talk with Peter.

That doesn't excuse what he did.

What did he think was going to happen to that Cop he sent flying into the windshield of that car? Or when he swept the whole street in a gust of sand, flipping cars everywhere?

As for MJ, he left her dangling on that web, everyone could see she was falling, and he kept trying to prevent Spidey from saving her. He had a total disregard for MJ's life.

Already addressed that above...

Again, I cannot imagine what you're basing that on. He agreed to Venom's plan and tactics. He could have stopped Brock any time if he wanted to.

He didn't just leave MJ hanging, he was fighting at the time, I don't think he was keeping an eye on her. Same thing when she fell, he was constantly trying to hit Peter and Harry, I don't think he even noticed her. I'll give you that though, they could have handled this scene better.

As I said, yes, he agreed to team up with Brock to kill Spider-man. Wrong choice. But he didn't expect him to kill Harry or kill himself. And he couldn't prevent him from doing either. Noone said Sandman is a saint, he's misguided. He tagged with Eddie, but things got out of hand.

P.S.: Great new avatar, Joker. ;)
 
Exactly, He's not gonna stop till he gets enough money to save his daughter. So it makes it seem as if Spiderman hears about him robbing more places he wont do anything cause he forgave him???
Great point.
No, Spider-Man will act as the usual hero. I would do the same.
But till then, Sandman was forgiven and he was given his well deserved second chance.
 
Sorry for the double post. I tried to edit my previous post, but somehow it was re-posted.



He was trying to stop Harry, not kill him. And I'm saying he gave up trying to kill Spidey because two more people died in this mess he helped create and neither was Spider-man. Not to mention he understood how crazy his partner was when he saw him jump inside the cage.

I believe Sandman didn't want to kill anyone (except Spidey, of course). He didn't want to kill Ben, why would he change now? He even said he didn't want to hurt Spider-man. And even if he injured people, we never saw him kill anyone, unlike Norman, Ock or Eddie.

And yes, stupid decisions are kind of the point here. As I said above, that's why there's all this talk about choices. He kept making the wrong ones, until his talk with Peter.



He didn't just leave MJ hanging, he was fighting at the time, I don't think he was keeping an eye on her. Same thing when she fell, he was constantly trying to hit Peter and Harry, I don't think he even noticed her. I'll give you that though, they could have handled this scene better.

As I said, yes, he agreed to team up with Brock to kill Spider-man. Wrong choice. But he didn't expect him to kill Harry or kill himself. And he couldn't prevent him from doing either. Noone said Sandman is a saint, he's misguided. He tagged with Eddie, but things got out of hand.

P.S.: Great new avatar, Joker. ;)
don't forget FNSpidey, Flint new the plan, and he new MJ was just bait
 
omid17 said:
don't forget FNSpidey, Flint new the plan, and he new MJ was just bait

Exactly. As far as he was concerned, she was just there to lure Spider-man in, nothing more.
 
He was trying to stop Harry, not kill him.

How do you know that? He wasn't attacking Harry any differently to the way he was attacking Spidey.

And I'm saying he gave up trying to kill Spidey because two more people died in this mess he helped create and neither was Spider-man. Not to mention he understood how crazy his partner was when he saw him jump inside the cage.

Again, that's pure speculation on your part. You're just assuming that was his train of thought based on what? Nothing really. His first words to Peter after he "gave up" was "I didn't want this. But, I had no choice". He never said or even hinted that he stopped because Brock died.

And, as Peter told him, you always have a choice. He chose to do what he did. And, he deserved to be punished for those crimes. Not forgiven and sent off into the sunset.

I believe Sandman didn't want to kill anyone (except Spidey, of course). He didn't want to kill Ben, why would he change now? He even said he didn't want to hurt Spider-man.

I believe that, too. But, he still went and committed terrible crimes, anyway. And, as I mentioned above, he was of complete sound mind. He had no external influences on his decisions like the other villains did.

And yes, stupid decisions are kind of the point here. As I said above, that's why there's all this talk about choices. He kept making the wrong ones, until his talk with Peter.

Which is like shutting the stable door after the horse has fled. The damage was done.

He didn't just leave MJ hanging, he was fighting at the time, I don't think he was keeping an eye on her. Same thing when she fell, he was constantly trying to hit Peter and Harry, I don't think he even noticed her.

Of course he noticed her. He'd have to have been blind not to have seen Spidey make several attempts to get to her.

As I said, yes, he agreed to team up with Brock to kill Spider-man. Wrong choice. But he didn't expect him to kill Harry or kill himself.

