BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

[Unbreakable Lex]

Lex....so your reading of the knightmare/flash thing is that it stops the fight? Thus preventing Lois from dying and Supes going evil?

Interesting....what about the "too soon, too soon" aspect of the warning?

No, i believe Lois died and that pushed Superman over the edge. That point didnt make sense to Bruce until Lois showed up to stop him from killing Superman. Not only does Superman have a mother, but also a human that cares deeply for him. Lois showed Bruce the humanity in Superman.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Yup, not knowing a detail about a fictional character's mythos is akin to not knowing anything about the deadliest conflict in human history. Spot on

I love that we're now comparing a movie that won 6 oscars to fast food.

The reaching. It's so real. It's so bad.

 

[C. Lee]

Do you hear that sound slowly getting louder outside your window....it reminds you of thunder far off in the distance....but the storm is getting closer....so the sound of thunder is getting louder.....louder....and then you realize...it isn't thunder....it is the sound of people face palming themselves as they read this thread.....

 

[Wylie Times]

Just checked and yeah, The Flash dream sequence had nothing to do with the the plot of this film:

“This was kind of the opposite [of Breaking Bad] because we had the script and it wasn’t in the script. As we started then we worked on our script, I think we were in the middle of shooting and we started working on the outline for the next movie and where they go, and Zack said, ‘Oh my God let’s add this moment that is gonna pay off down the road, and we’ll find out more information.’”

Source

 

[Aquafinn90]

Just checked and yeah, The Flash dream sequence had nothing to do with the the plot of this film:



Source

Yeah

At least the complaints about this sequence I can completely understand. I myself loved the sequence as the tease for future movies, but this is a totally valid complaint people of the movie.

 

[FunkMiller]

Just checked and yeah, The Flash dream sequence had nothing to do with the the plot of this film:



Source

Oh for crying out loud. Well, that's just about says it all.

'Let's throw something in for no reason to do with the plot to this movie, because it might pay off in an unwritten story sometime in the future.'

This movie. This goddamn movie.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Oh for crying out loud. Well, that's just about says it all.

'Let's throw something in for no reason to do with the plot to this movie, because it might pay off in an unwritten story sometime in the future.'

This movie. This goddamn movie.

Well I'm sorry that you and so many other fans are very unhappy with this film. I imagine its quite frustrating after 3 years of hype.
As much as I despise the Marvel movies, I do like that we have two major comic book franchises that are different in just about every way. It wouldn't be much fun if they were the same.

 

[Deserana]

Just checked and yeah, The Flash dream sequence had nothing to do with the the plot of this film:



Source

But everyone knew it would have scenes like this. This is what people literally asked for! They *****ed and moaned that Marvel was weak when it came to connecting films then DC does this which will directly feed into future movies but nope it's too much the other way.

The Alfred thing is also ridiculous. He calls him "sir" and is clearly his aid of some sort, he's always there with him and helps him. It's clear there is an established relationship but people wanted the movie to take the time for an inevitable forced bit of dialogue that explains their past. I've never ever seen fans play the ignorant card so many times. This film has clear issues but some border to the ****ing stupid.

 

[Wylie Times]

Yeah

At least the complaints about this sequence I can completely understand. I myself loved the sequence as the tease for future movies, but this is a totally valid complaint people of the movie.

That and the laptop scene would have been great post credits scenes, like all time great post credits scenes. Within the flow of the actual film they just don't work though.

 

[Aquafinn90]

That and the laptop scene would have been great post credits scenes, like all time great post credits scenes. Within the flow of the actual film they just don't work though.

hmmm I can get on board with that. Well, I disagree on the laptop scene a bit. I did think that they fit into the plot organically in that obviously Lex has his whole meta-human tracking going on, but the way they were presented was a bit odd, especially the way Aquaman kinda just stared into the camera for a good bit. Again I totally loved it, but can get on board with people thinking it was out of place.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

It absolutely is not key to ending the fight with Superman.

