All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - Part 307

Discussion in 'Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice' started by Thread Manager, Mar 4, 2017.

  1. Da-Scribe he/him

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    10,596
    Likes Received:
    5,105
    Right. As would anyone talking to the love of their life right before dying. It doesn’t literally mean he doesn’t care about anyone else. He wouldn’t have saved all those people, including Lex, throughout MoS and BvS if it was just the Lois Show.
     
    AVEITWITHJAMON and Vaibow like this.
  2. TheVileOne Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    61,377
    Likes Received:
    5,519
    Once again, cheap and pedestrian. We've only spent one, count 'em, one movie with this Superman at this point. And up to this point, we haven't even really gotten to know or really even like this Superman yet. You can't just throw out Doomsday/Death of Superman plus intro Lex Luthor, plus Batman/Bruce Wayne and Alfred, PLUS PLUS Wonder Woman/Diana, PLUS PLUS PLUS metahumans and feature Justice Leaguers, PLUS PLUS PLUS PLUS a Batman vs. Superman/Dark Knight Returns esque style story all in one movie. It was too much.

    So they rush a third act with the Trinity vs. Doomsday and Superman dying, when we already know he has to be brought back to reform Justice League. Functionally, narratively, it doesn't work. Look at the results.

    It was a waste. You could've built to a story like this and made it a big turning point watershed moment. A complete and total and utter nonsensical waste.
     
  3. Vaibow Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,486
    Likes Received:
    758
    I still say we have MOS2 (Metallo), MOS3 (Brainiac and super girl) then MOS 4 which let's say 2028 god knows I am reaching here, but anyways.

    WW3, AM2, AM3, S! 2 and 3. Let's hope we get a flash and cyborg movie, possibly green lanterns movie.

    Then, I want a proper death and return Story line. Here me out.
    The post credits scene of MOS2 is
    Screen Shot 2020-06-12 at 8.10.37 PM.png

    Then WW3 post credits scene I want

    Screen Shot 2020-06-12 at 8.10.46 PM.png

    Then for AM 3 I want

    Screen Shot 2020-06-12 at 8.11.17 PM.png

    Then I want a movie that is pretty much a team up movie - I want the first 1/3 to focus on clark, life is calm, we see cool rescues - then we see the justice leaguers have to deal with this beast - we see some cool characters that have been introduced via other movies etc and we see Doomsday wipe the floor clean with GL, Shazam! Flash, cyborg etc

    What makes the stakes so high, is they recognize what has happened before and he is another one of those, but seems smarter, this isn't a hybrid, an out cast, this was a hybrid specifically engineered to be a killing machine.

    This time it means more, when superman goes in. We get some fantastic scenes as the helicopter news team film a fight in broad day light - world holding their breath knowing they can't see Superman fail.

    Unfortunately, two killer blows are exchanged and the gladiators are on the floor.

    This time, I wouldn't do the story line of the funeral for a friend, I would have it that Cadmus have his body, and are doing their best to figure out how to revive him - sure have a world in suspense and sad - but then boom, a week later superman is in the city, people cheering.

    Whilst General Swanick and co are bemused as Clark is lying there motionless. The sequel we have Sueprboy, Eradicator, Steel and then very quickly, Clark wakes up. In time for one last show down with....
     
  4. Da-Scribe he/him

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    10,596
    Likes Received:
    5,105
    Eh I ain’t taking the time to argue all this. My point was simply about the Lois thing. You veering off track homie.
     
  5. TheVileOne Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    61,377
    Likes Received:
    5,519
    When he's fighting Doomsday in the comics, some of his last thoughts are this: "I have do do this for Lois, for Jimmy, for everyone in the city."

    Lois was first and foremost in his mind, but he wasn't just thinking about her safety. He wanted to protect Jimmy and the civilians as well.
     
  6. TheVileOne Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    61,377
    Likes Received:
    5,519
    You really can't do it anymore. Batman v Superman effectively murdered Doomsday worse than Game of Thrones Season 8 did the White Walkers.
     