He tried to kill Harry himself. So, I'm not buying that for a second. As for Brock killing himself, that was Brock's own fault. Sandman had nothing to feel guilty about there. Brock made his own choices.

And he couldn't prevent him from doing either.

Of course he could have. If he really thought Venom was the maniac you say, he would have stopped him in a heartbeat. He even aided Brock in assaulting the SWAT team trying to rescue MJ.

Noone said Sandman is a saint, he's misguided. He tagged with Eddie, but things got out of hand.

And, Sandman was a huge contributor to that, growing to a monstrous size, and putting Peter, Harry, and MJ in danger.

He was the only villain who was not misguided in some way. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He just felt he had to do these bad things for the sake of his daughter.

That's selfish and wrong.

P.S.: Great new avatar, Joker. ;)

Thank you! I'm eagerly awaiting the new Batman movie.
 
He was the only villain who was not misguided in some way. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He just felt he had to do these bad things for the sake of his daughter.

That's selfish and wrong.
That's exactly right.
Which makes it the more harder leap of heart to forgive him.
That's the basic moral of SM3.
 
I believe that, too. But, he still went and committed terrible crimes, anyway. And, as I mentioned above, he was of complete sound mind. He had no external influences on his decisions like the other villains did.

His desperation and commitment to his daughter was an external influence on his decision.

Joker said:
He was the only villain who was not misguided in some way. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He just felt he had to do these bad things for the sake of his daughter.

That's selfish and wrong.

You're awfully harsh on a father who didn't want to fail his dying daughter. He was misguided, not by any alien or neurological force, but by his own desperation.
 
His desperation and commitment to his daughter was an external influence on his decision.

That was his motive. Not an external influence. For example, Norman trying to save his company was his motive, the external influence on him to choose the wrong actions in doing so was the performance enhancers which turned him insane.

Sandman had no such afflictions on him.

You're awfully harsh on a father who didn't want to fail his dying daughter. He was misguided, not by any alien or neurological force, but by his own desperation.

Again, I'm not disputing why he did it. I'm saying that his ends do not justify his means. Frankly, I think his total disregard for innocent people's lives is appalling.

Saying he didn't mean it, and he's regretful just doesn't cut it. Yes, I'm harsh on him, as I would be of any person who hurts so many people like Sandman did.
 
That was his motive. Not an external influence. For example, Norman trying to save his company was his motive, the external influence on him to choose the wrong actions in doing so was the performance enhancers which turned him insane.

Sandman had no such afflictions on him.

I see.


Joker said:
Again, I'm not disputing why he did it. I'm saying that his ends do not justify his means. Frankly, I think his total disregard for innocent people's lives is appalling.

I think that's a bit harsh for a fictional character. :oldrazz:

Joker said:
Saying he didn't mean it, and he's regretful just doesn't cut it. Yes, I'm harsh on him, as I would be of any person who hurts so many people like Sandman did.

The loss of his humanity, coupled with the fact that he couldn't save his daughter, is punishment enough, I think. I don't see how he could go to jail or "pay for his crimes" as he really isn't containable. So how would you end it?
 
It would of made a lot more sense with Sandman's daughter telling him to stop then Sandman just stopping on his own. Its just too damn bad they cut that scene.
 
I think that's a bit harsh for a fictional character. :oldrazz:

Just stressing the point that Sandman should not have gotten away with his crimes.

The loss of his humanity, coupled with the fact that he couldn't save his daughter, is punishment enough, I think.

I disagree. He became a being made of sand, but can still look like a normal human being. And, he can still shed tears, apparently. Wonder what else he can do....

As for not saving his daughter, he claims she was dying when he accidently killed Uncle Ben. That was 2 years ago. His daughter is still alive. So, whatever illness she has, she obviously has had it stabilized in some way.

He told her he'd get the money to make her healthy again. Not save her life. She's obviously not at death's door.

I don't see how he could go to jail or "pay for his crimes" as he really isn't containable. So how would you end it?

Have him surrender or be captured, and contained in a specialized air tight cell. If he's made of sand, then he certainly doesn't need to breathe.
 
Joker said:
How do you know that? He wasn't attacking Harry any differently to the way he was attacking Spidey.

Yes, I understand that. I'm just saying that's what I got from the character. There wasn't any explicit image showing that Harry got a different treatment.

Again, that's pure speculation on your part. You're just assuming that was his train of thought based on what? Nothing really. His first words to Peter after he "gave up" was "I didn't want this. But, I had no choice". He never said or even hinted that he stopped because Brock died.

And, as Peter told him, you always have a choice. He chose to do what he did. And, he deserved to be punished for those crimes. Not forgiven and sent off into the sunset.

