Arrow Arrow General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 26

[Astro13Zombie]

Still wish Amell would just grow the ****ing beard.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

It's not like Green Arrow always had the beard in the comics. Isn't he clean-shaven in the New 52 comics? And at least Amell has a beard, it's just a trimmed one. And while it is true that the bearded look for the Green Arrow might be his best-known look, I would argue that so is the Robin Hood hat, which this show ditched in favor of a hood (for good reason).

 

[Fincher]

Sleeves > no sleeves.

 

[Omegabat]

No denying people enjoyed Batfleck. I did too, but his characterisation was bad. It is far from a definitive Batman. Manu's Slade will be definitive for plenty of people and will be hard to top. Along with RF, he is seen by many as this universes best villain.

If we're using the same standards that people used to judge Batfleck then Arrow Slade wouldn't even remotely be considered definite. Batfleck was savaged because of the killing and lack of proper detective work/research both of which were merely a result of Snyder's creative excesses and can easily be reversed. Arrow Slade didn't even have his basic comic backstory or motivation, Batfleck was far closer to the ideal Batman than Arrow Slade was to the ideal Deathstroke. It's just that people have much higher expectations from Batman and are well aware of him compared to Slade. His character was changed to the very core.

His feelings for Shado did come out of nowhere, but lots of other stuff was handled well. His relationship with Oliver was great, both as friends and enemies, despite what caused the fall-out. Also, the way him and Oliver were both victims and survivors of the island, with them both coming out of it very differently, both to each other and what they were before.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, none of this makes him a better Deathstroke or worse even, just story details.

Blood: "Sooner or later, we all go through a crucible. I'm guessing yours was that island. Most believe there are two types of people who go into a crucible. The ones who become stronger from the experience and survive it, and the ones who die. But there's a third type. The ones who learn to love the fire and choose to stay in their crucible because it's easier to embrace the pain when it's all you know anymore."

With Oliver, of course being the first type, and Slade being the third type.

This doesn't accurately describe the actual Deathstroke, once again it fails the same perimeters people use to judge Affleck. By that same logic Alfred's speech in the cave about good men turning cruel describes Batman.

He was shown to be a very intelligent character too, with him planting of Rochev (his Terra), him placing cameras around Oliver's mansion to spy on him (like he had Terra spy on the Titans with camera lenses). Him causing friction between Oliver and his family and team. The way he took Oliver's company from him and then killed his mother in front of him. He was very calculating and diabolical and he took almost everything from Oliver (only Merlyn caused more damage to Oliver). He also came very close to destroying the entire city. Despite his villainy, there were and are still people who feel sorry for the character and want him to be given a chance to redeem himself. There is a tragedy to the character, as we saw on the island that he had heroic traits and was loyal, in how he risked himself to save Oliver from Fryer's. He developed over the two years and was a character that showed different sides. He was far more than just a cool character with swagger.

Batfleck with prep defeated Superman and he makes his own vehicles, he cracked Luthor's encryption so he's smart too and unlike Slade we actually saw him doing most of his stuff. Rochev for instance disappeared early in to the season and suddenly showed up as Slade's puppet without any explanation.
The rest is you describing his character which I can do the same Batfleck. For instance he lost his Robin, his house, he had to resort to drinking and sex to dull the pain, he though his 2 decade war on crime had accomplished nothing etc, etc. Batfleck has characterization to chew on just like Slade, just that it's not accurate to the ideal and the same goes for Slade. The difference is that one is famous while the other isn't.

 

[Slade W]

If we're using the same standards that people used to judge Batfleck then Arrow Slade wouldn't even remotely be considered definite. Batfleck was savaged because of the killing and lack of proper detective work/research both of which were merely a result of Snyder's creative excesses and can easily be reversed. Arrow Slade didn't even have his basic comic backstory or motivation, Batfleck was far closer to the ideal Batman than Arrow Slade was to the ideal Deathstroke. It's just that people have much higher expectations from Batman and are well aware of him compared to Slade. His character was changed to the very core..

Slade's character had changes done to fit into the universe and story, but they did not go against the core of the character. At the beginning, they were both fighting for their country, and were given a serum that enhanced their abilities and changed their personalities. Slade went against the Titans out of vengeance because he blamed them for his sons death, like Slade did with Oliver. The main change on Arrow is that it was more personal, and less professional. We went from "I honour my contracts" to "I keep my promises".

Of course there will not be the same standards for both Batman and Slade and of course more changes will have to be made for Slade. Batman's history is far, far greater. If you stick to Slade's comic history too tightly, you will be much more limited in what you can do. They still put in stuff from Wolfman's comics though.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, none of this makes him a better Deathstroke or worse even, just story details..

This doesn't accurately describe the actual Deathstroke, once again it fails the same perimeters people use to judge Affleck. By that same logic Alfred's speech in the cave about good men turning cruel describes Batman.

It is part of what made him an interesting character that people cared about, and made him more than someone who was just cool and had "swagger".

Batfleck with prep defeated Superman and he makes his own vehicles, he cracked Luthor's encryption so he's smart too and unlike Slade we actually saw him doing most of his stuff. Rochev for instance disappeared early in to the season and suddenly showed up as Slade's puppet without any explanation.
The rest is you describing his character which I can do the same Batfleck. For instance he lost his Robin, his house, he had to resort to drinking and sex to dull the pain, he though his 2 decade war on crime had accomplished nothing etc, etc. Batfleck has characterization to chew on just like Slade, just that it's not accurate to the ideal and the same goes for Slade. The difference is that one is famous while the other isn't.

You have not reaffirmed your opinion that people just like Slade because he was cool and had swagger, so I take it you are backing off in that regard. At the end of the day, the response to Slade has been much better than the one Batfleck got. He is viewed as the best villain along with RF and he is amongst most peoples favourite things in this universe. Despite them messing up with Shado, people still love Slade. That is not the case with Batfleck, who is more polarising. If you mess up with certain things, but most of what you do with a character is good, then he/she will go over well. That was the case with Slade. Not everyone wants everything to be like the comics. They could have had made changes to Batman, including having him kill, and most people still would have liked him, if they were good and handled well. They were not.

