Arrow Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 10

[Infinity9999x]

Source

That article makes some solid points, but I think what it's missing is that the writers have still been handling the character horribly.

The concept of breaking a character down to build them back up is a fine one, but what the writers don't seem to understand is that "breaking down" does not equal "making this character even MORE unlikable."

I don't really blame the actress for most of the Laurel problem. A lot of it is just bad writing. There have been a few times where writers have added little details which just boggle my mind. For example, the detail where we find out Laurel knew Sarah liked Oliver first. Why? What was the point of that? Why did that detail need to be added, because it literally serves no other story purpose besides making Laurel even more unlikeable.

Or take the flashback sequence between Sarah and Laurel. When Sarah raises some, quite logical, questions about Oliver to Laurel, she instantly gets overly-defensive and overreacts to her sister's comments. In a situation where we should clearly feel sorry for Laurel, the writers have now actually made Laurel, once again, act unlikeable for no reason, and actually made us empathize slightly with Sarah. Once again, why? I have no idea why they're doing this, other than the fact that they're actively trying to make the audience dislike her.

A simple change of that scene, where you have Laurel just calmly reply "You know, I think Ollie's really changed. I think he might be the one," to Sarah's comments, instantly changes that mood. Now we feel sorry for Laurel, because she honestly believes Oliver is the guy for her.

They've been doing things like this all season, and it's not helping the character. And I really don't understand they're reasoning. Unless they really are planning on making her a villain as some have speculated. At this point, that honestly may be a better option.

 

[Loki882]

The only thing I can think as a problem is with all the spin off shows something will suffer.

Not necessarily. NCIS is a spin-off from JAG and that show gets HUGE ratings. NCIS: LA is a spinoff of a spinoff, and it's doing quite well. Frasier was a spinoff and it did well, as did the CSI spinoffs. It can be done.

 

[Boy Scout]

The concept of breaking a character down to build them back up is a fine one, but what the writers don't seem to understand is that "breaking down" does not equal "making this character even MORE unlikable."

They might be doing it so that Laurel herself will realize how unlikable she has become. Perhaps that realization will be what will convince her to seek help.

I don't really blame the actress for most of the Laurel problem. A lot of it is just bad writing. There have been a few times where writers have added little details which just boggle my mind.

You took the words right out of my mouth. It has to be intentional. They want to either make her a villain or (like I previously suggested) want her to become consciously aware of how horrible she's become (and has been).

Or take the flashback sequence between Sarah and Laurel. When Sarah raises some, quite logical, questions about Oliver to Laurel, she instantly gets overly-defensive and overreacts to her sister's comments.

I didn't have a problem with that. Considering the state of the character at that point in time (young and smitten), her reaction made perfect sense to me, especially when you consider who she was having that conversation with.

 

[JC00]

Description for Episode 15

Spoiler

“The Promise” —

THE TURNING POINT — Oliver is shocked when he learns that Slade has come to Starling City. Back on the island, as Oliver, Slade and Sara prepare to take over the freighter from Ivo, Sara pulls Oliver aside and tells him he needs to kill Ivo to prevent him from telling Slade what happened with Shado. Oliver feels immense guilt over the situation but realizes Slade’s growing rage from the Mirakuru makes him unpredictable and he could turn on his friends if he thinks Oliver is to blame. Oliver agrees to kill Ivo and the battle begins.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

It's such a strange storyline. If Oliver was allowed to tell Slade the truth about Shado's death from the start, like he wanted to, this whole thing could have been avoided.

Sara lying to him created unnecessary drama and will now turn Slade against them.



And it wasn't like Oliver made a clear choice between Sara and Shado in that situation. Ivo made the choice. He pointed the gun at Sara.

It isn't as big of a deal as they're making it.

 

[The Squirrel]

I don't see why Oliver didn't just run forward and tackle Ivo during that scene.

 

[Herolee10]

It's such a strange storyline. If Oliver was allowed to tell Slade the truth about Shado's death from the start, like he wanted to, this whole thing could have been avoided.

