Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 1 Episode 21 "Ragtag"

[the dmg]

This is exactly what I think they were trying to show us.

Same. At least I hope. The flashback initially had me thinking Garrett, but it's a good mislead to give people a false sense that Ward is still a good person.

 

[cherokeesam]

No idea. Mike himself was a Centipede soldier at first, then later converted to Deathlok. These guys could be the same way. I don't think they're surviving Deathlok soldiers because the impression I got was that Mike and Garrett were the only ones who underwent the transformation. Maybe newly created ones.

If you use eyebombs as indicators of "Deathloks," there's actually been several in the series, and probably many more by extension. Akela, "The Englishman," there was one other Deathlok/Centipede who got eyebombed in a midseason episode....As someone else pointed out above, the file room at Cybertek seemed to be full of records on *bunches* of Deathloks. And that seemed to be what Quinn was peddling to the US gubmint at the end of last night's show.

If it was Garrett who shot the dog, why did Ward have a flashback of that moment, seen through someone else's eyes...when he was dealing with the exact same issue (whether or not he can kill a friend).

Um, because flashbacks can be, and usually are, in 3rd person instead of 1st person....?

If the flashback had been personal and specific to Ward, they would've used something like a V.O. to show that. Showing Garrett kill the dog showed how much of a *****e he really is. Plus, it makes no sense for the flashback to be about Ward having an attack of conscience when asked to shoot his dog, then flash forward to him *not* having an attack of conscience when asked to shoot his teammates.

Ward let FitzSimmons live. If he had followed Garrett's orders to the letter, he would've just capped them with the pistol, like he originally intended. Instead, he admits to FitzSimmons that he still has that "weakness" (i.e., a conscience), and drops them into the ocean. Yeah, they could still die, but he also is well aware that they're both resourceful enough to survive. So he's giving them a chance, even if it's a slim one.

Also, final point about "who shot the dog": Ward doesn't have the rifle in that scene; he has a pistol. Garrett has the .50 cal. End of story.

something of possible note that I haven't seen be mentioned, yet. the news report at the beginning of the episode details Alejandro Castillo, a Hydra-linked drug dealer, being murdered by Deathlok. Castillo is supposed to be the villain in the Ant-man movie. Michael Pena is up for the role. I wonder if there's a link.

I didn't catch it, but I think you're right. Good eye. We might have our first "tie-in" to the Ant-Man movie.

 

[BoredGuy]

This episode was very good
only things that bothered me:

-3 cliffhangers at the end of one episode...really SHIELD?
-Ward getting his redemption... not a fan of the character, So I just Don't care. I'd rather Bill Paxton get redeemed, he was a better addition to the team
-Killing a dog. I swear, this is tv and movie's "Women in Refrigerators", it's a cheap scheme to drum up emotion and shorthand for how eeeeeviilllllll someone is. Plus my girlfriend's a huge animal lover, so it sucks that she doesn't want to watch ANY good shows any more because they all kill off a pet. I'll blame "I Am Legend" for starting it...

 

[Heretic]

If you use eyebombs as indicators of "Deathloks," there's actually been several in the series, and probably many more by extension. Akela, "The Englishman," there was one other Deathlok/Centipede who got eyebombed in a midseason episode....As someone else pointed out above, the file room at Cybertek seemed to be full of records on *bunches* of Deathloks. And that seemed to be what Quinn was peddling to the US gubmint at the end of last night's show.



Um, because flashbacks can be, and usually are, in 3rd person instead of 1st person....?

If the flashback had been personal and specific to Ward, they would've used something like a V.O. to show that. Showing Garrett kill the dog showed how much of a *****e he really is. Plus, it makes no sense for the flashback to be about Ward having an attack of conscience when asked to shoot his dog, then flash forward to him *not* having an attack of conscience when asked to shoot his teammates.

Ward let FitzSimmons live. If he had followed Garrett's orders to the letter, he would've just capped them with the pistol, like he originally intended. Instead, he admits to FitzSimmons that he still has that "weakness" (i.e., a conscience), and drops them into the ocean. Yeah, they could still die, but he also is well aware that they're both resourceful enough to survive. So he's giving them a chance, even if it's a slim one.

Also, final point about "who shot the dog": Ward doesn't have the rifle in that scene; he has a pistol. Garrett has the .50 cal. End of story.



I didn't catch it, but I think you're right. Good eye. We might have our first "tie-in" to the Ant-Man movie.

