All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - Part 3

[Superman2007]

Lara is cast
Julia Ormond In Talks To Play Superman's Mom

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Man of Steel being too dark is also my biggest worry. Most of the films these guys have worked are pretty grim. Snyder did that owl movie though, which was lighter in tone than his other films.

Yeah Legend of the Guardians restored my faith in Snyder's ability to tell a story about Hope too.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

I'm pretty sure that Nolan and Goyer know that Superman is a different character than Batman. I'm sure they came up with a story that was true to the character (i.e. the comics) while also creating a slightly new and/or modern interpretation of Clark/Superman.

I'm more worried about the action sequences being amazing (i.e. special effects) and the acting of our lead (Cavill; who I really haven't seen in anything else).

 

[Godzilla2014]

I had some thoughts on Superman and the backlash in today's world as a part of our popular culture:
Superman in general is a hard character to write faithfully to his modern characterization while still being interesting. In terms of characterization, the modern Superman is about as alien as his physiology: Where most characters, superheroes or otherwise, like Batman are based on their character depth, modern Superman is actually based on his lack thereof: He's intentionally designed to be perfect and flawless to be a moral exemplar. This causes him to be a simple character, which coupled with his immense power makes it hard to really challenge him in a physical, intellectual, or moral way.
Especially today, it is hard for audiences to relate to his simplistic views on morality and moral issues, because "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" is not as simple as it sounds in this day and age when there are so many thought processes, moral and ethical systems, and philosophical viewpoints on what is true and what is just, and let us not forget about the somewhat popular sentiment today that "the American Way" is neither just nor based in truth, especially after the recent wars in the Middle East. As a result many think of Superman's morals are cartoonish and childish with no relevance to the real world.
Thoughts on this analysis of Superman in our day and age?

 

[Wheels]

I'm pretty sure that Nolan and Goyer know that Superman is a different character than Batman. I'm sure they came up with a story that was true to the character (i.e. the comics) while also creating a slightly new and/or modern interpretation of Clark/Superman.

I'm more worried about the action sequences being amazing (i.e. special effects) and the acting of our lead (Cavill; who I really haven't seen in anything else).

Watch The Tudors.

 

[Herolee10]

I'd agree with you, that maybe Snyder should have tried more grounded projects first... But I kind of feel like 'no, he can do whatever type of films he want, as long as he gets MOS right'.

The only thing that worries me with Snyder is that he'll go too dark. And it's not helped by Nolan and Goyer being in the mix because Batman's world is dark.

It's not that I don't think the 'world' should be presented as a harsh and gritty place. But Metropolis isn't Gotham, and Superman isn't Dr Manhattan or Batman or half the other heroes who are full of anger and issues.

I feel like I can trust them to make a good film. But if it's too dark, if Superman comes across as some moody, god like figure, brooding in the shadows, if there's too much violence and not enough lightness and hope... Then it's just gonna end up settling in my mind as a cool AU story.

I suppose that's not so bad though. It worked for Star Trek, and it'd still be better than SR to me.

Man of Steel being too dark is also my biggest worry. Most of the films these guys have worked are pretty grim. Snyder did that owl movie though, which was lighter in tone than his other films.

If this is a origin film, where Superman has not yet made his presence to the world known yet, then how would you guys feel if Metropolis (and generally the world) is presented as somewhat grim and dark? I mean if Clark has not made that impact yet, it would be understandable for the world to not be in a good place, so that when Clark does become Superman, you can see the difference that his actions has made.

 

[Godzilla2014]

If this is a origin film, where Superman has not yet made his presence to the world known yet, then how would you guys feel if Metropolis (and generally the world) is presented as somewhat grim and dark? I mean if Clark has not made that impact yet, it would be understandable for the world to not be in a good place, so that when Clark does become Superman, you can see the difference that his actions has made.

That might work.

 

[Wheels]

I guess what I'm saying is I don't want Superman himself to be dark.

 

[Herolee10]

I guess what I'm saying is I don't want Superman himself to be dark.

Agreed.

Heck, if they can make someone like CA appealing for a modern audience while staying true to his heroic nature/traditional personality, they shouldn't have that much difficulty with Superman's character.

 

[Wheels]

Agreed.

Heck, if they can make someone like CA appealing for a modern audience while staying true to his heroic nature/traditional personality, they shouldn't have that much difficulty with Superman's character.

I'd definitely like for Superman to be more physical and show some intensely, but I don't want to see Superman brooding.

