Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix News and Speculation Thread - - - - - - Part 15

[GuestStar2004]

You say that as if you’ve proven you were right. You haven’t.

Well screw logic i guess.

 

[psylockolussus]

Singer was going to do X3 and X4 back to back, Cyclops/ Jean being the focus.

Was that even set in stone? I think they were just ideas. Also I don't remember anyone stating that Singer's X3/X4 would have focused on Cyclops.

I remember Singer saying that Fox didn't agree with what he wanted, and If I read correctly that was even before Wb offered Superman to Singer.

 

[X-Maniac]

If Charles part of saving the president was televised he'd be hero worshipped too. So no you're rewriting history not anyone else who points that out.

You're the one who is rewriting history. All the choices were made by Mystique. She was regarded as the hero in the next movie.

I'm more interested in why you are trying to downplay this. Is it because you know Mystique's domination of these films has been badly received, and had no real contribution to box office? So you're now trying to move the goalposts and say that what we saw in the movies was not what we saw in the movies.

Nice try sunshine. But you'll need to do better. The evidence was right there on screen. How about instead saying "Yes the studio screwed up in making such an ungrateful self-centred actress the focus of these films when she can't even name five of the X-Men in a lie detector test. Hopefully there will be a dramatic shift of focus in the next film."

Just be honest, stop trying it on with BS excuses.

You think everyone who gets celebrity deserves the sole ownership for why they got there?

She was given 'sole ownership' by the world. Charles went unrecognised. So she is the hero.

It sounds to me like some of you *know* this plot point is going to be conveniently forgotten in the next movie.

This is the sort of thing this franchise does very often. Suddenly, Mystique was the founder of the X-Men who recalled how they came up with the name, when we know from the end of First Class that's not how it happened. Are we in for another 'no it really didn't happen like that, it went down like this' in Dark Phoenix?

Such a shame that Cyclops will likely only act like leader as soon as Mystique is out of the picture. They crap on some of our favourite characters over and over. I like Mystique in the comic books. On screen, not at all.

 

[Drexelhand]

Charles Xavier -> Gets Mystique to go down his path by giving her full autonomy, thus proving to her that his dream works and by convincing her to follow his dream, she saves the day. Thus, the day is saved by Charles Xavier's dream.


If A leads to B and B leads to C then logically A also leads to C.

 

[Madam-Shogun]

TBH X3 is a really infuriating film, it's the only X-Film i don't like. Hell i think it's worse than Apocalypse, which i actually enjoyed on a superficial entertainment level. But i couldn't with X3. I would argue that's the only bad X-Men film, but people make it seem like there was nothing but back to back turds lol. Thats just not true, FOX had more hits than misses with the franchise.

 

[Frankeh]

Such a shame that Cyclops will likely only act like leader as soon as Mystique is out of the picture. They crap on some of our favourite characters over and over. I like Mystique in the comic books. On screen, not at all.

A-men.

If it were up to Singer and Kinberg, Mystique would be in the opening credits of the Animated Series as part of the X-Men, LOL! It's just ridiculous to me.

I could live (on some level) with her role in Days of Future Past despite JLaw's uninvested performance while X-Men like Kitty Pryde and Storm got minuscule roles, but her role in Apocalypse is a flat out IDGAF to the mythos. I never once thought we would get original X-Men (Cyclops and Jean Grey) being inspired by Mystique of all people. Bleh.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Well screw logic i guess.

Between your “You just made a mountain out of a molehill” and now this ^^^ you seriously are running out of valid points and are just talking in platitudes.

I could live (on some level) with her role in Days of Future Past despite JLaw's uninvested performance while X-Men like Kitty Pryde and Storm got minuscule roles, but her role in Apocalypse is a flat out IDGAF to the mythos. I never once thought we would get original X-Men (Cyclops and Jean Grey) being inspired by Mystique of all people. Bleh.

"That was a trilogy and you can't very well get rid of a main character on the third movie of your trilogy, can you? Stop making a mountain out of a molehill!"

Fans would later learn of JLaw's and Fassbender's return to the fourth movie of the franchise. A movie they would reportedly get the lion's share of the cast budget...

 

[henzINNIT]

Original ideas for Cylcops in X3 were talked about, and sounded great. He was going to have taken Jean's death hard of course, but instead of sulking in his room he builds the Danger Room to better train the X-Men, believing if they were better prepared he could have saved Jean.


I always liked the idea of Sigourney Weaver as Emma Frost as well. She would have made a great foil for Stewart and McKellen.

I will never understand people railing against Rogue taking the cure as much as they did. I think it's because people lost out on "Miss Marvel Rogue", per the wishes of fans prior to the event.
The movie essentially says "Decide for yourself, not based on what others want".