 

[Omegabat]

Slade's character had changes done to fit into the universe and story, but they did not go against the core of the character. At the beginning, they were both fighting for their country, and were given a serum that enhanced their abilities and changed their personalities. Slade went against the Titans out of vengeance because he blamed them for his sons death, like Slade did with Oliver. The main change on Arrow is that it was more personal, and less professional. We went from "I honour my contracts" to "I keep my promises".

You can say the same thing about Batman, he was changed due to the requirements of the universe. It's also impossible to go against the core when the character doesn't even have the core that defines him. Deathstroke is who he is because of his family not Oliver Queen or Shado. That's his core, that's what defines him, Arrow didn't bother, they took the cheap CW route with him. Also you cant dismiss Slade's professionalism so lightly because it is a huge part of his character, his code is the single most important character trait, it's what separates him from KG Beast, Crossbones, Deadpool etc.

Of course there will not be the same standards for both Batman and Slade and of course more changes will have to be made for Slade. Batman's history is far, far greater. If you stick to Slade's comic history too tightly, you will be much more limited in what you can do. They still put in stuff from Wolfman's comics though.

Wait, so Slade should get a pass over things people would put Batman through the grinder for? that's hardly being fair.

It is part of what made him an interesting character that people cared about, and made him more than someone who was just cool and had "swagger".

But Batman also had interesting things that many people cared about, many of his supporters still use his hopelessness,anger etc to justify his actions and claim they made him interesting. You are doing the same with Slade.

You have not reaffirmed your opinion that people just like Slade because he was cool and had swagger, so I take it you are backing off in that regard. At the end of the day, the response to Slade has been much better than the one Batfleck got. He is viewed as the best villain along with RF and he is amongst most peoples favourite things in this universe. Despite them messing up with Shado, people still love Slade. That is not the case with Batfleck, who is more polarising. If you mess up with certain things, but most of what you do with a character is good, then he/she will go over well. That was the case with Slade. Not everyone wants everything to be like the comics. They could have had made changes to Batman, including having him kill, and most people still would have liked him, if they were good and handled well. They were not.

My opinion was that Arrow's Slade owes everything to Manu just like Batman owes everything to Affleck. Whatever people liked about them was down to the actors performance and the aesthetics not the writing team behind them and I stick with my assertion. Arrow Slade was a badly written character, even Manu will agree with me.
The response to Batman once again comes down to Affleck having competition in the form of Bale and Keaton. Arrow Deathstroke is the only live action version of the character. If people had been subjected to a more accurate version in some other film or show then do you really think the Arrow version would have been as praised as you think he is writing wise? mind you even a good chunk of Slade's plan against Ollie was a ripoff of TDKR Bane's plot. Manu carried Slade, just like Affleck carried Batman, now if you want to argue that Manu carried his character better than Affleck did then I might agree with you.

 

[Slade W]

You can say the same thing about Batman, he was changed due to the requirements of the universe. It's also impossible to go against the core when the character doesn't even have the core that defines him. Deathstroke is who he is because of his family not Oliver Queen or Shado. That's his core, that's what defines him, Arrow didn't bother, they took the cheap CW route with him. Also you cant dismiss Slade's professionalism so lightly because it is a huge part of his character, his code is the single most important character trait, it's what separates him from KG Beast, Crossbones, Deadpool etc.
.

I don't think the changes made to Slade went against who he is as much as the changes to Batman did. In order to get him to fight Superman, they had to make him stupid and deluded. Batman is neither of those things. He has been through much worse before, but did not turn out like he did in BVS. They should have come up with a better reason for them having to fight each other. With Slade, they messed up with his love for Shado coming out of nowhere. But him going after enemies to avenge loved ones is very much who he is. They achieved that without his family. We did not see as much of his arrogance that he had in the comics (like how he refused to cooperate with the people who captured his son, which did not end well), and with that, his irresponsibility as a result, but with what we got, it did not feel like a loss to me. Making it more personal, rather than having it be professional, was a good move IMO. It added something positive and interesting to the character.

Wait, so Slade should get a pass over things people would put Batman through the grinder for? that's hardly being fair.

Because, like I said, his history is less extensive, and of less quality. If they stuck to having things exactly like they are in the comics, they would be more limited.

But Batman also had interesting things that many people cared about, many of his supporters still use his hopelessness,anger etc to justify his actions and claim they made him interesting. You are doing the same with Slade..

A much larger percentage of Arrow viewers praised and were happy with Slade than BVS viewers did with Batfleck. From the Arrow watchers, there is a much smaller percentage of people complaining than there was with BVS viewers and Batfleck.

My opinion was that Arrow's Slade owes everything to Manu just like Batman owes everything to Affleck. Whatever people liked about them was down to the actors performance and the aesthetics not the writing team behind them and I stick with my assertion. Arrow Slade was a badly written character, even Manu will agree with me.
The response to Batman once again comes down to Affleck having competition in the form of Bale and Keaton. Arrow Deathstroke is the only live action version of the character. If people had been subjected to a more accurate version in some other film or show then do you really think the Arrow version would have been as praised as you think he is writing wise? mind you even a good chunk of Slade's plan against Ollie was a ripoff of TDKR Bane's plot. Manu carried Slade, just like Affleck carried Batman, now if you want to argue that Manu carried his character better than Affleck did then I might agree with you.

The main thing that was badly written with Slade was his love for Shado. The Shado thing was and is still mocked, but nowhere near as much as Batfleck is with "Martha" and the "1%" speech, among other things. That is down to both BVS having a much larger audience, and also Batfleck having less qualities to redeem him. With Slade, apart from his love from Shado, everything else was good/great. That was not the case with Batfleck. Olicity gets mocked a lot now, and that is because there is not much quality there and not many redeeming qualities in their relationship. Bad things can be overlooked and forgotten about if most things are good.