 

[Herolee10]

I'd definitely like for Superman to be more physical and show some intensely, but I don't want to see Superman brooding.

Well for starters:

1. We actually have a super powered villain who can give as good as he takes from Superman; so there's bound to be scenes where hopefully, Superman's fight with Zod will outshine the final fight between Neo and Smith.


2. Given that Clark isn't going to find the love of his life having moved on in a engagement with another guy, while having had a kid, I think we're safe on the brooding part. The only things that I see Superman being sad about are things like finding out his true origins/the Public being potentially divided about his presence at first/Being unable to save everyone.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Superman in general is a hard character to write faithfully to his modern characterization while still being interesting. In terms of characterization, the modern Superman is about as alien as his physiology: Where most characters, superheroes or otherwise, like Batman are based on their character depth, modern Superman is actually based on his lack thereof: He's intentionally designed to be perfect and flawless to be a moral exemplar.

This causes him to be a simple character, which coupled with his immense power makes it hard to really challenge him in a physical, intellectual, or moral way.

Especially today, it is hard for audiences to relate to his simplistic views on morality and moral issues, because "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" is not as simple as it sounds in this day and age when there are so many thought processes, moral and ethical systems, and philosophical viewpoints on what is true and what is just, and let us not forget about the somewhat popular sentiment today that "the American Way" is neither just nor based in truth, especially after the recent wars in the Middle East.

As a result many think of Superman's morals are cartoonish and childish with no relevance to the real world.
Thoughts on this analysis of Superman in our day and age?

I couldn't disagree more.

Superman was written to stand for 'Truth, Justice and The American Way' sure.

But how do you decide what is truth? What is Justice? And even what is the American Way.

It's not like Superman would agree with America's war on Iraq IMO.

It's just the principals that America was built on that he stands for. The ideas of freedom, rights etc.

Being Superman is incredibly complicated. Unlike other heroes, people are actually looking to him as a pillar of morality. He has an enormous pressure to make sure that he judges every situation subjectively and fairly. He tries to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. He's sees the good in all humanity and tries to bring it out of everyone.

But that doesn't mean he's perfect, or flawless. He's a man. He makes a lot of effort to avoid crossing the line between someone who helps and someone who has 'too much' power.

And it doesn't mean that he's cartoonish or not as deep as other heroes either.

When I think about everything that Superman has to deal with; the corruption he witnesses silenty all the time, the villainy by people in power... And the amount of people that he's seen die because he was a second too late, the amount bodies of children, babies, entire families that he's unearthed in the rubble of an earthquake, the rape attacks he stops, or some that he may only come across half way through... There is nothing cartoony about that.

And there is nothing cartoony about a man who decides that the best way to combat the evils in the world isn't to try to control people or rule them, but to set an example. To stand as an 'encourager' if you will, for all the good people already out there to stand up for what they believe in.

I think Superman is the most complicated hero there is.

I think the reason the public don't get him at the moment - is because writers are afraid of delving into the deeper areas BECAUSE they are so complicated. Because they don't have a good handle on what to do with him, how to go about telling those stories without screwing it up. So they just go the lazy route. Simplify him. Never touch on his inner conflicts. Make out like he never gets upset, never wavers, never gets there too late, never makes a mistake.

In short, I don't think it's Superman that's the problem. The concept is brilliant, and some writers have really shown that. It's just that he is handled badly sometimes.

 

[elgaz]

Totally agree with above. Superman being 'simple' is a common misconception ...................... which only appears that way because he sticks fairly rigidly to a moral code which many modern people may find antiquated nowadays.

Stick Superman and Batman in 2 similar situations where they can't use any powers or technology, and I guarantee Batman will actually have the simpler approach - he'll resort to violence or intimidation as a quick resolution. But that's to be expected, he's the goddamn Batman

Superman will first look for some other angle and will only resort to physicality as a last measure. Even in the films he always gives the villain time to desist what they're doing, and to turn back on their chosen path. That to me is the guy who has more complicated choices to make.

 

[Herolee10]

Superman will first look for some other angle and will only resort to physicality as a last measure. Even in the films he always gives the villain time to desist what they're doing, and to turn back on their chosen path. That to me is the guy who has more complicated choices to make.

Agreed..and if I'm not mistaken, Superman has been known to get blamed for things by the public whenever he's unable to avoid a disaster because he wasn't able to be there on time or because he was busy saving someone elsewhere.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

That to me is the guy who has more complicated choices to make.

Exactly.