But we do see him stop the minute Brock dies. And stating right away that he didn't want this. If "this" is not the mess all around them and the two dead bodies, what could it be?

But, as Trevor said, the point here is not punishment, it's Peter's strength of character and his ability to forgive the man that killed his uncle, recognizing that like himself, he may not be truly evil, but a victim of circumstances.

I believe that, too. But, he still went and committed terrible crimes, anyway. And, as I mentioned above, he was of complete sound mind. He had no external influences on his decisions like the other villains did.

He was of sound mind, no denying that. That doesn't mean his choices are the right ones, that's what I meant by misguided. He makes the wrong choices, but maybe for the right reasons.

Which is like shutting the stable door after the horse has fled. The damage was done.

If you view the whole thing from society's standpoint, maybe. The point is that even Sandman, in the end, has a second chance and can start making the right choices. Where this goes, we cannot know.

Of course he noticed her. He'd have to have been blind not to have seen Spidey make several attempts to get to her.

Or preoccupied. But, like I said, this could indeed have been handled better.

He tried to kill Harry himself. So, I'm not buying that for a second. As for Brock killing himself, that was Brock's own fault. Sandman had nothing to feel guilty about there. Brock made his own choices.

We cannot know for sure he tried to kill Harry. And it's not exactly guilt that stopped him. It's a kind of "look where all this is going, this can't be the right way" situation. He's not responsible for Brock's choices, but he is responsible for blindly accepting to team-up with him.

Of course he could have. If he really thought Venom was the maniac you say, he would have stopped him in a heartbeat. He even aided Brock in assaulting the SWAT team trying to rescue MJ.

I said he couldn't have stopped him because he was down for the moment. And I'm saying he understood that Brock was a maniac in the end, after he saw him kill Harry and then, illogically, himself.

And, Sandman was a huge contributor to that, growing to a monstrous size, and putting Peter, Harry, and MJ in danger.

He was the only villain who was not misguided in some way. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He just felt he had to do these bad things for the sake of his daughter.

That's selfish and wrong.

Or, as Blader said, there is something redeemable about him, since he was desperate to help his daughter. This gray moral area is what Spider-man 3 is about.

Thank you! I'm eagerly awaiting the new Batman movie.

Aren't we all? :cwink:
 
This is going nowhere. We're just repeating ourselves now. You've stated your opinions, I've stated mine. You think Sandman deserved to get away with his crimes. I don't.

Regret for what he did doesn't excuse the hurt he inflicted on his victims just because he made stupid decisions. He made his choices, with sound mind, and ultimately got away with his crimes unpunished.

Not much consolation for the likes of the Cop picking chunks of windshield glass out of his face. Assuming he survived that assault, of course.

Nice debating with you, FNSpidey :up:
 
Have him surrender or be captured, and contained in a specialized air tight cell.

I don't know why people continue to think he would have surrendered himself. Going from "the only thing left of me now is my daughter" to "lock me up so I never see my daughter again" doesn't make much sense.
 
So would you agree, Joker, that Sandman would work better as a ruthless thug working for Harry, and just ditch the Venom stuff?
 
I don't know why people continue to think he would have surrendered himself. Going from "the only thing left of me now is my daughter" to "lock me up so I never see my daughter again" doesn't make much sense.

Visitations.
 
I don't know why people continue to think he would have surrendered himself. Going from "the only thing left of me now is my daughter" to "lock me up so I never see my daughter again" doesn't make much sense.

Like he's ever going to see his daughter properly when he's a fugitive? His wife threw him out the second she saw him.

At least his daughter could visit him when he's in prison.
 
Like he's ever going to see his daughter properly when he's a fugitive? His wife threw him out the second she saw him.

At least his daughter could visit him when he's in prison.

She didn't before, how could she now? Especially with tubes up her nose, which clearly isn't the sign of a healthy future.

At least when he was out he found some way to see her, like climbing through her window or (in a deleted scene) watching her at the playground as a sand castle. And at least he could make some effort to get the money for her health care, which he obviously can't do from behind bars.
 
At least his daughter could visit him when he's in prison.
With that kind of mobility impairing illness, I doubt she can even go outside for a walk.
At least he can sneak in, being of sand, to tuck her in every night.
People wouldn’t be that revenge driven to stall a criminal in a little girl’s bed room…right?

But in any case that’s not the subject at hand. I don’t care how Sandman does it. What matters is that he has the choice to do it. As I said time and time again, his incarceration serves no purpose. He would be just eating away more tax payer money and it’s not like he can cure any injuries he inflicted to others.
There are times when people have to let go and move on, like Spider-Man did in that very scene.
 

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