Even if Slade was used on another live-action show or movie, I still think he would have been mostly praised, because if something is good, then it is good. I don't think most people that watch are comic fans or care about comic accuracy.

 

[Omegabat]

I don't think the changes made to Slade went against who he is as much as the changes to Batman did. In order to get him to fight Superman, they had to make him stupid and deluded. Batman is neither of those things. He has been through much worse before, but did not turn out like he did in BVS. They should have come up with a better reason for them having to fight each other. With Slade, they messed up with his love for Shado coming out of nowhere. But him going after enemies to avenge loved ones is very much who he is. They achieved that without his family. We did not see as much of his arrogance that he had in the comics (like how he refused to cooperate with the people who captured his son, which did not end well), and with that, his irresponsibility as a result, but with what we got, it did not feel like a loss to me. Making it more personal, rather than having it be professional, was a good move IMO. It added something positive and interesting to the character.

Batman was effectively the same character, same backstory, same history etc, like I said the director merely got carried away in making him edgy. Slade literally had his history and motivation turned inside out. Batman is paranoid and insecure, he's known for not trusting people more powerful than him unless they're under his direct control. That's not on Snyder, yes he got carried away but he didn't invent those traits.
Affleck's Batman was definitely more closer to the source material compared to Deathstroke and Deathstroke's professionalism is a huge and interesting part of his character. Making it personal just makes him Bane or Venom and for a character like Green Arrow of all people. Still Arrow was obviously going for those type of villain characterizations in Slade, they did the same with Zoom over in Flash.

Because, like I said, his history is less extensive, and of less quality. If they stuck to having things exactly like they are in the comics, they would be more limited.

That still doesn't change anything, Arrow used a text book love triangle, hardly making any effort.

A much larger percentage of Arrow viewers praised and were happy with Slade than BVS viewers did with Batfleck. From the Arrow watchers, there is a much smaller percentage of people complaining than there was with BVS viewers and Batfleck.

Proof please, I want to see this percentage.

The main thing that was badly written with Slade was his love for Shado. The Shado thing was and is still mocked, but nowhere near as much as Batfleck is with "Martha" and the "1%" speech, among other things. That is down to both BVS having a much larger audience, and also Batfleck having less qualities to redeem him. With Slade, apart from his love from Shado, everything else was good/great. That was not the case with Batfleck. Olicity gets mocked a lot now, and that is because there is not much quality there and not many redeeming qualities in their relationship. Bad things can be overlooked and forgotten about if most things are good.

Slade's entire character was based on his love for Shado, every single decision was made for her, his pursuit was single minded. He really was no different from Batfleck. Both were mad, Slade had an excuse until he revealed that Mirakuru didn't make him hate Ollie and then he continued crying about Shado. The actor got fed up with that non sense and burned his bridges.

Even if Slade was used on another live-action show or movie, I still think he would have been mostly praised, because if something is good, then it is good. I don't think most people that watch are comic fans or care about comic accuracy.

If this is true then why are arguing over Batfleck's accuracy?

 

[Slade W]

Batman was effectively the same character, same backstory, same history etc, like I said the director merely got carried away in making him edgy. Slade literally had his history and motivation turned inside out. Batman is paranoid and insecure, he's known for not trusting people more powerful than him unless they're under his direct control. That's not on Snyder, yes he got carried away but he didn't invent those traits.
Affleck's Batman was definitely more closer to the source material compared to Deathstroke and Deathstroke's professionalism is a huge and interesting part of his character. Making it personal just makes him Bane or Venom and for a character like Green Arrow of all people. Still Arrow was obviously going for those type of villain characterizations in Slade, they did the same with Zoom over in Flash.

The best versions of Batman are not as irrational or as impetuous as he was in the movie. With even a little bit of research, he could have found out that Superman was not trying to hurt people. He would not abandon his mission for such poor reasons like Batfleck did either. Lex's plan was not particularly great, yet he was still able to manipulate him very easily. Changing the death that motivates him from his son to a woman he loves is not turning his history and motivation inside out. Deathstroke has a rivalry with Green Arrow in the comics that is personal too, due to him sticking an Arrow in his eye. It is not something new to him or that he would not do.

That still doesn't change anything, Arrow used a text book love triangle, hardly making any effort.

True. It did not turn out badly though, tbf to them. He is still considered the best villain in this universe along with RF.

Proof please, I want to see this percentage..

I do not care enough to put in the effort to conduct such research. I hardly have to anyway. Slade is loved by Arrow viewers. How often do you see people complain about Slade? Even most of the people who complain about Shado still enjoyed him. Surely not even you, who hates the show yet mainly posts here, would not deny that he is loved by most fans. Batfleck, on the other hand, has been polarising.

Slade's entire character was based on his love for Shado, every single decision was made for her, his pursuit was single minded. He really was no different from Batfleck. Both were mad, Slade had an excuse until he revealed that Mirakuru didn't make him hate Ollie and then he continued crying about Shado. The actor got fed up with that non sense and burned his bridges..

Slade at least questioned Oliver if what Ivo was saying was true or not, regarding him choosing Shado over Sara. Oliver struggling and hesitating to answer the question, due to him feeling guilt over Shado's death, and refusing to say that Ivo was lying when accusing him of choosing Sara, after Ivo told Oliver to do so "tell him I'm lying Oliver, say it", eventually answering only with a feeble "I can explain", with a nervous and guilty look on his face and still not denying that he choose to save Sara, made Slade believe it was true. Slade then attacked him in rage, ending their friendship, as he did not think he could trust him anymore, due to him not giving a straight answer. With a bit of research, Batman could have found out that Superman was not a villain or a danger. His reason for giving up on trying to kill Superman was bad too.