That's a lot of hoops to jump through. I'm not saying that the show won't jump through those hoops just to show how "clever" they are...but it'd be kind of silly.

And we all saw how those hoops worked out for the people saying that Skye had secretly let Ward live and given them the secret files as part of a brilliant scheme to show what a great agent she is. Turns out, she was just a weak person whose decision has endangered many innocent lives.

And since when is it the norm for a flashback in the middle of a scene to not involve anyone else in the present scene?

 

[marcvader]

and therefor should die!

 

[Dregride]

Um, because flashbacks can be, and usually are, in 3rd person instead of 1st person....?

If the flashback had been personal and specific to Ward, they would've used something like a V.O. to show that. Showing Garrett kill the dog showed how much of a *****e he really is. Plus, it makes no sense for the flashback to be about Ward having an attack of conscience when asked to shoot his dog, then flash forward to him *not* having an attack of conscience when asked to shoot his teammates.

Ward let FitzSimmons live. If he had followed Garrett's orders to the letter, he would've just capped them with the pistol, like he originally intended. Instead, he admits to FitzSimmons that he still has that "weakness" (i.e., a conscience), and drops them into the ocean. Yeah, they could still die, but he also is well aware that they're both resourceful enough to survive. So he's giving them a chance, even if it's a slim one.

Also, final point about "who shot the dog": Ward doesn't have the rifle in that scene; he has a pistol. Garrett has the .50 cal. End of story.

End of story? Not really
Few points of response
1. It's a pretty wild assumption that flashbacks are usually told 3rd person
A lot of flashbacks are in fact told through first person whenever they are a personal story, I'm assuming from the fact that only ward is ever seen alone in a flashback scene( him under the tree in the rain, him hesitating but ultimately shooting buddy with the rifle since he got too far away) that the flashbacks are being told from his point of view, that these flashbacks are about what's happening to him.

And no, personal flashback scenes do not require VO.

2. What these flashbacks showed was that ward considers having an emotional connection with anything or anyone a weakness( thanks to garret) it's been shown and stated throughout the whole season that ward pushes his emotions away so he can do his job properly, because again he sees that emotion as a weakness

So here's Fitz and Simmons who locked themselves in a heavy sealed container( because ward didn't just break through the glass and shoot them I'm assuming that the glass is bullet proof. Fitz tells him "I know you still care about us ward!"
I says he know and it's a weakness, so he ejects the container into the middle of the fricken ocean, and since the episodes poster shows fitzsimmons in the container underwater it's safe to assume that the container did in fact sink.

He was close to them so he killed them in a way that he wouldn't have to watch them die, just like the dog( who he shot from a sniper scope from far away)

3. The sniper scope. We see earlier, ward shooting shooting an elk from a long distance away( I don't remember the exact distance but it was a large distance) we see from his point of view the sniper scope. When he aims away and fires the gun the dog runs off. When we see it again from the sniper scope so it can be assumed it was pretty far away. And some dogs may be fast, but they're not flash so it definitely took the dog a little bit to get that far away, giving ward enough time to get the sniper, and(using his specialist skills) find the dog to mortally wound it from a distance.

He killed the dog just like he killed fitzsimmons ( although I do agree with that they could survive) in a way that ensures that they will be far away and he won't have to watch them die.

They also made a point of showing ward shooting the elk and showing the scope for a reason, so we're not confused as to who shot the dog and thinking"where did the sniper come from?"

Wow this has to be my second longest post ever, on any site

 

[the dmg]

Showing Garrett kill the dog showed how much of a *****e he really is.

It's implied, but Garrett isn't shown doing the deed. It's a scope. Remember, Ward states that it takes the dog a while to find the animals.

Plus, it makes no sense for the flashback to be about Ward having an attack of conscience when asked to shoot his dog, then flash forward to him *not* having an attack of conscience when asked to shoot his teammates.

Ward let FitzSimmons live. If he had followed Garrett's orders to the letter, he would've just capped them with the pistol, like he originally intended. Instead, he admits to FitzSimmons that he still has that "weakness" (i.e., a conscience), and drops them into the ocean. Yeah, they could still die, but he also is well aware that they're both resourceful enough to survive. So he's giving them a chance, even if it's a slim one.

Or it could be that he couldn't kill his attachments up close. His back is turned when he drops them in the water and the dog is from a far out distance through scope. Ward has stated he's done terrible things and that he's not a good person, he does what needs to be done.

