Arrow Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 10

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There are no plans now. And even if the Birds of Prey don't branch out into their own show, there could potentially be arcs on Arrow. And it'd still be a bad idea of have the two main Birds be Laurel and Helena.

It would be fine. As long as Oliver is likeable, that's all that matters. He's the show's protagonist and the one everyone is supposed to root for.

Besides, I'm sure a noticeable chunk of the show's audience (the Felicity fans) will start trashing Sara during episodes 14-18; her relationship with Oliver.

Sadly those are the types of fans that the showrunners and network seem to notice the most, thanks to Tumblr and whatnot.


So basically, the likeability of the BoP characters is moot.
 
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:atp:
 
Yeah, Sara cares so little about Laurel. The reason she practically stalked her, was out of boredom. She reason she came back when Oliver called her? Just to get Oliver to stop pestering her.


And yet next ep she and Oliver rub salt in Laurel's wounds by showing up to the family dinner together. I just feel the love. :whatever::whatever:
 
And we don't know the circumstances of that scene. Oliver threw a welcome back party for Sara, that Laurel refused to attend. Then Quentin plans a family dinner, to which Laurel agrees to come. I don't think Oliver is so stupid that he'll appear uninvited. I see Quentin pulling the same stunt, that he did to get Laurel to the A.A. meeting.
 
I don't see it happening. Esp not without Babs. But a Catwoman show would be great.
 
Which app gives you that Bat symbol?
 
^ no idea, got the link from reddit.

It really seems Katie is out of the loop when it comes to arrow, hardly ever in the photos an what not
 
Have you guys looked at the date of the Twitt? It's 1:13 of 02/13/14, so in the timezone she is it's already thursday, and there will be a rerun of The Scientist episode of Arrow.
 
We need to talk about Laurel​


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Okay, people. Let’s talk about Laurel.

Laurel Lance is one of the main characters in CW’s Arrow, former legal aid attorney, ex-girlfriend of Oliver Queen, and daughter of Detective Lance. Laurel has never been fully liked by fans, her initial reception lukewarm at best. This was partly due to a severe mishandling of her character, and partly to do with the strange cyberhatred of actress Katie Cassidy by certain viewers.

Laurel’s popularity further suffered throughout Arrow‘s first season when a far more appealing character was presented in the form of Felicity Smoak (Emily Bett Rickards): IT-genius-turned-hacker who joins Ollie’s team. Rickards was promoted to series regular halfway through season one. Look no further for fans’ favorite than the promo poster for season two, in which Felicity is featured prominently next to Oliver in the front, and Laurel is relegated to the back.

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Couldn’t Arrow develop two kick ass, main female characters? One would think so, but Laurel’s trajectory has been one misstep after another by the show’s writers. At first they tried to present Laurel as an idealistic, justice-seeking legal aid lawyer, with more passion than sense.

Her career faded into the background as the season progressed, and the writers started developing a love triangle between Laurel, Oliver and Tommy (Ollie’s best friend) — a decision that encountered massive backlash due to the utter lack of chemistry between Cassidy and Amell. Season one had flashbacks of Oliver trapped on the island, thinking of Laurel. You would have thought the guy’s survival was based upon the number of times he pulled Laurel’s snapshot out of his pocket. Yet when the two actors shared a scene? Flatter than day-old bubbly. (Amell and Rickards on the other hand? Well, fans created “Olicity” for a reason.)

Writers tried involving Laurel in Thea Queen’s life (sister to Oliver). They tried partnering her with The Hood to take down criminals. Several times, they placed her in danger and in need of rescuing — whether by Oliver or her father. The writing team never really knew what to do with Laurel. So she became an aimless, inconsistent character without purpose.

Arrow is currently in the middle of its second season, and the writers are trying to mend the Laurel problem. After an inexplicable absence from the series before the midseason finale, Laurel has returned to the show, and the writers have taken the phoenix approach: Burn the current Laurel to ashes and let something new arise.

Only, fans aren’t allowing that process to happen. The Laurel hate continues.

Try these on for size. {And warning, these comments are truly heinous.}

I really do hope her downright spiral comes to an abrupt end with a bone shattering thud on the rocky floor of oblivion so the show can go back to being an awesome crime fighting/soul searching cartoon.

Seriously Laurel, calm your **** and go die in a hole.

I’ve never wanted Laurel to die until this episode.

May she get run over by a legion of massive vehicles. Repeatedly.

There are hundreds more anti-Laurel statements in forums, comment sections, and on Twitter. Let’s break this down, shall we?

Ugly, trolling comments aside, the main complaints against Laurel can be gathered into five groups.