Sara lying to him created unnecessary drama and will now turn Slade against them.



And it wasn't like Oliver made a clear choice between Sara and Shado in that situation. Ivo made the choice. He pointed the gun at Sara.

It isn't as big of a deal as they're making it.

I think Slade, pre-Mirakuru serum injection, would have been more understanding and see it that way, but based on what we've seen of his behavior on the Island after he was injected...I can see why Oliver and Sara would think that Slade could easily misunderstand and turn the truth into some warped version of it.

Plus, I think they wanted to establish on how naive Oliver and Sara were back then compared to their present day selves.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

But Oliver easily talked Slade down out of his rage in that recent episode, where Slade had Oliver at gunpoint.


Oliver could have easily told Slade the truth from the start, as he wanted to, in a safe way.

Sara lied to Slade for no reason. The conflict seems so manufactured.

 

[Boy Scout]

I don't see why Oliver didn't just run forward and tackle Ivo during that scene.

Because then Ivo's men would've shot and killed all three of them.

 

[The Squirrel]

Because then Ivo's men would've shot and killed all three of them.

He didn't get shot when he ran up to Sara, Ivo wasn't that much further, and Slade was right behind them.

From a writing stand point, they really did pick the weakest reason for Slade to go evil. It's like they didn't want the Island story to get too crowded, which would be weird since the Arrow cave is getting extremely crowded.

 

[Infinity9999x]

They might be doing it so that Laurel herself will realize how unlikable she has become. Perhaps that realization will be what will convince her to seek help.

You took the words right out of my mouth. It has to be intentional. They want to either make her a villain or (like I previously suggested) want her to become consciously aware of how horrible she's become (and has been).

If that is their plan...I don't think it's the wisest choice. At this point, they would have to do some pretty major fix work on Laurel. Purposefully making a character unlikeable is a dangerous game. I mean, I've been using Jamie Lannister a lot in comparison to this, because I think that he's a great example of a character that writers broke down but made steadily more likeable with each peg they pulled him down. Now, Jamie started out unlikeable and they did make him a very sympathetic character. But they've been doing the reverse with Laurel, and I just don't see how that's a good idea, if they want to keep her a heroine.

I didn't have a problem with that. Considering the state of the character at that point in time (young and smitten), her reaction made perfect sense to me, especially when you consider who she was having that conversation with.

To be honest, this reaction didn't bother me as much as Laurel's reaction to Sarah being alive, but I still didn't like it. At that point, Laurel should have had no reason to think Sarah had any intentions towards Oliver, and her entire reaction just made her look very defensive and insecure. And made the situation seem more like Laurel was being naive and trying to push Oliver into something he wasn't ready for, as opposed to Oliver just being a jerk. (I mean, he was a jerk either way, but this scene actually garnered a bit more sympathy for Ollie and Sarah that I didn't have beforehand).

Laurel's reaction to Sarah being alive is another example of a good idea but poor execution. It was completely understandable that Laurel would be pissed. I would have been too. But the way the writers wrote the scene, her anger came off more like a pouting child then an adult who was hurt by a loved one. They could have written that in a way that displayed her pain better. Take Oliver's scene with his Mother. You could see that he was extremely angry, but you knew it was coming from a place of deep pain. Now, I wouldn't want Laurel to react the way Oliver did, but it just shows that the writers could have written the scene in a way that didn't put her in (once again) a negative light.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

He didn't get shot when he ran up to Sara, Ivo wasn't that much further, and Slade was right behind them.

From a writing stand point, they really did pick the weakest reason for Slade to go evil. It's like they didn't want the Island story to get too crowded, which would be weird since the Arrow cave is getting extremely crowded.

Don't get me started on Slade's feelings for Shado coming out of nowhere. I get this show is on the CW, but did they really have to use 'love' as what drives him towards evil?

The only good thing to come out of this is probably Deathstroke going after Sara.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Don't get me started on Slade's feelings for Shado coming out of nowhere. I get this show is on the CW, but did they really have to use 'love' as what drives him towards evil?