Also, final point about "who shot the dog": Ward doesn't have the rifle in that scene; he has a pistol. Garrett has the .50 cal. End of story.

The dog is shown wandering in search, it's plausible he went to camp and collected the rifle. It could go either way, but we'll see. I really hope they don't do the redemption thing because it's cliche, but this show has done it a lot already, so it wouldn't surprise me.

But...then there is the thing about Garrett having Deathlok tail Ward because Garrett knows Ward's weakness to people he gets close to. So even if Ward didn't kill the dog, Garrett sees the huge potential in Ward, so he gives him a pass.

 

[Heretic]

and therefor should die!

Skye? No, she doesn't have to die. However, they started the season with her as a really weak character...and after a full season she is still a really weak character. And lets face it...odds are that her stupid decision will end up not coming back to haunt her. That is why I had such a problem with the SHIELD agents bumbling around like keystone cops in the most recent episode. At what point are they going to start taking this seriously?

 

[terry78]

Why does this goddamn dog get more discussion than every other plot line in this thing? I am going to go kick the **** out of a puppy when I get off work because of this.

 

[kosh33]

End of story? Not really
Few points of response
1. It's a pretty wild assumption that flashbacks are usually told 3rd person
A lot of flashbacks are in fact told through first person whenever they are a personal story, I'm assuming from the fact that only ward is ever seen alone in a flashback scene( him under the tree in the rain, him hesitating but ultimately shooting buddy with the rifle since he got too far away) that the flashbacks are being told from his point of view, that these flashbacks are about what's happening to him.

And no, personal flashback scenes do not require VO.

2. What these flashbacks showed was that ward considers having an emotional connection with anything or anyone a weakness( thanks to garret) it's been shown and stated throughout the whole season that ward pushes his emotions away so he can do his job properly, because again he sees that emotion as a weakness

So here's Fitz and Simmons who locked themselves in a heavy sealed container( because ward didn't just break through the glass and shoot them I'm assuming that the glass is bullet proof. Fitz tells him "I know you still care about us ward!"
I says he know and it's a weakness, so he ejects the container into the middle of the fricken ocean, and since the episodes poster shows fitzsimmons in the container underwater it's safe to assume that the container did in fact sink.

He was close to them so he killed them in a way that he wouldn't have to watch them die, just like the dog( who he shot from a sniper scope from far away)

3. The sniper scope. We see earlier, ward shooting shooting an elk from a long distance away( I don't remember the exact distance but it was a large distance) we see from his point of view the sniper scope. When he aims away and fires the gun the dog runs off. When we see it again from the sniper scope so it can be assumed it was pretty far away. And some dogs may be fast, but they're not flash so it definitely took the dog a little bit to get that far away, giving ward enough time to get the sniper, and(using his specialist skills) find the dog to mortally wound it from a distance.

He killed the dog just like he killed fitzsimmons ( although I do agree with that they could survive) in a way that ensures that they will be far away and he won't have to watch them die.

They also made a point of showing ward shooting the elk and showing the scope for a reason, so we're not confused as to who shot the dog and thinking"where did the sniper come from?"

Wow this has to be my second longest post ever, on any site

Great points degride!

 

[kosh33]

Skye? No, she doesn't have to die. However, they started the season with her as a really weak character...and after a full season she is still a really weak character. And lets face it...odds are that her stupid decision will end up not coming back to haunt her. That is why I had such a problem with the SHIELD agents bumbling around like keystone cops in the most recent episode. At what point are they going to start taking this seriously?

Skye is and was never a weak character in my opinion.. there were doubts to her role and what she brings to the team in the beginning, and that is no longer an issue with the way her character has grown over the series

Not every person who works in SHIELD is a field agent.. some of them are scientists, and so it is expected and known that they are not cleared for combat.. but that doesnt mean that they dont want to be part of the action, especially since their world and whatever they believed in has crumbled around them.

 

[Dark Raven]

End of story? Not really
Few points of response
1. It's a pretty wild assumption that flashbacks are usually told 3rd person
A lot of flashbacks are in fact told through first person whenever they are a personal story, I'm assuming from the fact that only ward is ever seen alone in a flashback scene( him under the tree in the rain, him hesitating but ultimately shooting buddy with the rifle since he got too far away) that the flashbacks are being told from his point of view, that these flashbacks are about what's happening to him.

And no, personal flashback scenes do not require VO.