You and a bunch of other posters have been saying for weeks that the whole set up for the "Martha" thing was "brilliant" simply because Snyder kept hammering the audience over the head with the name leading up to that point. Now all of a sudden the "Knightmare" scene is also an integral part of the movie?

And didn't one of the producers say that stuff was added after the script was done because they wanted to throw in some fun teases for the justice league movie?

It's multilayered. Who tells Batman Superman has a mother and what his mother's name is? The same person that Bruce was told is the key. So you now have two relations to Superman that identify his humanity. One is that Superman has a mother, a mother that shares the same name as Batman's own mother. That hits him hard. Also, the fact that the 'key' is who shows up to help Superman acts to further drill down the point that Superman has humans that care deeply for him and that he cares deeply for. It made Bruce snap out of his rage and understand that this guy can't be all bad if he cares so much about humans and those same humans care about him the same. Bruce realized in that moment that Superman was a man and was loved as such.

 

[Wylie Times]

But everyone knew it would have scenes like this. This is what people literally asked for!They *****ed and moaned that Marvel was weak when it came to connecting films then DC does this which will directly feed into future movies but nope it's too much the other way.

The problem with the scene isn't that it exists, the problem is in where they were placed and the fact that they take up time and don't add anything to the overall plot.

It's the exact same problem people had with scenes in Iron Man 2 and Age of Ultron.

The easter eggs that people like tend to be objects in the background, brief name drops, or off hand comments. They're things that some members of the audience notice but they don't take you away from the main plot.

The scenes in Batman V SUperman run about 1 or 2 minutes a piece and add NOTHING to the story being told. They could be cut completely and it'd actually make the film a bit better (despite how well done they were).

 

[Aquafinn90]

It's multilayered. Who tells Batman Superman has a mother and what his mother's name is? The same person that Bruce was told is the key. So you now have two relations to Superman that identify his humanity. One is that Superman has a mother, a mother that shares the same name as Batman's own mother. That hits him hard. Also, the fact that the 'key' is who shows up to help Superman acts to further drill down the point that Superman has humans that care deeply for him and that he cares deeply for. It made Bruce snap out of his rage and understand that this guy can't be all bad if he cares so much about humans and those same humans care about him the same. Bruce realized in that moment that Superman was a man and was loved as such.

While I agree with nearly all of your other thoughts on the movie so far, I don't agree with this. I don't think the Nightmare sequence had any payoff whatsoever in the movie, nor do I think it was supposed to.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

That and the laptop scene would have been great post credits scenes, like all time great post credits scenes. Within the flow of the actual film they just don't work though.

I think you're just used to film progression being taken out of the plot and tacked on to an after credit scene.

Had we not known what WW sees in those files, her talk with Bruce at the end wouldn't have any meaning. She was able to find the dirt Luthor had on her and others. Bruce was able to realize that others are out there and combined with the vision, knew he needed to go find them.

 

[souperman]

To the overwhelming majority of the audience, apparently.

FR cost 150m-grossed 378m
BvS cost 250+m-grossed (will gross) 800m-1b

more people bought tickets to BvS than FR.
BvS made more profit than FR.
but FR is the success?

(production costs-not marketing)

And FR is not raking in toy and merchandising money.

just be fair guys...

 

[Aquafinn90]

FR cost 150m-grossed 378m
BvS cost 250+m-grossed (will gross) 800m-1b

more people bought tickets to BvS than FR.
BvS made more profit than FR.
but FR is the success?

(production costs-not marketing)

And FR is not raking in toy and merchandising money.

just be fair guys...

Yeah people need to realize this. Obviously BVS isn't doing quite as well as WB wanted- it should have been clear it was going to hit 1Billion. But at the same time, it still making a ton of money- weather or not it makes the money they wanted it to is a different story completely

but what is FR?

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

While I agree with nearly all of your other thoughts on the movie so far, I don't agree with this. I don't think the Nightmare sequence had any payoff whatsoever in the movie, nor do I think it was supposed to.