    Tymminator likes this.
  7. Da-Scribe he/him

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    10,596
    Likes Received:
    5,105
    I feel like that was clear when he said “This is my world.” prior to telling Lois that she was his world.
     
    AVEITWITHJAMON and SuperRouth like this.
  8. Vaibow Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,486
    Likes Received:
    758
    Nah, I reckon they can reuse a villain of sorts... it's how they market it.. don't market it as the death and return.. market it as a team up movie against a villain more powerful than before... it kicks everyones ass...but luckily superman does the final blow... superman is critical... but not dead... in a coma... whilst private sectors clone him left right and centre and new heroes emerge.
     
    craigaat likes this.
  9. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    38,148
    Likes Received:
    2,295
    As Da-Scribe said, he doesn’t just care about Lois, he is comforting someone he loves before sacrificing himself. It goes back to the conversation he had with his Dad on the mountain top. Lois is the anchor that helps Superman deal with the guilt of his failures. Just like Martha was for Jonathan, who also says “she was my world.” If Superman only cared about Lois, he wouldn’t have let Batman save his mother after nearly being killed by him, or saved Lex from Doomsday, or took a nuke to the face trying to stop Doomsday, or shoved a Kryptonite Spear in his chest. Earth was his world, Lois was his anchor to that world and the reason he fought and died for it.

    I don’t find that shameful or cheap personally.
     
    Aurakles, craigaat and Da-Scribe like this.
  10. flickchick85 Admin of Might

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Messages:
    43,950
    Likes Received:
    19,090
    Too bad the movie didn't show him having any meaningful interactions with the world outside of Lois. The world he's lived in for 33 years. Friends? Neighbors? Guy he could chat with at a hot dog stand? Nah, he's an isolated alien who apparently never took the time to get to know anybody except his parents and the reporter who figured out his secret. We never even got to see him say anything to anyone he saved. Instead he just stood there looking pensive while they worshipped or projected on him because hey, cool visuals!

    Because he was a plot device - a delivery system for symbolism and a thematic conflict - not a character in his own right. Telling us he cares about the world achieves nothing when you don't bother showing him interacting with it and giving us no reason to believe it. Certainly doesn't make me care that he was killed, being taken out of world that was shown to be nothing but a burden anyway. You want to make us care? Show us Superman finding things to love about humanity even in their darker moments, and at least appreciating something about this world besides Lois. It's not a big ask.
     
  11. TheVileOne Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    61,377
    Likes Received:
    5,519
    The movie didn't do a good job of showing it after reinforcing two and a half hours of a mopey, aloof Superman.
     
  12. TheVileOne Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    61,377
    Likes Received:
    5,519

    The cheapness is throwing away the Death of Superman in the second movie right before a Justice League movie the following year that's already set to include Superman. They are killing off Superman and expecting us to be sad and devastated about this development when audiences haven't even really gotten to know or even love this Superman. Case in point, audiences rejected this movie and didn't buy into it. People weren't sad and heartbroken about Superman dying. There are no stakes to Superman dying right now. It's a cheap and pedestrian and ultimately meaningless plot device.
     
  13. TheVileOne Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    61,377
    Likes Received:
    5,519
    Maybe in 10 years if this DC live action franchise is totally rebooted.
     
  14. Vaibow Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,486
    Likes Received:
    758
    Spot on, I mean sure, he can a nomad, a wanderer... but those small moments, on a fishing trawler, behind a bar... those are the most human elements to the character that could have built him up... we see why he moves, we see that he cares... we see that he is likeable... we feel for him that he doesn't ever settle.

    I mean, right now, we have protestors... imagine a scene where he addresses the crowd... swears to them that he will be their voice, their strength... that he will watch the law and hold them accountable - imagine the work Clark with the DP can do, the narrative.

    Imagine a suicidal teen, on a roof top... superman just appearing there... he feels her pain... they talk... she feels his pain.. they relate... she understands and keeps going.

    Imagine a scene where civil war is breaking out, migrants fleeing, in the dirt... down and out... suddenly a man stands up for them.. everyone in the audience will be able to relate.

    Get superman being the champion of the people.... he is a super man, but a man no less... he's one of us, but with the ability to speak when we can't.