Slade being irrational isn't new either. Him putting more of the blame on the Titans, rather than H.I.V.E., was irrational. He still got revenge on H.I.V.E., killing some of their members at an auction and taking their money, like how he got revenge on Ivo by cutting off his hand, but like he did with the Titans, he put most of the blame on Oliver, despite him being the far, far less guilty party. At least with Oliver, he could have felt a sense of betrayal, as they were close friends, or "brothers", as Slade put it. The Titans were not close to Slade at all.

The best versions of Batman, on the other hand, are known for being rational, and for putting a lot of thought into things before acting.

If this is true then why are arguing over Batfleck's accuracy?

The changes made to Slade were mostly good, hence the good reception, whereas the changes made to Batfleck were not, hence the polarising reception. Making changes is always risky with characters, especially ones that were around for so long. The changes made with Slade do not go against what the character is about as much as the changes to Batman did.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Arrow producers have big plans for Felicity Smoak:

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/09/09/spoiler-room-quantico-blacklist-arrow

Emily Bett Rickards has been training a lot lately. Does it mean Felicity will be involved in more action scenes in Arrow season 5? — Itakha

At first, Felicity will be dealing with the fallout of Havenrock’s destruction. “In the first five episodes, we face head-on the decision that Felicity made,” EP Marc Guggenheim says. “We are most definitely not ignoring it.” Following that, though, Guggenheim cryptically teases what could be Felicity jumping in on the action. “We’re positioning her to do something in the second half of the year that is really, really key, and that isn’t about her relationship with Oliver or even necessarily her father or her mother. It’s really new territory for her, and we’ve very excited about it. Some big things are going to happen with Felicity.”

 

[TheRedWraith]

Oh I hope they aren't teasing what I think they are, because this sounds a lot like it is her becoming BC which would be Deplorable and probably the biggest act of disrespect to the character perpetrated yet, I don't even know how they could top this as killing her off in such a callous way after giving her nothing at all to do only to replace her with their own original character (I am aware that felicity smoak is a person in the DCU but seeing as they have nothing in common she is effectively their unoriginal original character/Chloe Sullivan 2.0/Blonde snarky super hacker with a crush on the hero) seems like the ultimate act of disrespect.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

Oh I hope they aren't teasing what I think they are, because this sounds a lot like it is her becoming BC which would be Deplorable and probably the biggest act of disrespect to the character perpetrated yet, I don't even know how they could top this as killing her off in such a callous way after giving her nothing at all to do only to replace her with their own original character (I am aware that felicity smoak is a person in the DCU but seeing as they have nothing in common she is effectively their unoriginal original character/Chloe Sullivan 2.0/Blonde snarky super hacker with a crush on the hero) seems like the ultimate act of disrespect.

If that happens I'll snail mail a letter to Berlanti pleading him to yank the show off the air.

 

[Omegabat]

The best versions of Batman are not as irrational or as impetuous as he was in the movie. With even a little bit of research, he could have found out that Superman was not trying to hurt people. He would not abandon his mission for such poor reasons like Batfleck did either. Lex's plan was not particularly great, yet he was still able to manipulate him very easily. Changing the death that motivates him from his son to a woman he loves is not turning his history and motivation inside out. Deathstroke has a rivalry with Green Arrow in the comics that is personal too, due to him sticking an Arrow in his eye. It is not something new to him or that he would not do.

Superman never hurt the people in the comics either, didn't stop Bruce from having contingencies for him and once you take in to account that he doesn't put anywhere as much effort on keeping his villains in Arkham then yeah you do see irrationality.
He did not love Shado, that was just a random insert, this doesn't not remotely compare to an actual son.
As for their rivalry in comics, there was a rivalry, a very short one that only Judd Winick wrote about for a mere 5 issues. Green Arrow is an insignificant part of Slade's larger history, it's just that the lack of quality rogues has certain people constantly bring up Deathstroke. Batman has 10 times the history with Darkseid and Lex Luthor in more notable runs by bigger writers, yet they dont count as his villains do they?

True. It did not turn out badly though, tbf to them. He is still considered the best villain in this universe along with RF.

Batman and Wonder Woman are considered the best heroes of their universe.

I do not care enough to put in the effort to conduct such research. I hardly have to anyway. Slade is loved by Arrow viewers. How often do you see people complain about Slade? Even most of the people who complain about Shado still enjoyed him. Surely not even you, who hates the show yet mainly posts here, would not deny that he is loved by most fans. Batfleck, on the other hand, has been polarising.

Internet whining is hardly representative of anything. I would consider Manu Bennet attacking Arrow to be more significant than the rage of a thousand fanboys.

Slade at least questioned Oliver if what Ivo was saying was true or not, regarding him choosing Shado over Sara. Oliver struggling and hesitating to answer the question, due to him feeling guilt over Shado's death, and refusing to say that Ivo was lying when accusing him of choosing Sara, after Ivo told Oliver to do so "tell him I'm lying Oliver, say it", eventually answering only with a feeble "I can explain", with a nervous and guilty look on his face and still not denying that he choose to save Sara, made Slade believe it was true. Slade then attacked him in rage, ending their friendship, as he did not think he could trust him anymore, due to him not giving a straight answer. With a bit of research, Batman could have found out that Superman was not a villain or a danger. His reason for giving up on trying to kill Superman was bad too.

DOJ's problem wasn't Batman's lack of research in to Superman, the movie was hammering the idea that this Batman has completely fallen. Alfred constantly questioned his position. The film was aware, the problem starts with Lex Luthor forcing them to fight for his own reasons out of nowhere and the subsequent Martha moment. Batman acknowledged that Superman may not be a threat today but there was no guarantee for the future "not today, but you've seen what promises were worth, how many good guys are left?" Lex Luthor messed up the movie and guess what no one considers that character good. Batman's characterization was in line just excessive, Snyder only had to tone it down instead of kicking up a notch.