I'm sure many fans were indeed disappointed to see Rogue's powers cured and not enhanced. There's also these:


- It plays poorly when viewed as the gay/minority allegory mutation often embodies. Rogue's power is fairly useless and comes at great personal cost so the cure is practical. As a metaphor, it has ugly connotations.
- Rogue's choice gets barely any screen time so we don't get to live in her struggle.
- The little time we get with Rogue centers on her jealousy over Bobby interacting with Kitty. She visibly reacts when Logan says he hopes she's not acting because of "some boy". Rogue says the cure was for her, but the film suggests she's lying.


Ultimately the choice she makes is less detrimental than the way it was handled.

That's not true. It was a bad script.

IIRC There were plans for Rogue to join/infiltrate Magneto's brotherhood but Paquin's schedule wouldn't allow for it.


Mystique was supposed to be playing chess with Magneto at the end as well if not for scheduling issues.

 

[psylockolussus]

Sigourney as Emma would have met with mixed reactions. I mean, we know what she looks like in the comics.... Thing is if they are going to adapt someone,they should respect what they look like in the source material and not adapt it so differently in the film medium. Also, especially who needs a 60 something Emma when you got Cassandra Nova Prime.

 

[The Guard]

I'm sure many fans were indeed disappointed to see Rogue's powers cured and not enhanced. There's also these:

- It plays poorly when viewed as the gay/minority allegory mutation often embodies. Rogue's power is fairly useless and comes at great personal cost so the cure is practical. As a metaphor, it has ugly connotations.

Mutation was never intended to only be an allegory for gays and minorities. Singer viewed it partially through that lens, but it is certainly not limited to that.

Viewing it only through that lens is a narrow way to interpret both the character of Rogue and the idea of a cure for...anything. She's not someone who looks different or has a different ability. She's someone who literally cannot physically interact with people without seriously harming them.

How is it ugly if the indication is that taking the cure is a choice made by the person who is afflicted with the "mutation"?

One problem with the reaction to the movie is that the cure is viewed as necessarily evil. It's not, and it's never meant to be. The movie presents both sides of the cure. There are those who want to use the cure to help others, and those who want to weaponize it.

- Rogue's choice gets barely any screen time so we don't get to live in her struggle.

There are like three separate scenes about it involving her, and a few other scenes where the cure is discussed. Rogue's arc is not limited to just her arc, but is also part of the larger exploration of the concept of the cure. In an ensemble movie and for a supporting character, the concept gets quite a bit of exploration as it related to Rogue.

- The little time we get with Rogue centers on her jealousy over Bobby interacting with Kitty. She visibly reacts when Logan says he hopes she's not acting because of "some boy". Rogue says the cure was for her, but the film suggests she's lying.

The film does not suggest she's lying, unless you just believe she's a liar on principle. The film has two characters test her to see why she's doing what she's doing in Logan and Bobby, and the film has her outright say she did it for herself.

 

[psylockolussus]

I'm thinking about Dark Phoenix's timetable from now:

August - none if the reshoots are canceled or happening in another month
September - first trailer to be attached in Olivia Munn's film/poster
October - New York Comic Con
December - second trailer to be attached in Battle Angel
Jan/Feb - promotional tour
February - Theatrical release
May - digital/home media

That's IF when Dark Phoenix is not released straight to streaming.

 

[psyonic]

Was that even set in stone? I think they were just ideas. Also I don't remember anyone stating that Singer's X3/X4 would have focused on Cyclops.

I remember Singer saying that Fox didn't agree with what he wanted, and If I read correctly that was even before Wb offered Superman to Singer.

Michael Dougherty did a podcast saying Cyclops would have blamed himself for Jean's death and feels that they weren't prepared for threats so he trains in the Danger Room, among other tidbits, you can still find this podcast

 

[psyonic]

Yeah Rogue attends Brotherhood meetings, I'm assuming the forest scenes where Logan goes instead, it never made sense for him to go then return, like did he have all that time traveling? Rogue's loyalty would have been questioned by the audience. Beast, Kitty and Iceman would have had a sequence where they infiltrate the lab where the cure was kept.

Alcatraz was Act 2 with Mystique being held captive there and cured, finale was Washington DC, Brotherhood was to attack the mansion with Scarlet Witch/ Avalanche in the mix. Mystique was going to meet up with Erik in the park scene, she was on his side all along.

 

[x-er]

Original ideas for Cylcops in X3 were talked about, and sounded great. He was going to have taken Jean's death hard of course, but instead of sulking in his room he builds the Danger Room to better train the X-Men, believing if they were better prepared he could have saved Jean.


I always liked the idea of Sigourney Weaver as Emma Frost as well. She would have made a great foil for Stewart and McKellen.