1. She’s entitled, self-righteous, selfish, bratty, whiny, *****y

The bulk of complaints seem to fall into this camp. And honestly, it can be difficult to defend the character because she often is selfish and whiny. Again, this has more to do with the less-than-stellar material that Cassidy has been given. However, it’s important to recognize that Laurel engages with a lot of emotion-driven storylines. Whether she’s sorting out conflicting feelings about Oliver, dealing with guilt for Tommy’s death, or navigating the blurry lines of law and justice, Laurel’s stories are connected to themes of identity, trauma, forgiveness, trust, and betrayal. Such themes are inextricably linked with emotion and relationships, and they have historically found a home in melodrama. They’re to be expected in that television genre. The same cannot be said of the comic book-inspired action genre, which brings us to the second group…

2. She’s boring and useless

Because the writers didn’t know what to do with Laurel, it did feel as though they were inventing reasons for her to be in the show. Yet, I think this complaint points to something deeper. For the most part, Laurel has only been peripherally attached to action plots. Along with Thea, Laurel receives the relationship, family and personal storylines, and there is still a misconception amongst audiences that emotion, relationships and family can’t coexist and interplay with action.

Based off their own comments, viewers gravitate towards and appreciate the action scenes, crime-fighting narratives, and the characters therein. Shado, Felicity, Helena Bertinielli (Huntress) and Sara Lance (Canary) are perceived to be more “exciting” than Laurel, Thea, and Moira. Laurel’s addiction to drugs and alcohol, albeit an overused and somewhat lazy writing choice, should be tragic, given her own father’s struggle with addiction and her admonition of it. Instead, her pill popping is considered banal in comparison to skewering bad guys with arrows.

3. She’s a damsel in distress and, just, ungh

Laurel and the writers can’t win. She’s boring because she isn’t involved in the main action sequences, and when she is involved in the action, she’s often the one in need of rescuing. I do like that the viewers want more from Laurel. For the comic fans that believe Laurel will, at some point, evolve into the Black Canary, there is a frustration in seeing her so passive. And rightfully so.

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4. She has no chemistry with Oliver

We’ve already addressed this, and it’s true. Thankfully, the writers have pulled back from forcing an Oliver-Laurel relationship and are allowing them to romantically and sexually engage with other partners. Cassidy and Amell have also worked on their on-screen interactions. The recent episode “Blind Spot” is one of the first times when it’s possible to imagine that the two of them share a very personal and complicated history; their exchanges are believable. It’s not much progress, but it’s there all the same — and it should offer viewers a small hope.

5. She’s wildly inconsistent

We’ve covered this, too. The complaint has validity, and the writers are attempting to rectify this weakness.

The point in all of this: Yes, Laurel has been a major weakness in the series. She has frequently been an unlikeable character. She’s hardly my favorite, but I hate to see her torn apart by viewers, particularly as the character is going through her own narrative arc, presumably to a place of rebirth and transformation.

In the aftermath of last week’s episode (Heir to the Demon), I found viewers’ response to Laurel baffling. Here is a character who just found out that her sister, whom she believed to be dead, is suddenly back in Starling City. The Lance sisters have a messy relationship, filled with common sibling attributes like jealousy, competitiveness, and rivalry — not to mention the unpleasant fact that Sara cheated with Oliver right before the Queen’s Gambit sank. Despite all this, the two sisters do love each other, which makes all the negative, complicated emotions that much messier.

Arrow reviewer Noel Kirkpatrick wrote a tremendous piece that dissects the Lance sisters more in-depth, so I won’t rehash here. Suffice to say that Laurel’s spiral won’t magically go away. Individuals that have their foundation irrevocably collapse beneath their feet don’t simply “get over it.” Healing past wounds, reconciling betrayal, and rediscovering one’s identity is a long, pain-filled, and often lonely process. As viewers, we need to be patient with it.

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Audiences flock to witness the self-destruction and ruination of such male characters as Walter White, Tony Soprano and Don Draper. I’m not claiming that there is gender disparity at play (there are, after all, anti-heroines), but it is worth noting that when a female character gets angry, irrational, and emotional, viewers are quick to label her a “*****” or a “child.” Newsflash: We all have our own personal moments of irrationality, emotion, and anger. It’s called being human. And one of television’s greatest abilities is to show stories of humanity in all its messiness, its ugliness, and its complexities.

For those that know the DC Comics, the story of Dinah (Laurel) Lance is a rich, layered one. Arrow’s showrunners have repeatedly said that Laurel cannot simply transform from the current Laurel into the Black Canary from the comics. Much like Oliver’s arc (which we’re still witnessing via flashbacks), her arc will take time in order to do it justice.

Seeing how the writers have handled some of the missteps with Oliver’s character, the positive course correction for Thea, and the slow, thoughtful way they’re building the subplots of the Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey team, I have faith that they will continue to improve the story of Laurel Lance.