Slade being irrational isn't new either. Him putting more of the blame on the Titans, rather than H.I.V.E., was irrational. He still got revenge on H.I.V.E., killing some of their members at an auction and taking their money, like how he got revenge on Ivo by cutting off his hand, but like he did with the Titans, he put most of the blame on Oliver, despite him being the far, far less guilty party. At least with Oliver, he could have felt a sense of betrayal, as they were close friends, or "brothers", as Slade put it. The Titans were not close to Slade at all.

Slade already had his revenge on H.I.V.E some time prior to JC, he killed some of their members and stole promethium which he cast on to his sword and made it look like all the criminals bidding for the promethium had killed themselves. He did however have a professional code that obligated him to complete Grant's contract, that code makes him interesting as well as unique and we didn't see that on Arrow, by the way Beware the Batman version did have that. Since he had his revenge on H.I.V.E therefore he wasn't irrational.

The best versions of Batman, on the other hand, are known for being rational, and for putting a lot of thought into things before acting.

Not really, Fugitive & Murderer, Knightfall, events after the deaths of Jason and Damian, creation of Brother Eye and later activating it after Terry from the future expressly told him not to would disprove that claim

The changes made to Slade were mostly good, hence the good reception, whereas the changes made to Batfleck were not, hence the polarising reception. Making changes is always risky with characters, especially ones that were around for so long. The changes made with Slade do not go against what the character is about as much as the changes to Batman did.

Batman's character wasn't rewritten, Slade's was, liking one or the other is different from accuracy. I liked Slade better than Batfleck too but that version of Deathstroke cant really claim much in the way of accuracy.

 

[Slade W]

Superman never hurt the people in the comics either, didn't stop Bruce from having contingencies for him and once you take in to account that he doesn't put anywhere as much effort on keeping his villains in Arkham then yeah you do see irrationality.
He did not love Shado, that was just a random insert, this doesn't not remotely compare to an actual son.
As for their rivalry in comics, there was a rivalry, a very short one that only Judd Winick wrote about for a mere 5 issues. Green Arrow is an insignificant part of Slade's larger history, it's just that the lack of quality rogues has certain people constantly bring up Deathstroke. Batman has 10 times the history with Darkseid and Lex Luthor in more notable runs by bigger writers, yet they dont count as his villains do they?.

He had contingencies, but he did not use them as he did not have proof that Superman was bad. Batman attacked Superman in DOJ without proof. Slade did love Shado. Just because it was handled badly and not revealed until late on does not mean that he didn't.

His rivalry with GA is one that stuck and why he has been brought back against Green Arrow in the comics and on Arrow. It is hard to say that it is insignificant, as Slades history is inconsistent in terms of quality. Identity Crisis is a big part of it. Batman has much more villains and history with them, and that is why Lex and Darkseid are not as significant to him as GA is to DS.

Batman and Wonder Woman are considered the best heroes of their universe..

The bar is not as high in the DCEU as it is in the Arrowverse. The first two seasons of Arrow and the 1st season of The Flash were very good. Being top of the food chain in the Arrowverse is more significant than being the best in the DCEU.

Internet whining is hardly representative of anything. I would consider Manu Bennet attacking Arrow to be more significant than the rage of a thousand fanboys..

Shows and movies are made for fans, not just Manu Bennett. Deathstroke went over well with most fans. It is hard to argue with that. Batfleck did not, and was more polarising.

DOJ's problem wasn't Batman's lack of research in to Superman, the movie was hammering the idea that this Batman has completely fallen. Alfred constantly questioned his position. The film was aware, the problem starts with Lex Luthor forcing them to fight for his own reasons out of nowhere and the subsequent Martha moment. Batman acknowledged that Superman may not be a threat today but there was no guarantee for the future "not today, but you've seen what promises were worth, how many good guys are left?" Lex Luthor messed up the movie and guess what no one considers that character good. Batman's characterization was in line just excessive, Snyder only had to tone it down instead of kicking up a notch..

Batmans lack of research made him look stupid. Him preparing for something due to his paranoia is one thing, but him acting and trying to kill someone because of it is something else. Him being made a killer goes against him far more than anything Arrow did with Slade.

People are aware of what DOJ was going for, regarding Batman being broken down. A lot of comic fans did not accept the way he was behaving, perhaps because he was through worse in the comics, but did not behave like he did in DOJ. Perhaps if what he went through was shown more, it would have been different. If Batman is going to be made into a killer, or someone who brands people, knowing that it means death for them, the reasons for it have to be convincing. They were not.

Slade already had his revenge on H.I.V.E some time prior to JC, he killed some of their members and stole promethium which he cast on to his sword and made it look like all the criminals bidding for the promethium had killed themselves. He did however have a professional code that obligated him to complete Grant's contract, that code makes him interesting as well as unique and we didn't see that on Arrow, by the way Beware the Batman version did have that. Since he had his revenge on H.I.V.E therefore he wasn't irrational..

I agree the professional code is interesting and I like it. But, he is not a robot. If certain things happen to him, he will make it personal, like he did with GA, regarding the Arrow in his eye in Identity crisis. Despite him getting revenge on H.I.V.E., he still put most blame on the Titans, despite them being by far the least guilty party. Grant and H.I.V.E. were far more at fault. That is irrational.

Not really, Fugitive & Murderer, Knightfall, events after the deaths of Jason and Damian, creation of Brother Eye and later activating it after Terry from the future expressly told him not to would disprove that claim.

Fair enough, but I do not think people reacted to all of them anywhere near as negatively as they did Batfleck. The irrationality displayed by Batman in those comics must have felt more natural for the character than what we got in DOJ.

Batman's character wasn't rewritten, Slade's was, liking one or the other is different from accuracy. I liked Slade better than Batfleck too but that version of Deathstroke cant really claim much in the way of accuracy.