    It's shameful how WB are stalling on Superman.
     
    flickchick85 likes this.
  15. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    38,148
    Likes Received:
    2,295
    I do agree BvS could have shown more of Superman interacting with humanity. MOS showed it, and the UC does show it a bit with Superman feeling Batman is terrorising Gotham and wanting to stop him doing it. Also his devastation at the Capitol bombing.

    But unfortunately the movie had a lot to juggle as is. We really should have got MOS2 before BvS.
     
  16. MaceB Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,665
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    I mean look.... feelings of alienation and isolation, but helping regardless IS the Superman story. Superman’s story is the story of the immigrant.... always working to be a part of his new home even though he never really can. His inability to connect with people is honestly a central part of his personality.

    It’s not particularly fun to watch though... I’ll give you that.
     
    AVEITWITHJAMON likes this.
  17. flickchick85 Admin of Might

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Messages:
    43,950
    Likes Received:
    19,090
    Funny, I read “the Superman story” all the time, and I see him connecting with people regularly in the comics. Being an alien just makes his drive for human connection all the more powerful. He’s a perpetually friendly guy in the stories I read, not a misanthrope who barely speaks 10 words to anyone and acts like he’s been dealt a rough lot in life. He acknowledges the responsibility that his powers demand of him, and misses the lost world and sense of normality he never knew, but he’s damned lucky in the grand scheme - to have survived Krypton, to have been found and raised by the Kents, to have found a calling he loves, etc. - and he knows it. He’s one of the more well-adjusted superheroes, all things considered, and is not one to waste much time brooding about the hand he’s been dealt.

    He’s an alien whose outsider perspective has given him more love, appreciation, and faith in humanity than humanity have in themselves. That’s the Superman story, imo. And when portrayed as such, it IS a particularly fun one to watch/read, which is why I’ve been doing so longer than I’ve done with any other fictional character or universe.
     
    Vaibow and SgtRob like this.
  18. MaceB Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,665
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    because the comics are cartoons. They have the ability to break the rules and have it all. But when you break it down, Superman’s story is the immigrant story. And if you want to have a consistent, internal struggle with the character, then painting him as detached, alienated, and needy for approval are the quintessential Superman weaknesses. Outside of kryptonite, they are Superman’s true weaknesses., it’s not Snyder’s fault that everyone fell in love with a cartoon character with no discernible human qualities besides a smile. Why does Superman even do good? We don’t really know, because most want to portray him as a one dimensional character with no real character flaws. That’s not good storytelling. That’s not doing Clark justice. There’s no room to grow from there. And IMO, it’s why Superman is a poison pill character that is particularly hard to showcase in live action.

    Let him be flawed. Let him have real emotions.
     
    #1143 MaceB, Jun 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
    AVEITWITHJAMON likes this.
  19. flickchick85 Admin of Might

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Messages:
    43,950
    Likes Received:
    19,090
    Nonsense. There are plenty of ways for him to have flaws and emotions without robbing him of his personality. He’s already got that stuff in the comics, despite your claims, which suggest to me you haven’t spent much time getting to know the character in the comics. He has doubts and moments of weakness and insecurities just like any other character. Making him a moody outcast is in fact NOT the only way to do it, it’s the way Snyder CHOSE to do it. It’s fine to like Snyder’s version or prefer it over the comics, but let’s not pretend for a second that it is the only way the character could be or that it’s somehow “realistic.” No one in Snyder’s films behaves like a real person to me, because Snyder has no sense of naturalism at all. Everyone in his stylized worlds feels like a cartoon, from their dialogue and behavior, to their wardrobe and production design. Which is fine, it’s his style, but I’m sick of fans trying to tell me his version has some sort of realism edge over previous versions. It doesn’t. Cynicism isn’t the same as realism. And when it comes down to it, that character I read in those “cartoons” is more fleshed out and feels like more of an actual person to me than Snyder’s flat dullard of a cipher ever did.

    Snyder was more interested in what he could say with Superman than in the character of Superman himself. To me, Snyder’s view of Superman feels like that of someone who never appreciated the character’s innate appeal in the first place, and so made a version he thought would be more “cool.” Someone like yourself who clearly looks down on the comics version and missed the depth and values within.
     