The only good thing to come out of this is probably Deathstroke going after Sara.

It was definitely a bit out of the blue. I mean, it's somewhat understandable. The guy's alone on an island for how long and now a very attractive woman comes along and goes for the pretty boy that Slade's spent half his time protecting. That could make any guy jealous.

I'm glad it's not JUST the love angle though. The Miraku is obviously messing with his mind. So at least they don't have to blame is solely on that. And who knows, maybe other things will happen in addition to the Shado thing to push Oliver and Slade even farther apart.

 

[Herolee10]

But Oliver easily talked Slade down out of his rage in that recent episode, where Slade had Oliver at gunpoint.


Oliver could have easily told Slade the truth from the start, as he wanted to, in a safe way.

Sara lied to Slade for no reason. The conflict seems so manufactured.

Oliver was only able to talk Slade out of his plan in destroying the frigate by using Shado's feelings (platonic) ones as his advantage.

I doubt Slade would respond the same way if he heard about the supposed "choice" that Oliver made before Shado died.

 

[Herolee10]

It was definitely a bit out of the blue. I mean, it's somewhat understandable. The guy's alone on an island for how long and now a very attractive woman comes along and goes for the pretty boy that Slade's spent half his time protecting. That could make any guy jealous.

I'm glad it's not JUST the love angle though. The Miraku is obviously messing with his mind. So at least they don't have to blame is solely on that. And who knows, maybe other things will happen in addition to the Shado thing to push Oliver and Slade even farther apart.

Honestly, if they had to use Shado as a springboard for all of this, then I would have preferred them having Slade hooking up with Shado, and keeping her relationship with Oliver platonic.and that of a brother/sister one so that it would make even more sense on why Slade cared so much about Shado.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Honestly, if they had to use Shado as a springboard for all of this, then I would have preferred them having Slade hooking up with Shado, and keeping her relationship with Oliver platonic.and that of a brother/sister one so that it would make even more sense on why Slade cared so much about Shado.

I would have preferred that too. But I don't really view it as all his feelings for Shado as his springboard into evil. I think a lot of it has to do with the Miraku. Before his injection, Slade was showing some obvious pining for Shado, but he wasn't trying to act on it, and he showed no signs of trying to backstab Oliver at all.

It's all been after the Miraku that he's been growing more and more unstable. So I blame most of it on that, the stuff obviously is warping his mind.

 

[Herolee10]

I would have preferred that too. But I don't really view it as all his feelings for Shado as his springboard into evil. I think a lot of it has to do with the Miraku. Before his injection, Slade was showing some obvious pining for Shado, but he wasn't trying to act on it, and he showed no signs of trying to backstab Oliver at all.

It's all been after the Miraku that he's been growing more and more unstable. So I blame most of it on that, the stuff obviously is warping his mind.

Oh I agree. The only reason why I would have preferred if Shado had been romantically involved with Slade instead of Oliver is that it wouldn't have felt so jarring for him to develop such powerful feelings for her if they were reciprocated.

I mean, I never got the impression that Slade was the type of person who would fall for someone in the conditions that they were living in during Season 1. Oliver I could understand, but Slade...not as much.

Plus, it'd be nice to see a change in pace where not every attractive woman (who's not related to Oliver) ends up falling high over heels for him.

 

[Boy Scout]

He didn't get shot when he ran up to Sara

If he had come into physical contact with the Ivo, he would've been shot. He didn't, so he wasn't.

Slade was right behind them.

Slade would've been too late. Ivo was seconds away from killing both girls before Oliver made his decision.

 

[Boy Scout]

If that is their plan...I don't think it's the wisest choice. At this point, they would have to do some pretty major fix work on Laurel.

Good. They can be justified in giving the character a complete overhaul if they run her into the ground enough.

Purposefully making a character unlikeable is a dangerous game.

They have nothing to lose.

But they've been doing the reverse with Laurel, and I just don't see how that's a good idea, if they want to keep her a heroine.