 

[elgaz]

Agreed..and if I'm not mistaken, Superman has been known to get blamed for things by the public whenever he's unable to avoid a disaster because he wasn't able to be there on time or because he was busy saving someone elsewhere.

Yeah that's happened a fair bit. He may move at the speed of light, but he invests a lot of his time in trying to get people to do the right thing.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

That Newsarama article was perfect.

 

[Herolee10]

Yeah that's happened a fair bit. He may move at the speed of light, but he invests a lot of his time in trying to get people to do the right thing.

I think the general consensus of a lot of civilians are that the stronger the hero is, the more bigger his responsibility will be when it comes to saving people, thus bigger blame placed on that said hero whenever they don't make it on time for something.

The problem is that some expect Superman to serve humanity 24/7, especially since no one would think that he has a quiet/personal life of his own, and Superman's inability to save everyone has often led himself to wondering if he has the right to have a normal life.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

It's a difficult expectation. The more times he does show up just in the nick of time, the more times he defies the odds to save the day, the more of a shock it is when he fails.

I think they handled his issues about this really well in LnC. They had Lex setting up tonnes of tragedies to prove to Superman that he couldn't be everywhere and be the big hero he was trying to be. He nearly gave in and left town to stop Lex from hurting anyone else - and it was Lois that reminded him that what he was doing was worth it.

Clark: You think Superman would have been able to stop this? (Pointing to the aftermath of a car crash on TV) Or that?

Lois: No. Even Superman can't be everywhere at once.

Clark: Then what good is he?

Lois: What he can't do... it doesn't matter. It's the idea of Superman. Someone to believe in. Someone to build a few hopes around. Whatever he can do: that's enough.

I think a lot of it is about Clark, who is used to being nice and liked by everyone, accepting that in any standing in the public eye, there are going to be people that don't like you. People that try to pick faults and moan. That's just unfortunately the way it is. But it doesn't mean what they think or say is true.

 

[Herolee10]

It's a difficult expectation. The more times he does show up just in the nick of time, the more times he defies the odds to save the day, the more of a shock it is when he fails.

I think they handled his issues about this really well in LnC. They had Lex setting up tonnes of tragedies to prove to Superman that he couldn't be everywhere and be the big hero he was trying to be. He nearly gave in and left town to stop Lex from hurting anyone else - and it was Lois that reminded him that what he was doing was worth it.

Clark: You think Superman would have been able to stop this? (Pointing to the aftermath of a car crash on TV) Or that?

Lois: No. Even Superman can't be everywhere at once.

Clark: Then what good is he?

Lois: What he can't do... it doesn't matter. It's the idea of Superman. Someone to believe in. Someone to build a few hopes around. Whatever he can do: that's enough.

I think a lot of it is about Clark, who is used to being nice and liked by everyone, accepting that in any standing in the public eye, there are going to be people that don't like you. People that try to pick faults and moan. That's just unfortunately the way it is. But it doesn't mean what they think or say is true.

I don't think that's been the case with the character prior before his superman days in recent incarnations. I mean as far as i remember, one of Clark's problems when growing up was finding a way to fit in and since he was so afraid of exposing himself at times, he had to act awkwardly around people which led to him being shunned by some of his peers due to his weird behavior (from their perspectives), so I don't think Clark would be used to the thought of being liked by everyone prior before his superman days.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Well yeah from that perspective it's different. But even then, translating that to a global scale... Well it's just the burden of celebrity isn't it. People are talking about you all the time, positive or negative. Which if your in it for the money is a good thing. But when your just trying to inspire hope and people are constantly airing their fears, worries and sometimes hatred and women's chat shows are discussing what's under the red pants, it must be incredibly uncomfortable and frustrating.

 

[sf2]

(Sigh)

Anyone remember the days when $53 million for an opening weekend was actually considered good, or am I just really old?

If anything... a lesson WB should learn a lesson with GL that dumping hundreds of millions of dollars into a project - ANY project - is a huge risk.

anyone know the budget for MOS?
it seems like more well-known actors are joining MOS...
i don't to see too huge amount on money spent on big names...
and they are hard to manage too.

 

[sf2]

If we go by those standards for Superman, then we have exactly what Jor-el wanted for Superman in the Donner Era, which in my honest opinion, is too much to ask for considering how the character has changed in the comics since then.

If my memory serves me correct, given how Superman has been written within the last 2-3 decades (where Clark is the predominant Persona), although Superman may appear god like, he was still raised with the mindset of a human being.