    Vaibow and SgtRob like this.
  20. MaceB Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,665
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    And what personality would that be exactly? The down home country boy who puts his life on the line and is ever so cheery because.... he's just a good person? Well swell.

    I'm just telling you how it is. Superman has only a few weaknesses to speak of: kryptonite, a red sun, and his feelings of alienation from the world that he considers home.

    It's similar to a lot of adopted children, who love their family and their friends and their home, but struggle all their lives with feeling separate from them. Just like trauma is ultimately Batman's weakness... Superman's feelings of otherness are his. Pardon some of us for wanting to actually investigate the character instead of always going at this surface, cartoon level, which doesn't seem to ask why Clark acts like a bumbling idiot at the Planet... or why he's at the Planet at all. Is he a good reporter? What does he report on? What's his philosophy on journalism? Why does he need to be a reporter at all? Doesn't that just put people at risk? From top to bottom, Superman is the victim of this one dimensional approach writers have given him. He's a boy scout, and he does good, because he's a good farm boy, and that's just the way he was raised. There's no internal conflict there, and so no real growth allowed.

    We all have central struggles throughout our lives. Some of us can't reconcile with our parents, some of us are a product of abuse, some of us are immigrants, some of us grew up on the streets, blah, blah, blah. For Clark, his primary struggle is that he wants to be human... he wants to be a part of the Earth... but no matter how much good he does, he'll never be able to. He can't earn his way into humanity unfortunately... but like many in his circumstances... he never stops trying. Seeking the love and acceptance he can never fully have is a part of his character.

    Does that sound less heroic than we are used to? Yes it does. But in the real world, we have to give people struggles to overcome, in order to earn the title of hero. And if you deny Superman's ability to confront the demons that are actually inherent in his character, then you neuter him, and stop him from being complex and interesting.

    I'm not saying Snyder's version was the best way to go. I think you're right. It was too dour and too rushed for my liking. But I appreciate how uniquely difficult it is to portray Superman sight now - someone who is impossibly strong, without any real insecurities. So... he's strong physically, and he's strong emotionally.... mentally too. His personality? Um.... a rule keeper, a lover of people, happy and enthusiastic. He's got loving parents, a woman who adores him, an amazing job that he got..somehow, and in most cases he is portrayed as a hero loved by the world. Where's the drama there? It all comes from the circumstances, right? Metallo gets created, or Doomsday gets made.

    And that's fun for a cartoon. Snyder was trying to actually give Superman depth. And you're right... I literally don't know how one does that, without making Superman appear isolated, alienated, and alone. I appreciated the effort. IMO, what Snyder did was the first step of what needs to happen with the character. We need to sit and rethink a little bit with Superman... at least when he's in live action.
     
  21. flickchick85 Admin of Might

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Messages:
    43,950
    Likes Received:
    19,090
    Sorry, I just don’t buy that. I don't need you to "tell me how it is," as if you somehow know that better than I do. There’s no need to “rethink" the character, as all those feelings of alienation and insecurities are already there on the comics page. They just don’t turn him into a misanthrope. That he manages to remain mostly positive, optimistic and enjoy his life is not a failing or a lack of depth. It is an aspirational quality that many people in the real world have and that regular people inspire him in the comics with all the time. Superman gets down, and he finds something or someone to pick him up.

