Arrow Arrow General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 25

[Mikelus]

I don't want her to be trapped in White Canary mode when it was a way of working around a character who isn't even there anymore.

It should not bother you she's the White Canary, the real Black Canary is a very different character in the comics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Canary

White Canary gives them more freedom to do whatever they want with the character since she doesn't have much of a history yet: http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/White_Canary_(New_Earth)

If the owner of these characters, DC Comics, cared a bit more, we would not have any of these controversies. Lets not forget DC gives permission to the producers to use the characters, they can't do whatever they want, but, it seems DC doesn't care about Green Arrow like they should, which isn't very smart, they would gain more love and respect from the fans if they did.

 

[SpideyVille]

I kinda feel like Arrow served it's purpose. It rebooted DC TV after Smallville ended and the Aquaman/Wonder Woman shows didn't get past the pilot. It pre-dates Daredevil, and opened the door for The Flash, Gotham, Legends and now Supergirl. It showed that comic book characters can have engaging stories that are well suited a television audience.

But onw, they just don't know how to move forward, and with the show on the CW, it's more than likely going to find itself in Smallville/Supernatural territory, where the show is only there because it brings more viewers than any other new show they might start would, which doesn't necessarily mean that those shows are worse. The writing an dthe budget are no where near what they were a few years ago and the show is suffering for it.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

Nah the wannabe won't be getting killed off

Spoiler

It's heavily expected that it is Nyssas little friend who by the way is suppose to be reoccurring during S5

Oh, well that'd be better than it being [BLACKOUT]Felicity[/BLACKOUT].

 

[Fincher]

It should not bother you she's the White Canary, the real Black Canary is a very different character in the comics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Canary

White Canary gives them more freedom to do whatever they want with the character since she doesn't have much of a history yet: http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/White_Canary_(New_Earth)

I'm curious what it is you think she would be forced to be (or forced not to be) as a result of being renamed Black Canary. It's not like they didn't take liberties with Laurel.

Forced to change her outfit? I'm in favor of that.

Forced to be more lighthearted and sexually forward? I think they've already taken steps in that direction; in terms of character, LoT Sara is more like the Black Canary I've read than Arrow Laurel or Arrow Sara.

Forced to marry Oliver? Well, they didn't seem to care about that with Laurel. I guess Olicity fans might consider her a threat, but she isn't on Guggenheim's show, so whatever.

Forced to be more moral? Okay, I guess that's possible (although they might well be moving in that direction, anyway). So let's say she goes back to just being The Canary, since there's no longer another one to distinguish. Then they can do whatever they want with her, including change her outfit.

 

[Slade W]

I kinda feel like Arrow served it's purpose. It rebooted DC TV after Smallville ended and the Aquaman/Wonder Woman shows didn't get past the pilot. It pre-dates Daredevil, and opened the door for The Flash, Gotham, Legends and now Supergirl. It showed that comic book characters can have engaging stories that are well suited a television audience.

But onw, they just don't know how to move forward, and with the show on the CW, it's more than likely going to find itself in Smallville/Supernatural territory, where the show is only there because it brings more viewers than any other new show they might start would, which doesn't necessarily mean that those shows are worse. The writing an dthe budget are no where near what they were a few years ago and the show is suffering for it.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they are better either. If Smallville and Supernatural lasted as long as they did, then they deserve credit and respect. They must have done something right. It is not easy for shows to maintain a high level of quality for long, and that is why there are far more that don't.

 

[Slade W]

If the owner of these characters, DC Comics, cared a bit more, we would not have any of these controversies. Lets not forget DC gives permission to the producers to use the characters, they can't do whatever they want, but, it seems DC doesn't care about Green Arrow like they should, which isn't very smart, they would gain more love and respect from the fans if they did.

Overall, I am sure that DC comics is very happy with what Arrow has done. It is one of the few good live-action adaptions that they have had going for them since Nolan stopped making Batman movies. The only other good live-action adaptions that they have had in recent years is The Flash, LOT and Supergirl, which are recent, in comparison to Arrow which has been going for almost four years, and again, DC have Arrow to thank for them. Despite the drop in quality in the last two seasons, bad writing and the stupid decisions that that have been made, Arrow has been a success and has made a significant contribution to the TV Superhero genre. I am sure that DC is very happy with what Arrow has done, and they are right to be.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Why are people saying Sara's not on Guggenheim's show like he isn't involved in Legends of Tomorrow?

 

[Slade W]

Why are people saying Sara's not on Guggenheim's show like he isn't involved in Legends of Tomorrow?

People have a point when they say that it is better for Sara to stay on LOT. She will be a much more prominent and important character on that show. If she comes on Arrow, she will be muscling in on Felicity's turf, and have to wrestle with her for screen-time and importance on the show, and it is a fight that the former LOA member will lose.

 

[SpideyVille]

It doesn't necessarily mean that they are better either. If Smallville and Supernatural lasted as long as they did, then they deserve credit and respect. They must have done something right. It is not easy for shows to maintain a high level of quality for long, and that is why there are far more that don't.