One of his most notable issues that he’s struggled with in life has always been his feeling of loneliness, of being the last of his kind and not really having someone to talk to when he was growing up who he could truly relate with. Then there’s the fear that I’m sure a lot of us have felt that Superman has been known to have, and that is the fear of ending up alone in life.

Sure, he doesn’t worry about things like meeting his bills and rent on time like a lot of us do, but he can get frustrated over the some of same things that we do as well; heck, as much as Clark loves Lois or respects Batman/WW, they all end up frustrating him at times with their antics.

I also remember reading a issue where Clark was stressed about meeting a deadline for a article due to having to work and balance it out with his heroic duties as well.

And I’m sure that prior towards becoming Superman, that like all of us have asked ourselves, he had wondered on what or who he would end up becoming in life when he was growing up, especially with powers like his and how he’d fit in society.

yep. i like to see all those too.

but i would love to see them doing a bit more on superman's thought. that he is having 'unique' view on things, which can be very funny or inspiring.

and most of all, i wanna see a cheerful and happy superman movie.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I'd rather they spend the money on well respected names than tonnes and tonnes of over the top CGI myself.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I couldn't disagree more.

Superman was written to stand for 'Truth, Justice and The American Way' sure.

But how do you decide what is truth? What is Justice? And even what is the American Way.

It's not like Superman would agree with America's war on Iraq IMO.

It's just the principals that America was built on that he stands for. The ideas of freedom, rights etc.

Being Superman is incredibly complicated. Unlike other heroes, people are actually looking to him as a pillar of morality. He has an enormous pressure to make sure that he judges every situation subjectively and fairly. He tries to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. He's sees the good in all humanity and tries to bring it out of everyone.

But that doesn't mean he's perfect, or flawless. He's a man. He makes a lot of effort to avoid crossing the line between someone who helps and someone who has 'too much' power.

And it doesn't mean that he's cartoonish or not as deep as other heroes either.

When I think about everything that Superman has to deal with; the corruption he witnesses silenty all the time, the villainy by people in power... And the amount of people that he's seen die because he was a second too late, the amount bodies of children, babies, entire families that he's unearthed in the rubble of an earthquake, the rape attacks he stops, or some that he may only come across half way through... There is nothing cartoony about that.

And there is nothing cartoony about a man who decides that the best way to combat the evils in the world isn't to try to control people or rule them, but to set an example. To stand as an 'encourager' if you will, for all the good people already out there to stand up for what they believe in.

I think Superman is the most complicated hero there is.

I think the reason the public don't get him at the moment - is because writers are afraid of delving into the deeper areas BECAUSE they are so complicated. Because they don't have a good handle on what to do with him, how to go about telling those stories without screwing it up. So they just go the lazy route. Simplify him. Never touch on his inner conflicts. Make out like he never gets upset, never wavers, never gets there too late, never makes a mistake.

In short, I don't think it's Superman that's the problem. The concept is brilliant, and some writers have really shown that. It's just that he is handled badly sometimes.

Actually that was exactly the kind of thing I was talking about (except that Superman would oppose the Iraq War thing, since I will try to refrain from a political debate, and I don't want to turn Superman into a mouthpiece for my political views. Though I did bring the issue up in my post.) It was about how many of his detractors see him. By simple, I meant in that Superman adheres fairly rigidly to a strict moral code, and he doesn't have many flaws as a character. This moral code often comes off as being rather simple, so thus the character is seen by many detractors to be simple and cartoonish, and therefore, irrelevant to the melting pot of ideas that is our modern world.

In short, I agree with you. Superman as a concept isn't the problem, it's in the execution. I want Man of Steel to put Superman in a situation that challenges his moral and philosophical preconceptions, much like The Dark Knight did with Batman.

Totally agree with above. Superman being 'simple' is a common misconception ...................... which only appears that way because he sticks fairly rigidly to a moral code which many modern people may find antiquated nowadays.

Stick Superman and Batman in 2 similar situations where they can't use any powers or technology, and I guarantee Batman will actually have the simpler approach - he'll resort to violence or intimidation as a quick resolution. But that's to be expected, he's the goddamn Batman

Superman will first look for some other angle and will only resort to physicality as a last measure. Even in the films he always gives the villain time to desist what they're doing, and to turn back on their chosen path. That to me is the guy who has more complicated choices to make.

Batman is not that simplistic.

I'd rather they spend the money on well respected names than tonnes and tonnes of over the top CGI myself.

I wholeheartedly agree.