Batman was made into a murderer, someone who acts impulsively and is very easily manipulated, and someone who has given up. That goes against a lot of what Batman stands for.

Slade served his country like in the comics, received a serum that gave him enhanced abilities, and also changed his personality like in the comics, had a close relationship with and fought alongside Wintergreen like in the comics (he was the Godfather of his son), lost an eye, motivated by a dead loved one and getting vengeance for them.

After receiving the serum in the comics and it causing changes to his personality, Slade went onto become a mercenary. The same happened on Arrow, with him becoming a mercenary after he left the island. Amanda Waller on Arrow said the following, regarding Slade

"There's a new player we've been tracking, a mercenary. He's left a trail of bodies from Macau to Istanbul to Lisbon. A trail that leads right here to Starling. We've been calling him Deathstroke"

They both had someone become close to their enemy, only to betray them. In the comics, Slade had Terra become a trusted member of the Teen Titans, so that she could spy on them and betray them to help fulfil Slade's plan. On Arrow, Slade had Isabel Rochev become someone that Oliver could trust, so much so that he put her in charge of his company in a moment of crisis, which he later regretted as she took it from him, which was Slade's plan all along.

In the comics, Slade had Terra wear lenses that had cameras in them, so that he could spy on the Titans, to learn their habits and weakness. Once he figured them out, he then set traps and captured them. On Arrow, Slade placed cameras throughout Oliver's mansion, so that he could spy on him.

Honour and word were big to him on Arrow too, like in the comcis. In the comics, he always said something along the line of "I always honour my contracts". On Arrow, in what was a clear reference to that, he always said "I keep my promises". He felt that he was honouring Shado by doing what he was doing. On the island, he was also very loyal to Oliver. He went back to rescue him from Fryers when he could have left him to die, and he put himself at great risk in doing so.

They were both patient and waited until the right time to strike. In the comics, Slade had Terra spy on the Titans, and only when he knew their habits and weaknesses, did he take action. On Arrow, Slade waited until he was sure of his victory over Oliver, before revealing that he was still alive to Oliver. Once he knew the right pieces were in place, he made his move, rather than confronting Oliver right away.

Of course there were changes made, including to some of the things that were taken from the comics, like Wintergreen betraying him, but that does not negate all that they took from the comics, regarding Slade. They took a lot.

 

[Omegabat]

He had contingencies, but he did not use them as he did not have proof that Superman was bad. Batman attacked Superman in DOJ without proof. Slade did love Shado. Just because it was handled badly and not revealed until late on does not mean that he didn't.

The bombing convinced him that Superman needed to be taken out before more lives were lost. BvS was badly handled but the elements were there, Slade and Shado literally came out of nowhere.

His rivalry with GA is one that stuck and why he has been brought back against Green Arrow in the comics and on Arrow. It is hard to say that it is insignificant, as Slades history is inconsistent in terms of quality. Identity Crisis is a big part of it. Batman has much more villains and history with them, and that is why Lex and Darkseid are not as significant to him as GA is to DS.

It didn't stick, Winick wrote 2 different arcs spread over 5-6 issues which in turn were spread over a near 50 issue run. This is absolutely nothing, no one ever bothered with GA/DS again properly until Arrow and by the looks of it a lot of the things that made it to Arrow were merely a test run for the DCEU. It is only significant because GA doesn't have much of a rogues gallery. Vandal Savage recently was the villain of 2 Superman events back to back lasting through an entire year spread over all Superman books. That's significant and most people still dont consider him a Superman villain. Identity Crisis itself featured Deathstroke solely in a fight scene that most serious fans laugh at.
Yes Percy wrote an arc but that story didn't push their rivalry, it was just another one of Slade's many encounters with heroes. Futures End is the only other story after Winick that angled Deathstroke and Green Arrow but it has already been swept under the rug.

The bar is not as high in the DCEU as it is in the Arrowverse. The first two seasons of Arrow and the 1st season of The Flash were very good. Being top of the food chain in the Arrowverse is more significant than being the best in the DCEU.

DCEU reaches out to a lot more people in terms of viewership than CW shows, that's fact and right now there's a lot of hunger for DC characters on film. This year at Comic Con it was the films that carried DC, the tv show slate might as well not have existed. Luke Cage was the only super hero show with hype behind it. DC shows lie at the absolute bottom when it comes to tv both in terms of viewership and quality which doesn't come as a surprise as they're mostly on CW, they're no match for the best on tv or even Marvel's Netflix shows.

Shows and movies are made for fans, not just Manu Bennett. Deathstroke went over well with most fans. It is hard to argue with that. Batfleck did not, and was more polarising.

What do you think studio executives would care about most, fan reaction or Ben Affleck walking out and tearing them a new one?

Batmans lack of research made him look stupid. Him preparing for something due to his paranoia is one thing, but him acting and trying to kill someone because of it is something else. Him being made a killer goes against him far more than anything Arrow did with Slade.

Slade being an unprofessional also goes against his character as much as Batman being a killer.

People are aware of what DOJ was going for, regarding Batman being broken down. A lot of comic fans did not accept the way he was behaving, perhaps because he was through worse in the comics, but did not behave like he did in DOJ. Perhaps if what he went through was shown more, it would have been different. If Batman is going to be made into a killer, or someone who brands people, knowing that it means death for them, the reasons for it have to be convincing. They were not.

True

I agree the professional code is interesting and I like it. But, he is not a robot. If certain things happen to him, he will make it personal, like he did with GA, regarding the Arrow in his eye in Identity crisis. Despite him getting revenge on H.I.V.E., he still put most blame on the Titans, despite them being by far the least guilty party. Grant and H.I.V.E. were far more at fault. That is irrational.