    What is is personality? He’s a big dork who longs to fit in, and makes every effort to do so. He was raised by friendly farmers in a small town and that’s the disposition he was raised with - the friendly small town farm boy sensibility. He loves baseball, cheesy pretzels, hot dogs and other junk food, has a penchant for “dad humor,” and when no ones looking, he uses his powers to amuse himself, like taking a spontaneous sight-seeing flight to exotic locales or playing baseball with himself, cause again, big dork. He’s a reporter because it perfectly suits his desire to explore humanity and the human condition - he makes connections through some of his stories that become trusted friends and allies, and he also has an innate sense of truth and justice which being a reporter helps him to fulfill. He takes time to get to know his neighbors and is always eager to help them out whether they need sugar or repairs, and as a result, they’ve got his back when he needs them. That's essentially what being Superman is to him: being a good neighbor, on a global/galactic scale. He sees he can help, so therefore he should. He sees injustice in action, he gets angry and does whatever he can to fix it, because he can do more than other people. He has insecurities too, of course. About his choice to become a public figure as Superman getting those he cares about hurt, or lives ruined. He struggles with the basic things we all do - paying the rent, keeping a job, getting the girl he likes to like him back, eventually being a good parent, etc. He longs to connect to his lost home world, especially in those moments that make him feel particularly like an alien here on Earth. As Superman, he’s often not sure if he’s making the right call as he tends to struggle with the shades of gray he rarely had to deal with on the farm in Smallville. He grew up with a solid view of good and bad, and even verges on hypocrisy every now and then when attempting to hold others to that standard. He’s always worried about his own power going unchecked, as he remains acutely aware of how much damage he could do if he ever lost perspective. But he doesn’t let those worries define him and how he interacts with the world. He chooses to see the positive because he believes himself to be very lucky. Even if he’s had an absolute crap Monday at the Daily Planet and gets kicked off a story, if he manages to save one life that day as Superman, he comes home thinking it was a damn good day. His first instinct when encountering a new enemy is to communicate and try to understand them first, rather than to fight. That comes from his nature of being an often misunderstood alien himself. He wishes he could give others his powers so they could see and hear the world as he does, and appreciate the beauty in it, and those little moments of kindness and love that most people don’t notice or simply take for granted.

    You can tell me that’s not a well-rounded character all you want, but I’ll never agree.
     
    Vaibow and Erzengel like this.
  22. MaceB Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,665
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    How many people risk their lives every day and the lives of those they love, just because they are naturally happy, positive people raised with good values on a farm? Seems pretty thin to me.

    Superman isn't a guy next door. He's not just some dude who is nice to his mom. He's a hero. He puts his life on the line. There has to be a compelling reason as to why he does that. Saying that he does it, because was just raised nice is exactly the problem, IMO.
     
  23. flickchick85 Admin of Might

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Messages:
    43,950
    Likes Received:
    19,090
    Could not disagree more - a lot of heroes in the real world are that way because they were raised right. But this is going nowhere, so to each their own. :)
     
    TheVileOne and MaceB like this.
  24. TheVileOne Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    61,377
    Likes Received:
    5,519
    "It is a remarkable dichotomy. In many ways, Clark is the most human of us all. Then…he shoots fire from the skies, and it is difficult not to think of him as a god. And how fortunate we all are that it does not occur to him.”
     
    #1149 TheVileOne, Jun 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
    flickchick85 likes this.
  25. AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    38,148
    Likes Received:
    2,295
    For me alienation and isolation are two of the things I find most interesting about Superman. So Snyder tackling that by putting Superman into the 'real world' so to speak I liked. People today are suspicious, cynical and in a lot of cases downright nasty and waiting for someone to fall from grace. Not to mention politics and how people influence others.

    So if Superman existed in our world, he would be questioned left and right, he would be hated by certain people simply because he wanted to do good, he would be hated by others for many other reasons and in the time of the internet you would get all sorts of people questioning what he does. For a Superman still early in his career, this is bound to make question himself and if what he is doing is actually helping humanity. That's why after the Capitol bombing he disappears as he is questioning his place in the world and feels guilty for the trouble he is causing. That's what Jonathan's speech is about on the mountaintop. Finding a way to deal with that guilt and those insecurities, and this goes back to my earlier post about Superman caring for more than just Lois on Earth. Jonathan felt guilty for a neighbors farm being washed away through his actions to save his own. Martha helped to stop that guilt once they met. Superman feels guilt for the capitol bombing and other people he hasn't been able to save in a cynical and political world. He realizes after 'speaking' to Jonathan that none of the other stuff matters as long as he has Lois by his side. Hence "this is my world, YOU are my world.". He has stopped questioning himself by this point and I think Snyder's plan was for a slightly more carefree Superman in his JL.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"