Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix News and Speculation Thread - - - - Part 13

[X-Maniac]

No you went on a grounded vs fantastical elements rant.

That was a secondary point. Although related to my characterisation point in as much as the MCU manages to give completely CGI characters such personality.

 

[Drexelhand]

The MCU is just better at spreading the characterisation and giving people moments, motivations and emotions.

Because stock characters in one film are round in the next so you never really feel like you don't know them.

Even in a huge ensemble like Infinity War, this was achieved far better than in most of the X-Men films. Not to mention Thanos and his four henchmen were exactly what Apocalypse and his henchmen should have been.

The only thing we learn about them is that they're his kids.

Fox's persistence in grounding these films means the more fantastical stuff stands out like a sore thumb and is often not achieved convincingly. Beast never looks right, Apocalypse didn't look right, Mystique rarely looks right...

I disagree, but I can see how you'd think this.

Meanwhile, the MCU embraces the material and makes Thanos, Rocket Raccoon and Groot seem as real and believable as ever

(Let's not get into the DCU, which is not getting it right either)

If the MCU embraced the material for Infinity War, we'd be seeing Adam Warlock instead of Captain Marvel in it. Don't **** yourself about that. Embracing the material aesthetically is what you're looking for.

 

[X-Maniac]

You got to know something about each ones background in Apocalypse. You learn nothing about TBO. Let's not do the revisionist history thing to make IW seem superior.

Well, Storm and Pyslocke could have been tied into the story in other ways, to be honest.

And we never found out much about Psylocke, did we?

 

[Drexelhand]

Well, Storm and Pyslocke could have been tied into the story in other ways, to be honest.

And we never found out much about Psylocke, did we?

We were never directly told anything, I think. We know though that she had a past with Angel and disliked Mystique's status among mutants. That was about it, though.

 

[Lip]

You got to know something about each ones background in Apocalypse. You learn nothing about TBO. Let's not do the revisionist history thing to make IW seem superior.

X-Men Apocalypse deals with 12+ characters. Infinity War is dealing with 30+ characters, and yet it managed to deal with their characters and handle an ensemble much better the the X-Men movies.

And Proxima Midnight, Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian are not in the same level as the A-List characters like Storm, Psylocke and Warren. It's extremely embarrasing that we're comparing these characters. And the fact that we got to the point of comparing Proxima Midnight with Storm, it only shows how much superior treatment of the characters in the MCU is when compared to FOX's.

 

[X-Maniac]

If the MCU embraced the material for Infinity War, we'd be seeing Adam Warlock instead of Captain Marvel in it. Don't **** yourself about that. Embracing the material aesthetically is what you're looking for.

Not just aesthetically, but in giving them personalities, making them matter.

If Kinberg is going to bother adding such classsic characters as Jubilee, Psylocke, Storm, let's see why these characters choose to do what they do, let's see that it was worth the effort of including them, that they have reason to be there. Otherwise they are just ciphers.

 

[Drexelhand]

Not just aesthetically, but in giving them personalities, making them matter.

If Kinberg is going to bother adding such classsic characters as Jubilee, Psylocke, Storm, let's see why these characters choose to do what they do, let's see that it was worth the effort of including them, that they have reason to be there. Otherwise they are just ciphers.

I get that. Had that scene of Storm, where she explains how she was hunted as a witch - which is a neat contrast to her origin as a Kenyan Goddess I think - for her powers would have gone a long way. There's a lot in Apocalypse that is inexplicably cut.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Because stock characters in one film are round in the next so you never really feel like you don't know them.

So can we say this about the stock characters in the previous X-men film that were also...stock characters in the next one?

While no one knows if Storm will be a "mute mannequin" this is the film series and not the comics so they won't change the film's layout to fit in with the comic storyline structure.

And this overall treatment is nothing different to what Marvel or WB do with their movies.

You're basically admitting that as long as the FC trio (and Beast...LOL) are around the X-men members will always play second fiddle.

 

[GuestStar2004]

You're basically admitting that as long as the FC trio (and Beast...LOL) are around the X-men members will always play second fiddle.