That was also completely out of character, he had a job that involved attacking super heroes, then he gets attacked in return and decides to make it personal with one of them? it was a complete violation of character and anyone, ANYONE could have done what GA did. Real enmities have a solid foundation, you cant swap Batman out of his rivalry with Joker for instance.
As for Grant and H.I.V.E it was pride derived from his professional code not irrationality.

Fair enough, but I do not think people reacted to all of them anywhere near as negatively as they did Batfleck. The irrationality displayed by Batman in those comics must have felt more natural for the character than what we got in DOJ.

Yeah.

Batman was made into a murderer, someone who acts impulsively and is very easily manipulated, and someone who has given up. That goes against a lot of what Batman stands for.

Yes

Slade served his country like in the comics, received a serum that gave him enhanced abilities, and also changed his personality like in the comics, had a close relationship with and fought alongside Wintergreen like in the comics (he was the Godfather of his son), lost an eye, motivated by a dead loved one and getting vengeance for them.

After receiving the serum in the comics and it causing changes to his personality, Slade went onto become a mercenary. The same happened on Arrow, with him becoming a mercenary after he left the island. Amanda Waller on Arrow said the following, regarding Slade

"There's a new player we've been tracking, a mercenary. He's left a trail of bodies from Macau to Istanbul to Lisbon. A trail that leads right here to Starling. We've been calling him Deathstroke"

They both had someone become close to their enemy, only to betray them. In the comics, Slade had Terra become a trusted member of the Teen Titans, so that she could spy on them and betray them to help fulfil Slade's plan. On Arrow, Slade had Isabel Rochev become someone that Oliver could trust, so much so that he put her in charge of his company in a moment of crisis, which he later regretted as she took it from him, which was Slade's plan all along.

In the comics, Slade had Terra wear lenses that had cameras in them, so that he could spy on the Titans, to learn their habits and weakness. Once he figured them out, he then set traps and captured them. On Arrow, Slade placed cameras throughout Oliver's mansion, so that he could spy on him.

Honour and word were big to him on Arrow too, like in the comcis. In the comics, he always said something along the line of "I always honour my contracts". On Arrow, in what was a clear reference to that, he always said "I keep my promises". He felt that he was honouring Shado by doing what he was doing. On the island, he was also very loyal to Oliver. He went back to rescue him from Fryers when he could have left him to die, and he put himself at great risk in doing so.

They were both patient and waited until the right time to strike. In the comics, Slade had Terra spy on the Titans, and only when he knew their habits and weaknesses, did he take action. On Arrow, Slade waited until he was sure of his victory over Oliver, before revealing that he was still alive to Oliver. Once he knew the right pieces were in place, he made his move, rather than confronting Oliver right away.

Of course there were changes made, including to some of the things that were taken from the comics, like Wintergreen betraying him, but that does not negate all that they took from the comics, regarding Slade. They took a lot.

But the entire character was rewritten to fit one specific purpose, fight Arrow which I dont mind but they had a chance to move on in season 3 but they didn't. He lost his eye to Arrow, he became a merc only to fight Arrow, he planted Isabel on Arrow. The tradeoff here is that he's being made less interesting and less complex. BvS did the same, they fixated Batman's entire character on Superman with the same effect.

 

[Slade W]

The bombing convinced him that Superman needed to be taken out before more lives were lost. BvS was badly handled but the elements were there, Slade and Shado literally came out of nowhere..

Despite being sloppily handled, it was established that he did care for her. He said this to her, shortly before she was killed by Ivo. The idea was right, but the execution was poor. Like in the comics, the root of Slades desire for vengeance was the death of a loved one.

Surely Batman could have found another way to deal with Superman, other than killing him, and have made sure he was the real villain before acting.

It didn't stick, Winick wrote 2 different arcs spread over 5-6 issues which in turn were spread over a near 50 issue run. This is absolutely nothing, no one ever bothered with GA/DS again properly until Arrow and by the looks of it a lot of the things that made it to Arrow were merely a test run for the DCEU. It is only significant because GA doesn't have much of a rogues gallery. Vandal Savage recently was the villain of 2 Superman events back to back lasting through an entire year spread over all Superman books. That's significant and most people still dont consider him a Superman villain. Identity Crisis itself featured Deathstroke solely in a fight scene that most serious fans laugh at.
Yes Percy wrote an arc but that story didn't push their rivalry, it was just another one of Slade's many encounters with heroes. Futures End is the only other story after Winick that angled Deathstroke and Green Arrow but it has already been swept under the rug..

DS featured in 10 issues in that run, which is a lot. I wouldn't call it nothing and I wouldn't say that it was only significant because GA does not have much of a rogues gallery. I would say that it was significant because it is one of the few times that DS was somewhat liked when not coming into conflict with the Titans. His battles with GA may not have been spectacular, but there was potential there. That has been the case with DS quite a few times. Few things go over well every now and then, but I would call a lot of it wasted potential. Being constantly moved around and them being undecided whether DS should be an anti-hero or villain has not helped matters. The Teen Titans cartoon (they made a lot of changes) and Arrow have been some of the few times that I think Slade was used very well (it seems with Priest too ATM, and long may that continue). If he ever goes back to being a villain, I hope that he will be put up against the Titans, and that their conflict will be taken to the next level, with them both benefitting from this. If not the Titans, then GA would be my 2nd choice.

I agree that Identity Crisis was silly. The fight made the heroes look stupid, rather than make DS look as formidable as he should have been. As a DS fan, I wish I could say that such a story was an insignificant part of his history, but it isn't. Him being able to cause so many problems for all those heroes by himself is a very big deal for DS. Taking on all those JL members by himself is no mean feat, despite them losing the ability to think. Again, wasted potential. A good idea, but the full potential was not extracted.

Again, Superman, like Batman, has had many great battles with villain who have become ingrained in his legacy, and as a result, it is harder for new villains to muscle in on the established villains territory. That has not been the case with GA or DS, which is why their interactions stand out.