As viewers, we have to be willing to forgive, to grant new starts, and to reconsider how we respond to a character. Let the writers do their job. Allow Laurel to get messier, angrier, and more desperate. If her evolution never comes — or if she’s still spiralling in season three — then it’s time to complain to Guggenheim & Co. and make all hell break loose.

Until then, be patient and let Laurel be human.

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is there seriously no new episode tonight? they came back for like 3
 
No. Olympic break.
Reek you watch AoS at all?
If you do then you shouldn't be surprised AoS came back from Xmas break with 2 new episodes took a three week break.
Came back 2/4 with a new episode now they are on another break the Olympic break.
 
is there seriously no new episode tonight? they came back for like 3

Two weeks break for the winter olympics. Rerun of episode 9 tomorrow.

...Along with Thea, Laurel receives the relationship, family and personal storylines, and there is still a misconception amongst audiences that emotion, relationships and family can’t coexist and interplay with action.

Based off their own comments, viewers gravitate towards and appreciate the action scenes, crime-fighting narratives, and the characters therein...

Gotta agree with this.
 
No. Olympic break.
Reek you watch AoS at all?
If you do then you shouldn't be surprised AoS came back from Xmas break with 2 new episodes took a three week break.
Came back 2/4 with a new episode now they are on another break the Olympic break.

Yeah, the AoS scheduling has been a complete mess. Hard to stay interested in that show.
 
I don't see another BIRDS OF PREY series happening anytime soon after the disaster that the last one was.
 
I don't see another BIRDS OF PREY series happening anytime soon after the disaster that the last one was.

It's been over a decade and the show didn't even last a year. The general audience would barely remember it, if they remember it at all, and the nerds would just be happy to potentially have a show that skews closer to the source material.
 
The only thing I can think as a problem is with all the spin off shows something will suffer.
 
I would love it if they would do something like a mini series. Have the Birds start out in Arrow. Do maybe a 6 or 12 Episode Arc, outside of Arrow. Then when it's done, bring them back as recurring characters.
 
A big part of the Laurel hate has to derive form impatience with her evolution in comparison to Oliver's and dramatically different interpretations of what type of character Black Canary should be, which inevitably leads to fans of Lotz's Canary (not necessarily her Sara) finding her immensely disappointing.

Laurel Lance was conceived in the vein of the supporting character mold she'd had in the classic Silver Age comics. Her overall part in the initial setting for the show was the "destined love interest;" the character who will inevitably become the center of the protagonist's love life, and one whose main function is ancillary to her male pursuer.

In other words, her character is not necessary to the overall plot.

This trait has been a significant feature of the character in several comics, particularly any Green Arrow solo or partnership book. A common criticism of the last Green Arrow and Black Canary series was that it was almost explicitly not an equal partnership. And even creators seemed aware of this. Kevin Smith notably only had Canary cameo in his runs on the character, and she came off as a much stronger person and hero there than in, say, Judd Winick's stories, where a lot of people thought she'd been lobotomized.

Meanwhile, the now predominant and generally accepted comic interpretation of Black Canary is the one from Birds of Prey and other team books, like Justice League, and even the show Young Justice. Here, Canary is defined as the strong willed and intelligent warrior who leads the Justice League by popular election. She's nobody's second stringer; she's either an equal partner or mentor, and she doesn't need Green Arrow. As far as this interpretation is concerned, he's just another boyfriend who she derived a slight increase in popularity from before striking out on her own again.

If this lady's in a story and featured at anything approaching prominence, you'd better believe she's kriffing important to the plot!

And that's a huge part of the perceived inadequacy of Laurel as a character; she may be someone's Black Canary, but she's probably the Black Canary that you don't like because she's "inferior" to Oliver Queen in focus and importance, and she's further handicapped by having been placed in a position of copying a Smallville-style evolution, but with even more melodrama.

Meanwhile, Sara comes back as pretty much "Vigilante 2.0." She's the hero of her own story, has her own dark secrets and flaws, and she's got storyline mobility. We've yet to have an episode where her time on screen is wasted; she is either kicking butt or having Oliver-style personal revelations. She's a Black Canary you could see leading a team, she's the Black Canary who doesn't need to be rescued as much as assisted while being awesome, and she doesn't revolve around Oliver. If the character survives this season, there's nothing stopping her from having a messy breakup with Oliver, leaving, and then coming right back still as her own character.

They've given us one intentionally matured and developed Black Canary, and an unfortunate side effect of that is that their intentionally immature (in terms of story progression, not personality) Black Canary looks pathetic in comparison and seems so far removed from her eventual goal that a lot of fans get demoralized at the idea of having to wait for her to grow, as well as seeming just ever-so-slightly like a more sexist interpretation of the character from the Silver Age.
 
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