Thats what you read into it, but thats not what i said.

 

[EnDz0n3]

How else is one supposed to interpret what you said?

 

[Drexelhand]

So can we say this about the stock characters in the previous X-men film that were also...stock characters in the next one?

In regards to the original trilogy, the cast in some cases may not have gotten a lot of screen time, but they certainly weren't stock characters. Scott, Jean, Storm, Nightcrawler, Beast, Rogue, Kitty and Bobby all had arcs, stories and personalities - even if they weren't as well developed as the comics. They are the reason I believe Days of Future Past was so successful, it was almost a decade after The Last Stand and it was like seeing old friends one more time.

 

[GuestStar2004]

How else is one supposed to interpret what you said?

As you tell the story with the characters and overall setup from by the films. you don't structure a films characters or set up based on who was in the comic adaption.

Now if you wanna read that as blah blah FC trio (LOLS) then thats what you read into it.

 

[Jh7058622]

X-Men Apocalypse deals with 12+ characters. Infinity War is dealing with 30+ characters, and yet it managed to deal with their characters and handle an ensemble much better the the X-Men movies.

And Proxima Midnight, Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian are not in the same level as the A-List characters like Storm, Psylocke and Warren. It's extremely embarrasing that we're comparing these characters. And the fact that we got to the point of comparing Proxima Midnight with Storm, it only shows how much superior treatment of the characters in the MCU is when compared to FOX's.

I didn't compare them someone else did and I put how asinine an argument that is.

 

[x-er]

Umm Thanos goons had NO characterization at ALL.At least The Horseman you got to learn something... anything about them at all.

the issue isn't about whether or not they got some characterization, it's that in the XMen film all four of Apocalypse's horsemen were A-listers (Magneto, Psylocke, Storm, Angel) whereas Thanos' minions weren't very important. A-listers meaning they were some of the most prominent characters in the history of the comicbooks. They definitely needed more characterization.

Angel should have had a longer arc spanning over several films, not a quick transformation and sudden death in one .

 

[X-Maniac]

As you tell the story with the characters and overall setup from by the films. you don't structure a films characters or set up based on who was in the comic adaption.

Now if you wanna read that as blah blah FC trio (LOLS) then thats what you read into it.

It's not compulsory to build these films around the 'FC trio'.

That's what Kinberg/Fox choose to do. They even paid hefty sums to bring back J-Law and Fassbender for Dark Phoenix when, arguably, those characters were not really needed.

And the box office for First Class and X:A indicate that the 'FC trio' are not really massive draws who bring in big money.

Kinberg thinks he is doing the comic book story justice by borrowing some pages from the comics (a claim we also heard for X3) and yet he is inserting Magneto and Mystique into the script when they were not in the original saga.

Not bringing those two back would probably have saved around $30million that could have been better spent on other things like Shi'ar or Hellfire Club.

Mystique's

Spoiler

alleged death gets the characters running around reacting and doing various things. Beast is griefstricken and goes to see Magneto, etc. So even in death this horrid version of Mystique is a driving force in the screenplay. It sounds like the characters are reacting more to Mystique's demise than they are to Jean's descent into darkness.

 

[SumT]

You're basically admitting that as long as the FC trio (and Beast...LOL) are around the X-men members will always play second fiddle.

or like saying: "just accept mediocrity, this is how the franchise is handled, so deal with poor roles for the X-Men, its fine, movies are not the comics"

Spoiler

.............

Spoiler

 

[GuestStar2004]

Kinberg thinks he is doing the comic book story justice by borrowing some pages from the comics (a claim we also heard for X3) and yet he is inserting Magneto and Mystique into the script when they were not in the original saga.

So What? That's not how comic book movies work. You don't not include characters just because they were not in the comic version.

Not bringing those two back would probably have saved around $30million that could have been better spent on other things like Shi'ar or Hellfire Club.

That's weird logic. They already have aliens involved and they ain't the shi'ar. No matter how much added money would make much difference on which version of aliens it is and the hellfire club could probably be involved either way with or without magneto, mystique or extra money

 

[Fallen]

It's not compulsory to build these films around the 'FC trio'.