The way I see it, the CW is a tiny pond, so those shows looked like big fish. Put them on any other network and they are DOA.

It's a big reason why people have said that if CBS doesn't pick up Supergirl because of poor ratings, the CW would be more than happy to, because those low ratings would be high by their standards.

 

[Slade W]

The way I see it, the CW is a tiny pond, so those shows looked like big fish. Put them on any other network and they are DOA.

It's a big reason why people have said that if CBS doesn't pick up Supergirl because of poor ratings, the CW would be more than happy to, because those low ratings would be high by their standards.

I don't think anybody would say that they are amongst the best shows on TV like Mad Men or Breaking Bad, but they are or were good shows , perhaps even very good at some stage. If they were on another network, perhaps they would have more resources and a bigger audience, and as a result could be even better.

 

[SpideyVille]

I don't think anybody would say that they are amongst the best shows on TV like Mad Men or Breaking Bad, but they are or were good shows , perhaps even great at some stage. If they were on another network, perhaps they would have more resources and a bigger audience, and as a result could be even better.

My main point is they were good shows early on, but they went on so long that at a certain point, a lot of the core fans were upset or felt like the show had jumped the ship. I haven't followed Supernatural the same way that I did Smallville, but at least Smallville attempted to bring the show back to what its original purpose was.

The problem with Arrow is that it peaked at two seasons and has been dropping in quality, despite the producer's reassurance that it will return back to form. And the CW is more interested in continuing with a known success, as opposed to trying something new in its place.

 

[SpideyVille]

Do we still have someone who keeps track of the screen time per episode. I tried to look for some online, but I couldn't find anything on the most recent episode.'

It's interesting because in the first half, before the break, Laurel actually had a minute more of screentime than Felicity, and someone commented on how they were enjoying the season more because Felicity wasn't as heavily featured, and Quentin was finally being utilized. But then jump into one of the last few episodes, and suddenly Felicity had about a half hour more of screen time than Laurel, and that's pretty much around the time when the quality of the show dropped again.

 

[Slade W]

My main point is they were good shows early on, but they went on so long that at a certain point, a lot of the core fans were upset or felt like the show had jumped the ship. I haven't followed Supernatural the same way that I did Smallville, but at least Smallville attempted to bring the show back to what its original purpose was.

The problem with Arrow is that it peaked at two seasons and has been dropping in quality, despite the producer's reassurance that it will return back to form. And the CW is more interested in continuing with a known success, as opposed to trying something new in its place.

Fair enough, I agree with that. The show is certainly very different from what it was in season 1 and 2, and I don't just mean quality, there is a difference in tone etc. I am hoping that there is a drop in rating and that people keep complaining on twitter to the writers, and that they are either replaced or step it up and try new things. I am going to keep watching because I still like the show, but I want it to improve and get back to season 1 and 2 quality, so I hope others stop watching and back up what they said they were going to do, and hopefully the writers will be forced to respond by improving.

 

[Mikelus]

From an interview with the "beloved genius":

TVLINE | Get invited to be the DA….

Marc Guggenheim: Get invited to be the DA…. But the truth is — and bear in mind, this is the lawyer/legal writer in me speaking — every time we’ve tried to set scenes in a courtroom, I don’t think it’s always been the strongest element of the show. It has nothing to do with the directors, the actors or anything. The show is just not built for that, and I feel like every time we do it, it shows. Some people occasionally tweet at me, “Why don’t we see Laurel in the courtroom more?” Honestly, it’s very expensive to go on location, and when we do it the scenes always fall flat for some reason.

http://tvline.com/2016/04/06/arrow-katie-cassidy-leaving-laurel-dies-grave-season-4/

(Now a little message for MG)

Dear Marc, if the scenes fall flat, that's because of the poor writing from you and your writers. You know, there's this little show called Daredevil, they do courtroom scenes that are well-written and entertaining, it's just a matter of will and talent, it seems you're lacking both. You should hire new writers pronto before you ruin the show even more and you're left with only shippers as your viewers! Sorry, just being honest, hopefully, you will recover after reading all the lovely messages you're getting after the mess you have created.

Cheers!


Seriously, with a great team of writers and a more mature tone, Arrow could've been as good as Daredevil, with Oliver being written consistently and more likeable, not wasting Laurel as a lawyer and vigilante, more respectful of the source material, etc. Only a staff of hacks could waste so much potential, a real shame indeed.

 

[SpideyVille]

I feel like the bigger problem overall is the way the CW shows seem to be made in general, where scenes and moments don't get to breathe. We've seen some great scenes on The Flash, where they are very emotional because the time is given to them, but more often than not, while I'm watching off three shows, I look at the start of a scene and think "this has to be resolved in 35 seconds because a commercial is needed to kill the next 4-5 minutes before the final segment.

And more often than not, that's exactly what happens.

Daredevil, and their courtroom scenes especially, work very well because they are given the time.