2. What these flashbacks showed was that ward considers having an emotional connection with anything or anyone a weakness( thanks to garret) it's been shown and stated throughout the whole season that ward pushes his emotions away so he can do his job properly, because again he sees that emotion as a weakness

So here's Fitz and Simmons who locked themselves in a heavy sealed container( because ward didn't just break through the glass and shoot them I'm assuming that the glass is bullet proof. Fitz tells him "I know you still care about us ward!"
I says he know and it's a weakness, so he ejects the container into the middle of the fricken ocean, and since the episodes poster shows fitzsimmons in the container underwater it's safe to assume that the container did in fact sink.

He was close to them so he killed them in a way that he wouldn't have to watch them die, just like the dog( who he shot from a sniper scope from far away)

3. The sniper scope. We see earlier, ward shooting shooting an elk from a long distance away( I don't remember the exact distance but it was a large distance) we see from his point of view the sniper scope. When he aims away and fires the gun the dog runs off. When we see it again from the sniper scope so it can be assumed it was pretty far away. And some dogs may be fast, but they're not flash so it definitely took the dog a little bit to get that far away, giving ward enough time to get the sniper, and(using his specialist skills) find the dog to mortally wound it from a distance.

He killed the dog just like he killed fitzsimmons ( although I do agree with that they could survive) in a way that ensures that they will be far away and he won't have to watch them die.

They also made a point of showing ward shooting the elk and showing the scope for a reason, so we're not confused as to who shot the dog and thinking"where did the sniper come from?"

Wow this has to be my second longest post ever, on any site

Every single flashback we've ever seen in any film or TV has always had voiceover without exception.

 

[mujie]

@Dark Raven: Watch Once Upon a Time then. Wait... You weren't serious, were you?

About Ward now... FitzSimmons were able to open the door from their side, right? They aren't able to do so now? Sorry, I know very little about airtight containers... Anyway, I believe Ward gave them their best chance. If he hadn't done what he did, there's no doubt that they both would have died. Garrett woke up. He would've killed them himself. And probably Ward with them. Plus, they run the ship, surely they could've found a way to get through? Honestly, whether subconsciously or consciously, I think Ward was trying to protect them.

I also think Reyna might have poisoned Garrett or something. I mean, she didn't seem to impressed with him before she gave him the serum. It can't be the exact same one as Coulson and Skye were given, can it?

 

[AquamanOS]

At what point are they going to start taking this seriously?

Nothing has happened yet that warrants them jumping into super serious, no laughter no jokes no prisoners mode yet.

Garrett's not about to nuke a city, or have helicarriers kill millions of people. He's planning on getting rich off Centepede's research by selling it. A bad thing but hardly worth going all stoic terminator mode.

I mean the Avengers were cracking jokes when an alien death army was dropping into the middle of New York. That's just how Marvel characters are.

 

[Ant-manic]

There were reports when Pena was first mentioned that he would play the villain in both the past and present.

for clarification, i wasn't suggesting that they are the same person. i was suggesting that Alejandro Castillo might be a relative of Michael Pena's Castillo. Alejandra was a Columbian drug lord. maybe he has business and familial ties to Pena's political figure-Castillo. it's easy to imagine the character also having Hydra ties. and Pym would, logically, have run afoul of the organization.

 

[Dr. Evil]

for clarification, i wasn't suggesting that they are the same person. i was suggesting that Alejandro Castillo might be a relative of Michael Pena's Castillo. Alejandra was a Columbian drug lord. maybe he has business and familial ties to Pena's political figure-Castillo. it's easy to imagine the character also having Hydra ties. and Pym would, logically, have run afoul of the organization.

If he (Pena) is a Castro like figure, then he probably has a brother, like Castro does in real life.

 

[Ant-manic]

If he (Pena) is a Castro like figure, then he probably has a brother, like Castro does in real life.

i'd love it if they were connected. i can just imagine Pena's character getting the news in the Ant-man movie and kvetching about Hydra. i wonder why Garrett chose the dude as a target. was it promotional for his branch of Hydra?

 

[Dr. Evil]

I'm thinking Marvel won't make Pena official (or any of the rest of the cast of Ant Man official) until after the season ends.

 

[Ant-manic]

@Dark Raven: Watch Once Upon a Time then. Wait... You weren't serious, were you?