DCEU reaches out to a lot more people in terms of viewership than CW shows, that's fact and right now there's a lot of hunger for DC characters on film. This year at Comic Con it was the films that carried DC, the tv show slate might as well not have existed. Luke Cage was the only super hero show with hype behind it. DC shows lie at the absolute bottom when it comes to tv both in terms of viewership and quality which doesn't come as a surprise as they're mostly on CW, they're no match for the best on tv or even Marvel's Netflix shows..

The DC movies are new and feature some of the biggest names in comics and pop culture, so of course there will be more buzz for them over a show starring Green Arrow in its 4th season (especially after its worst season). Despite this, the show still has a big turnout at comic con and boasts a lot of loyal fans. Luke Cage is new too.

At their peak, Arrow and Flash were the best superhero shows on TV. Only the Netflix shows were better, and there is no shame in that, as they are better than most of the movies too. Arrow and Flash at their best received mostly praise from their viewers. That was never the case with the DCEU, not even with MOS.

What do you think studio executives would care about most, fan reaction or Ben Affleck walking out and tearing them a new one?.

That would depend on the situation.

Slade being an unprofessional also goes against his character as much as Batman being a killer..

Did Slade every make a speech about why he should never make things personal, like Batman did regarding killing someone, as if he could justify killing one person, he could do it again and again?

That was also completely out of character, he had a job that involved attacking super heroes, then he gets attacked in return and decides to make it personal with one of them? it was a complete violation of character and anyone, ANYONE could have done what GA did. Real enmities have a solid foundation, you cant swap Batman out of his rivalry with Joker for instance.
As for Grant and H.I.V.E it was pride derived from his professional code not irrationality..

I don't think that he should not allow things to get personal, no matter what. He is not a robot. A character that remains professional no matter what, is limited in a way. There should be some things that allow him to make it personal. Something cheeky and disrespectful, like what GA did to him, is an understandable reason for him to lose it IMO. Same with him losing a loved one due to the betrayal of someone he considers a brother.

He should have still wanted to cause H.I.V.E. more problems. They were much more at fault than the Titans.

Batmans rivalry with Joker is very special. It has many different layers to it. They are the opposite in almost every way. Order vs chaos. Life has meaning, but you have to fight for it vs life is meaninglesness. The way they both reacted differently to personal tragedies. They are similar in some ways, such as their resourcefulness, their high level of intelligence, and of course, their obsessive nature. It is a unique rivalry. If every rivalry was judged by that standard, not many would come out looking well, including some of the most memorable. If all were judged by that standard, Slade would have none.

But the entire character was rewritten to fit one specific purpose, fight Arrow which I dont mind but they had a chance to move on in season 3 but they didn't. He lost his eye to Arrow, he became a merc only to fight Arrow, he planted Isabel on Arrow. The tradeoff here is that he's being made less interesting and less complex. BvS did the same, they fixated Batman's entire character on Superman with the same effect.

I think getting to see more of the heroic side of Slade in his early days, and his relationship and bond with Oliver and how it went downhill was a good trade for losing some other traits from the comics. I do not think what Batman gained in place of the traits that he lost were worth it.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Don’t expect Diggle to be a fan of the new heroes coming to ‘Arrow’ season 5:

http://tvline.com/2016/09/14/supernatural-season-12-spoilers-castiel/

Any teases on where we will find Arrow‘s John Diggle, mentally and emotionally, at the start of the season? —PJ

“He’s stationed in Chechnya,” executive producer Wendy Mericle reveals. “He’s still in the military, and he’s very much a man without a state. He’s away from his family, and he’s away from the team, so he’s away from that family. He’s trying to figure out how he can get that sense of himself back after killing his brother.” Once Dig does come back to Star City, he won’t be a fan of Oliver’s ragtag new superfriends. “He’s not going to love all these little upstarts, trying to take over his role,” Mericle says. “But he’ll adjust. He’s going to find some common ground with Wild Dog, and that will help take the sting out of it.”

 

[Crossvale]

Don’t expect Diggle to be a fan of the new heroes coming to ‘Arrow’ season 5:

Boo, who cares what the pointless character think

 

[Blitzkrieg]

New ‘Arrow’ Season 5 trailer featuring Cody Rhodes, Wild Dog & Artemis:

[YT]QAdPIlkE_Cg[/YT]

 

[metaphysician]

Boo, who cares what the pointless character think

Yeah, being the most important supporting cast from season 1 episode 1, who cares what he thinks? Guy doesn't matter.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

New ‘Arrow’ Season 5 trailer featuring Cody Rhodes, Wild Dog & Artemis:

[YT]QAdPIlkE_Cg[/YT]

Whoa, was Artemis side-by-side with Prometheus?

Wild Dog looks fantastic; Artemis looks okay. Sort of got the whole face paint thing from S1 instead of a mask, I guess. I'm sure the look will grow on me (at least they didn't go with the midriff-baring look).

 

[Prison Mike]

Boo, who cares what the pointless character think

Exactly! Who cares what Felicity thinks...

 

[rashad]

New ‘Arrow’ Season 5 trailer featuring Cody Rhodes, Wild Dog & Artemis:

[YT]QAdPIlkE_Cg[/YT]

Looks very promising. Certain scenes gave me Season 1/2 vibes.

 

[Crossvale]

Yeah, being the most important supporting cast from season 1 episode 1, who cares what he thinks? Guy doesn't matter.

Oh Nostalgia, yummy!

 

[LongbowHunter]

Whoa, was Artemis side-by-side with Prometheus?

Wild Dog looks fantastic; Artemis looks okay. Sort of got the whole face paint thing from S1 instead of a mask, I guess. I'm sure the look will grow on me (at least they didn't go with the midriff-baring look).

Nah she was walking with Ragman. You can tell those two apart by the fact that Ragman has no Sword and quiver and he wears a patchy trenchcoat, not a leather-jacket a la Ollie-S1.