I'm sure many fans were indeed disappointed to see Rogue's powers cured and not enhanced. There's also these:


- It plays poorly when viewed as the gay/minority allegory mutation often embodies. Rogue's power is fairly useless and comes at great personal cost so the cure is practical. As a metaphor,it has ugly connotations
- Rogue's choice gets barely any screen time so we don't get to live in her struggle.
- The little time we get with Rogue centers on her jealousy over Bobby interacting with Kitty. She visibly reacts when Logan says he hopes she's not acting because of "some boy". Rogue says the cure was for her, but the film suggests she's lying.
.

Ultimately the choice she makes is less detrimental than the way it was handled.






IIRC There were plans for Rogue to join/infiltrate Magneto's brotherhood but Paquin's schedule wouldn't allow for it.


Mystique was supposed to be playing chess with Magneto at the end as well if not for scheduling issues.

So you're basically saying Rogue's a homosexual person who was jealous because her partner found someone he could love better and so she just got rid of her sexual identity instead to be with him (based on that awful alternate ending). I'm not sure Rogue's really meant as a reference for homosexuals sometimes. She's got what some people consider a gift but she (and many others) really sees as a curse. To me she's the one X-Men character who shows you what it's like to feel marginalized in a an already marginalized community. And Fox took away the superpower instead of creating a symbol for everyone out there who was following herstory from day one and who could have wound up admiring her quite a bit. She means way more than sexual orientation to me is all I'm saying. I'm not saying sexual orientation is not important, but there's more to a person than that and there's definitely more to rogue too.

 

[kevork89]

Sigourney as Emma would have met with mixed reactions. I mean, we know what she looks like in the comics.... Thing is if they are going to adapt someone,they should respect what they look like in the source material and not adapt it so differently in the film medium. Also, especially who needs a 60 something Emma when you got Cassandra Nova Prime.

If you have seen Heartbreakers Sigourney could’ve easily pulled off Emma.

Looks aren’t everything when it comes to capturing these characters. I think Zazie was proof of that in Deadpool

 

[Jh7058622]

I'm glad someone said it this woman

Could never look anything like Emma Frost and what a terrible actress she is. probably has never won an award in her life let alone two for acting in different categories the same award show... oh wait.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Between your “You just made a mountain out of a molehill” and now this ^^^ you seriously are running out of valid points and are just talking in platitudes.

Not out of Valid points. just out of energy.

 

[psylockolussus]

Michael Dougherty did a podcast saying Cyclops would have blamed himself for Jean's death and feels that they weren't prepared for threats so he trains in the Danger Room, among other tidbits, you can still find this podcast

I don't see that as him getting the main focus but just his potential role.

If you have seen Heartbreakers Sigourney could’ve easily pulled off Emma.

Looks aren’t everything when it comes to capturing these characters. I think Zazie was proof of that in Deadpool

Who looked nothing like Domino. She was basically Domino in powers only.

If you think people would have loved to see Emma in her 50s or 60s for her debut film, then I agree to disagree.

 

[Zarex]

With the news yesterday that the Disney streaming service won't go live until late 2019, the chances of a Dark Phoenix theatrical release seem more likely. The timing may work for a New Mutants streaming debut, but Disney may not want to relese a new Fox X-Men film after international regulatory approval is received and Feige gets full control over the mutants.

 

[Crimson99]

Xmen Dark Phoenix is going to be amazing from what I have heard. The problem with Apocalypse movie was it felt like a cheaply made disaster film ala Emmerich. The characters and depth of personal relationships is what makes the other Xmen films so great and not destruction confetti on screen.

I think that the last time we have seen that type of character depth in the Xmen series film was DoFP with the old cast interacting with the new cast. And also with Mystique being torn with the differing visions of mutantkind between Charles Xavier and Magneto.

I have liked the direction the Fox has taken the Xmen brand for it has provided new refreshing twists that were sorely needed that the Xmen comics have lacked for the last 20 years. Logan film is another good example of this where it was able to weave in new ideas along with the old for the modern comic book fan era.

It would be interesting to see the Claremont/Lee version of Xmen on the big screen with Disney. But I have to admit I wouldn't be as hyped about it, because it is ground that other super hero movies have covered already (eg Avengers). I grew up with the Claremont/Lee version of the Xmen so I know all the ins and outs about that era of the X-books. But honestly I think a lot of people are seeing through a lens of nostalgia when talking about that era and wanting to see it on the big screen.

For example, Cyclops and Storm being leaders of the Xmen. While that may be congruent with what comic book readers are used to seeing from that era of the X-books it probably doesn't translate well to the big screen.

The conflict between Xavier and Magneto through the Xmen film series have been proven to be a successful backbone that ties all the films together. Cyclops/Storm up against Magneto doesn't sound as good as Xavier vs Magneto. For one, Cyclops/Storm are not a peer of Magneto's and two they don't have a close relationship to Magneto like Charles Xavier.