About Ward now... FitzSimmons were able to open the door from their side, right? They aren't able to do so now? Sorry, I know very little about airtight containers... Anyway, I believe Ward gave them their best chance. If he hadn't done what he did, there's no doubt that they both would have died. Garrett woke up. He would've killed them himself. And probably Ward with them. Plus, they run the ship, surely they could've found a way to get through? Honestly, whether subconsciously or consciously, I think Ward was trying to protect them.

I also think Reyna might have poisoned Garrett or something. I mean, she didn't seem to impressed with him before she gave him the serum. It can't be the exact same one as Coulson and Skye were given, can it?

i have a hard time believing that Raina would miss out on an opportunity to double-cross Garrett. she seems too..."principled" to aid someone like him.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Are you kidding? That's the most James Bond-like "try to kill them in the most unnecessarily complex/overly long way possible so that they have plenty of time to find a way to escape" trap imaginable. "Pretty final" would have been for Ward to pull out a gun and shoot both of them in the head like he did with Hand and dozens of other SHIELD agents.

I don't think he could have killed them because I think the glass is bulletproof. That being said, whether he intended to kill them when he did that depends on whether he knew they were close to sea level and other factors like that.

So... at the beginning of the episode, Deathlok takes out one "Alejandro Castillo" in Bogata. Any possible relation to the upcoming Ant-Man villain played by Michael Pena?

That was my thought. I'd have to wait for Ant-Man, but I do think we had a subtle early reference to him. Or it could be a complete coincidence, who knows?

Anyway, on the Buddy debate: My take is that Ward couldn't kill his dog up close and personal, but he could depersonalize it by shooting him from a distance. I do think it was Ward that did it since it fits the narrative better and Ward is shown to be a great sniper. But this might have to be something we agree was ambiguous.

 

[Vartha]

Good ep last night. A couple thoughts:

-I've been waiting for the Berserker Staff to get some love! (sounds dirty...).

-And I loved that they expanded on Trip's howling commando heritage. Coulson geeking out over it was great, too.

-I'm glad they developed Garrett's backstory just as much as Ward's. I think Paxton was a really strong force in strengthening the second half of this season.

-My two cents on Buddy's fate: I really think Garrett shot him. Ward fired the gun in the air "because that dog runs off every time I fire a shot," or whatever Ward said when he was hunting the deer. Garrett was watching from afar to see what he did/finish the job.

-Were there any easter eggs in the Cybertek file room? I didn't see what label was on the file cabinet that Coulson was looking at before May called him over.

I was plotzing over/about both the Berserker Staff and the Howling Commando stuff too lol

 

[Heretic]

Nothing has happened yet that warrants them jumping into super serious, no laughter no jokes no prisoners mode yet.

Garrett's not about to nuke a city, or have helicarriers kill millions of people. He's planning on getting rich off Centepede's research by selling it. A bad thing but hardly worth going all stoic terminator mode.

I mean the Avengers were cracking jokes when an alien death army was dropping into the middle of New York. That's just how Marvel characters are.

Nothing has happened that warrants them being serious and not being reckless with weapons???

Maybe you and the characters dont consider it a big deal...but the collapse of SHIELD by Hydra, the fact that they are all wanted by the law...the fact that an Asgardian weapon and other weapons of mass destruction, in addition to super villains have been loosed upon the world...the fact that their friends have been killed by other friends who betrayed them...the fact that they just gave away vital info that could lead to Hydra taking over the world...I dont know man...I consider that stuff reason to get serious.

 

[Heretic]

i have a hard time believing that Raina would miss out on an opportunity to double-cross Garrett. she seems too..."principled" to aid someone like him.

But yet she used the serum on him to save his life...
It's bizarre...she's done a lot of terrible things trying to get that info. For whatever reason, they don't have access to any more samples...and she just gave up her dream by injecting it into a guy who deceived her...and she will likely turn on him soon anyway. The motivations of these characters often conflict with their actions.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I think she's fascinated by things that are strange or paranormal. This was just an example of that.

Even though she has qualms with Garrett, he is also her boss. Testing to see if it works is one example of that.

 

[Mattallica]

I posted this therory back in January in the "who is the clairvoyant" thread
this could still be true and be the lead in for the return of Red skull and Winter soldier
in Cap 3


"Centipede=Roxxon=the Brand corp.

the Clairvoyant= Alexsander lukin(roxxon owner)=Red Skull (consciousness trapped in Lukin )

Skull wants to know how Coulson was brought back to life so he can Bring himself Back. "

See-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxxon_Energy_Corporation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand_Corporation