If Laurel becomes aware of how terrible she's been, she'll have sufficient motivation to become a better person. Showing her take full responsibility for her actions would, I think, allow the audience to find some common ground with her.

To be honest, this reaction didn't bother me as much as Laurel's reaction to Sarah being alive, but I still didn't like it. At that point, Laurel should have had no reason to think Sarah had any intentions towards Oliver

Why not? We eventually came to find out she had never gotten over him, so it stands to reason that Laurel would've been aware of that fact.

and her entire reaction just made her look very defensive and insecure.

Yes, it did. But again: she was young (21?) and in love. I don't think it's unfair to say that many people that age would react the same way if they were in her position.

And made the situation seem more like Laurel was being naive and trying to push Oliver into something he wasn't ready for, as opposed to Oliver just being a jerk.

I would agree with that if we didn't know for a fact that Oliver hadn't been leading her on the entire time.

Laurel's reaction to Sarah being alive is another example of a good idea but poor execution. It was completely understandable that Laurel would be pissed. I would have been too. But the way the writers wrote the scene, her anger came off more like a pouting child then an adult who was hurt by a loved one.

She was hardly in her right mind during that scene. I'm not defending her, but context is very important. Besides: I'm not sure we were supposed to sympathize with Laurel.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Good. They can be justified in giving the character a complete overhaul if they run her into the ground enough.

They have nothing to lose.

If Laurel becomes aware of how terrible she's been, she'll have sufficient motivation to become a better person. Showing her take full responsibility for her actions would, I think, allow the audience to find some common ground with her.

Why not? We eventually came to find out she had never gotten over him, so it stands to reason that Laurel would've been aware of that fact.

Yes, it did. But again: she was young (21?) and in love. I don't think it's unfair to say that many people that age would react the same way if they were in her position.

I would agree with that if we didn't know for a fact that Oliver hadn't been leading her on the entire time.

She was hardly in her right mind during that scene. I'm not defending her, but context is very important. Besides: I'm not sure we were supposed to sympathize with Laurel.

I get what you're saying, but honestly I would have preferred they just...you know, write the character in a more likeable way, instead of seemingly going out of their way to do the opposite. Unless of course they are planning to turn her into a Cupid-like villain, in which case what they're doing is brilliant.

The thing is, you can still have a character be on a crash course with disaster in a show and not make them so unlikeable. House literally lived off this entire premise, and tons of other shows have done the "tear the character down" thing without making the audience hate the character. I just don't know if what the writers are doing is the smartest decision. But I'm going to wait it out and see.

 

[Boy Scout]

I get what you're saying, but honestly I would have preferred they just...you know, write the character in a more likeable way, instead of seemingly going out of their way to do the opposite. Unless of course they are planning to turn her into a Cupid-like villain, in which case what they're doing is brilliant.

Oh, trust me, I agree.

The thing is, you can still have a character be on a crash course with disaster in a show and not make them so unlikeable. House literally lived off this entire premise, and tons of other shows have done the "tear the character down" thing without making the audience hate the character. I just don't know if what the writers are doing is the smartest decision. But I'm going to wait it out and see.

I have faith in them. However, if fixing her is indeed the plan, regardless of whether or not they want to eventually turn her into the Black Canary, they'll need to be very careful about it.

 

[Nathan]

 

[DrRocket]

^ I can dig it.

Man this hiatus is annoying, I need my fix

 

[JC00]

http://i.imgur.com/iGzkJGe.jpg

Damnit Laurel!

Hilarious thing about that is she tweeted that in the morning (Pacific Time) and there wasn't even a repeat of Arrow on last night. TV listings said CW was aired a movie.

Does it really take that much to know when new episodes air? It is literally only 22-23 dates a year

 

[JC00]

Have you guys looked at the date of the Twitt? It's 1:13 of 02/13/14, so in the timezone she is it's already thursday, and there will be a rerun of The Scientist episode of Arrow.

She actually tweeted that 2/12 9:27AM Pacific Time. The person that took the screen shot had their twitter time zone set to some time zone that was 16 hours ahead of Pacific Time.