 

[Primal Slayer]

From an interview with the "beloved genius":



(Now a little message for MG)

Dear Marc, if the scenes fall flat, that's because of the poor writing from you and your writers. You know, there's this little show called Daredevil, they do courtroom scenes that are well-written and entertaining, it's just a matter of will and talent, it seems you're lacking both. You should hire new writers pronto before you ruin the show even more and you're left with only shippers as your viewers! Sorry, just being honest, hopefully, you will recover after reading all the lovely messages you're getting after the mess you have created.

Cheers!


Seriously, with a great team of writers and a more mature tone, Arrow could've been as good as Daredevil, with Oliver being written consistently and more likeable, not wasting Laurel as a lawyer and vigilante, more respectful of the source material, etc. Only a staff of hacks could waste so much potential, a real shame indeed.

If they are expensive then why continue Laurel as a DA? Why make her a lawyer in the first place? This seems like the problem they had in general with the character. They write something that doesn't take so they cut it and don't try to fix it then we end up with Laurel who has no storyline all season outside of bringing her replacement back to life and having to die to propell Oliver/Diggles storylines.

 

[Slade W]

Guggenheim would do well to just stay quiet. Every time he speaks about Laurel, he reveals more to us how little he knew about using and getting the best out of her. He should stick to coming up with silly nicknames for characters and answering silly questions about Oliver and Felicity's relationship.

 

[Slade W]

I sometimes wonder what this show would be like if Flash was never created and all of the higher-ups focus and efforts were put into Arrow. I imagine the show would be in a better place and a higher standard of quality would have been maintained. Perhaps less overuse of certain characters too.

 

[DeadFan]

I don't even understand how courtroom scenes are expensive so I'm not sure I believe him. Maybe paying for extras? If he means they are expensive b/c they are already spending a lot of money on other things -- action scenes, fight scenes, computer graphics -- then fine but that doesn't really mean courtroom scenes are in and of themselves "expensive" relative to other types of scenes.

If another showrunner from another show tells me they are expensive, then okay I'll believe it. But I no longer believe ANYTHING this guy says. He says whatever he wants to say to fit his particular agenda at the moment and even then he can't keep all his distortions straight.

 

[b_boy]

LOL, if courtroom scenes were too expensive, they could easily have Laurel drop the DA, open a flower shop over the new base of operation, that was a set they already had it, fake flowers would not be expensive. That would be a homage to the comics and would get them out of this problem. Or, she could open a martial arts gym, not one where she teachs at first, but one where she employs martial arts teachers. There, on her daylight time, her job would be training in different forms of martial art, every other episode we could see a member of team arrow training, and now when we see her on BC mode, she would be much more trained because that's really her life now. Their stunt team could play the extras on the background doing action stuff. Hell, her academy could gain a reputation of having great fighters, this could catchs Lady Shiva's attention and she could come to challenge ppl there to show she still is the best fighter. After a season Laurel could start giving self defense classes to young poor girls, there she would be hearing about injustice being done to the girls and could go after the responsible as BC by night. It's not really that hard....

 

[O'Haire]

Guggenheim sounds like a goddamn idiot every time I read an interview with him.

Wish someone would put their foot down and get rid of his ass. The show has gone to complete **** ever since he took over.

 

[Mike Murdock]

People have a point when they say that it is better for Sara to stay on LOT. She will be a much more prominent and important character on that show. If she comes on Arrow, she will be muscling in on Felicity's turf, and have to wrestle with her for screen-time and importance on the show, and it is a fight that the former LOA member will lose.

I don't disagree with that. It's just that people are saying that Guggenheim will ruin Sara if he writes for her when he is, in fact, writing for her.

Dear Marc, if the scenes fall flat, that's because of the poor writing from you and your writers.

Well, you're both right. The writing is to blame, but those scenes have fallen flat. I thought Thea in court in season one was the only strong one (Ollie in court sucked, as did everything that's come since).

But one difference between the Black Canary and Daredevil is the legal aspects are critical parts of Matt Murdock. Was Dinah Laurel Lance a lawyer in the comics?

 

[batdude]

No, she wasn't. Dinah ran a flower shop.

 

[batdude]

I don't even understand how courtroom scenes are expensive so I'm not sure I believe him. Maybe paying for extras? If he means they are expensive b/c they are already spending a lot of money on other things -- action scenes, fight scenes, computer graphics -- then fine but that doesn't really mean courtroom scenes are in and of themselves "expensive" relative to other types of scenes.

If another showrunner from another show tells me they are expensive, then okay I'll believe it. But I no longer believe ANYTHING this guy says. He says whatever he wants to say to fit his particular agenda at the moment and even then he can't keep all his distortions straight.

I can't believe they couldn't build a courtroom set at the studio. that is just stupid.

 

[batdude]

The way I see it, the CW is a tiny pond, so those shows looked like big fish. Put them on any other network and they are DOA.

It's a big reason why people have said that if CBS doesn't pick up Supergirl because of poor ratings, the CW would be more than happy to, because those low ratings would be high by their standards.

I think the Flash would be a hit on CBS. not really sure about the others. Supergirl on the CW? depends on if they have to keep shooting in LA and how much they are paying Calista Flockhart.