The payoff of the knightmare sequence was to show Bruce a possible future. One that had an evil Superman and Earth terraformed into new Apokolips. The fact that he was told that Lois is the key is the payoff during the fight. He knows Lois is important and then seeing her save Superman put it all together. Up to that point, the knightmare sequence underscored to him that he was right in taking on Superman. When Lois stops him and tells him Superman is talking about his mother, he has the eureka moment. Had that scene taken place after the movie or not at all, we wouldn't understand what Lex was talking about at the end, we wouldn't understand what Diana and Bruce were talking about at the end and we wouldn't know that Bruce knows that Lois is the key. We all now know that Superman loves Lois and if he loses her, his path may be similar to one Harvey Dent.

 

[souperman]

fury road

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

was awesome

 

[Aquafinn90]

The payoff of the knightmare sequence was to show Bruce a possible future. One that had an evil Superman and Earth terraformed into new Apokolips. The fact that he was told that Lois is the key is the payoff during the fight. He knows Lois is important and then seeing her save Superman put it all together. Up to that point, the knightmare sequence underscored to him that he was right in taking on Superman. When Lois stops him and tells him Superman is talking about his mother, he has the eureka moment. Had that scene taken place after the movie or not at all, we wouldn't understand what Lex was talking about at the end, we wouldn't understand what Diana and Bruce were talking about at the end and we wouldn't know that Bruce knows that Lois is the key. We all now know that Superman loves Lois and if he loses her, his path may be similar to one Harvey Dent.

Spoiler

Yes but Flash also tells Bruce "Lois is the key! you need to save Louis"- I would agree with you if he didn't say he needed to save Louis, but he did. And there was never a point in the movie where he saved Louis

 

[souperman]

And don't get me wrong...

FR was entertaining...if a bit loud, but hardly groundbreaking and fresh or DEEP.

In the end, it was the same as the first one... a motor head apocalyptic desert chase movie.

And I like the first ones too.

 

[Aquafinn90]

fury road

oh yeah, duh. Thanks

What were your thoughts on BVS? Obviously you seem to be defending it

 

[Aquafinn90]

And don't get me wrong...

FR was entertaining...if a bit loud, but hardly groundbreaking and fresh or DEEP.

In the end, it was the same as the first one... a motor head apocalyptic desert chase movie.

And I like the first ones too.

Oh I loved FR. Floored that it got a Best Pic nom though. Like it was visually amazing, and I totally love it, but yeah, nothing spectacular story wise

 

[Wylie Times]

I think you're just used to film progression being taken out of the plot and tacked on to an after credit scene.

Had we not known what WW sees in those files, her talk with Bruce at the end wouldn't have any meaning. She was able to find the dirt Luthor had on her and others. Bruce was able to realize that others are out there and combined with the vision, knew he needed to go find them.

Which isn't integral to the plot of this film. That's set up for the upcoming Justice league film.

Diana finding out what dirt Luthor had on her also had nothing to do with the plot of THIS film, it was just set up for the Wonder woman and justice league films.

There are ways to set up later films in a series that don't require scenes that don't serve the plot at all.

If something doesn't serve the plot it should be relegated to the background, an off hand mention, or a post credits scene.

Just dumping something in the middle of the movie with little to not context or impact on the overall film is just bad film making.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Spoiler

Yes but Flash also tells Bruce "Lois is the key! you need to save Louis"- I would agree with you if he didn't say he needed to save Louis, but he did. And there was never a point in the movie where he saved Louis

Spoiler

Yes, you are right. The Flash's message was geared toward an event that has not yet happened. What the Flash message did do was define Lois as very important to Superman. When it's Lois that shows up to help Superman and explain to Batman what's going on, he snaps out of it. It's two fold. Superman has people he cares deeply for. He has family. He has lovers. He's a man.

Batman knows that both Martha and Lois are important to Superman now. Superman has a mother. Superman has a girlfriend. These are clues the world's greatest detective uses to conclude that maybe Superman isn't all bad. Besides, he had Supes on the rope, if he does mess up, Batman now has the means to stop him.