That's what Kinberg/Fox choose to do. They even paid hefty sums to bring back J-Law and Fassbender for Dark Phoenix when, arguably, those characters were not really needed.

And the box office for First Class and X:A indicate that the 'FC trio' are not really massive draws who bring in big money.

Kinberg thinks he is doing the comic book story justice by borrowing some pages from the comics (a claim we also heard for X3) and yet he is inserting Magneto and Mystique into the script when they were not in the original saga.

FOX doesn't realize yet that the X-Men is what sells: the ensemble factor of these films. Not just two actors.

 

[Cktopl33]

The article's from 2017, aka way before they postponned the movie, so it's very likely that things, the duration of reshoots have changed.

Oh, I see. The article was referring to when the film was IN production. Since there was no link I had to search for it. I thought it was referring to the upcoming reshoots later this year.

 

[Alison Blaire]

New Kinberg picture

 

[Cktopl33]

Yeah because Infinity War 2 is perfect and will never ever need any reshoots. Oh wait...

Huh? You mean Avengers 4? We knew about those reshoots awhile ago. My point was that people were stating Dark Phoenix is supposedly to have extensive reshoots......with an under 10 million budget, which does not equal extensive.

 

[Cktopl33]

Not just aesthetically, but in giving them personalities, making them matter.

If Kinberg is going to bother adding such classsic characters as Jubilee, Psylocke, Storm, let's see why these characters choose to do what they do, let's see that it was worth the effort of including them, that they have reason to be there. Otherwise they are just ciphers.

We will have to see how Kinberg decides to handles these characters as a director. The first trailer will show his aesthetic approach to the series. We will see what he does with the characters he chose when the film releases now that everything is under his control. It seems he was eager to have control over his own script this time around according to one statement he made:

I’m a big believer that having one writer the whole time is better than having a lot of different writers coming in and punching up scripts because I think it makes for a more organic, singular movie when you have that.

 

[x-er]

could singer come back and make an "organic" X5 then?

 

[Jh7058622]

Huh? You mean Avengers 4? We knew about those reshoots awhile ago. My point was that people were stating Dark Phoenix is supposedly to have extensive reshoots......with an under 10 million budget, which does not equal extensive.

I know I was agreeing with the sentiment with sarcasm because everyone was making it seem like reshoots equal bad movie like all films that have them are doomed to fail but most films have them including Avengers 4. People like to have the world is falling mentality about this film for no reason.

 

[Cktopl33]

It's not compulsory to build these films around the 'FC trio'.

That's what Kinberg/Fox choose to do. They even paid hefty sums to bring back J-Law and Fassbender for Dark Phoenix when, arguably, those characters were not really needed.

And the box office for First Class and X:A indicate that the 'FC trio' are not really massive draws who bring in big money.

Kinberg thinks he is doing the comic book story justice by borrowing some pages from the comics (a claim we also heard for X3) and yet he is inserting Magneto and Mystique into the script when they were not in the original saga.

This is an adaptation, not a copy of the comics. The Dark Phoenix saga is a product of the mid late 70s and a bit dated. Even the 90s cartoon adaptation included several characters that were not part of the original comic (rogue, jubilee, gambit - while excluding colossus, nightcrawler, Angel, Banshee) both in the Phoenix saga and Dark Phoenix saga. Wolverine and the X-men's adaptation nearly completely changed the story.

Lawrence led her own franchise after she did First Class and went on to win several academy & golden globe awards. Michael Fassbender also went on to win several academy and golden globe awards, as has James McAvoy who has won several british Academy awards and golden globes nomination who is currently heading up a successful horror franchise. First Class was still considered a box office success, it simply didn't make as much money but it was more of a critical success than the first 3 x-men films. Days of Future Past was the highest rated of the x-men film series that gave more screen time to the First Class trio since it primarily focused on the past. X-men Apocalypse was just not a well made film, period: bad direction, bad story, not that great aesthetics.