 

[blackdragon6]

TBH X3 is a really infuriating film, it's the only X-Film i don't like. Hell i think it's worse than Apocalypse, which i actually enjoyed on a superficial entertainment level. But i couldn't with X3. I would argue that's the only bad X-Men film, but people make it seem like there was nothing but back to back turds lol. Thats just not true, FOX had more hits than misses with the franchise.

100% agreed...People also tends to overlook how well received First Class was.

 

[BMM]

Looks aren’t everything when it comes to capturing these characters. I think Zazie was proof of that in Deadpool

Ian McKellen is proof of that. People didn’t want a “geriatric” Magneto, and he is one of the best things about the franchise.

 

[psylockolussus]

And obviously Magneto is a teenager in the comics without white/grey hair.

Anyway, let's cast actresses in their 60s for the role of Jean, Storm, Psylocke and Rogue inthe MCU reboot because talent wins. Never mind that its supposed to be an adaptation.

 

[henzINNIT]

Mutation was never intended to only be an allegory for gays and minorities. Singer viewed it partially through that lens, but it is certainly not limited to that.

Viewing it only through that lens is a narrow way to interpret both the character of Rogue and the idea of a cure for...anything. She's not someone who looks different or has a different ability. She's someone who literally cannot physically interact with people without seriously harming them.

Not sure what you're arguing with here bud. I already agreed the cure is practical in Rogue's case. I just pointed out that it doesn't sit well with the metaphors the films have been dabbling with. This franchise started in a concentration camp, you can't ignore the parallels after they've been established.

How is it ugly if the indication is that taking the cure is a choice made by the person who is afflicted with the "mutation"?


One problem with the reaction to the movie is that the cure is viewed as necessarily evil. It's not, and it's never meant to be. The movie presents both sides of the cure. There are those who want to use the cure to help others, and those who want to weaponize it.

I would argue that it is potentially very ugly to depict a character who is in an oppressed minority cure themselves of their biological differences in order to be normal.


I agree about this part completely. The Cure is a really interesting question to drop into this universe, precisely because of all these implications. As I said before, it's ultimately the script that fails to exploit this. Rogue's huge decision was wasted either way, perfectly represented by the fact it was shot both ways.

There are like three separate scenes about it involving her, and a few other scenes where the cure is discussed. Rogue's arc is not limited to just her arc, but is also part of the larger exploration of the concept of the cure. In an ensemble movie and for a supporting character, the concept gets quite a bit of exploration as it related to Rogue.

Rogue's screen time is so limited I can recall if off the top of my head:


- Rogue in the Danger Room, witnesses Bobby hug Kitty and looks jealous.
- Rogue is salty to Bobby in a mansion corridor, accusing him of "only wanting one thing" from her.
- Rogue discovers the cure on TV and runs to ask the Professor if it's true. Storm gives a terrible speech.
- Rogue attends Xavier's funeral and places a flower at his headstone.

- Rogue is upset to witness Bobby and Kitty ice-skating.
- Rogue is caught by Logan leaving the mansion. She reacts when he warns not to do something over "some boy", but is ultimately told to do whatever she wants.
- Rogue arrives at a cure facility.
- Rogue returns cured, assures Bobby it's what she wanted.


In short, this sucks. She has a smattering of scenes almost completely centered on a love triangle which completely undermines the weight of Rogue's decision.


I'd grant you the ensemble argument if the rest of the film wasn't just as under-written, but it is. Rogue should be talking to Beast who is sympathetic to her struggle, or Angel who is her age and just refused the cure. What did she encounter in line for the cure? Anti-mutant humans? Anti-cure mutants? How about Logan really challenges Rogue as she departs. He accuses her of taking the easy way out, changing to fit in, and she defiantly retorts "I wanna be able to touch people" and we see how the "implications" weigh on a young woman who has an incredibly isolating condition. I dunno. Feels like a lot of wasted potential.

The film does not suggest she's lying, unless you just believe she's a liar on principle. The film has two characters test her to see why she's doing what she's doing in Logan and Bobby, and the film has her outright say she did it for herself.

The film absolutely suggests that Rogue's decision to take the cure is affected by her strained relationship with Bobby. She literally sneaks out to get cured after seeing her boyfriend with another girl. This trivializes an important decision by muddying her motive.


That's not to suggest Rogue is consciously lying about it. Far worse, it implies that she is mistaken.

 

[BMM]

And obviously Magneto is a teenager in the comics without white/grey hair.

Anyway, let's cast actresses in their 60s for the role of Jean, Storm, Psylocke and Rogue inthe MCU reboot because talent wins. Never mind that its supposed to be an adaptation.

LOL. You really are terrible at this.