Arrow Arrow Season 2 Episode 13 "Heir to the Demon" Rate/Review thread

[Nathan]

I still find it hilarious that she immediately went for the bathrobe when they got back. It's like Laurel just gave up for the day. She was ***ing done.

 

[iamlegend]

That new trailer....



That could really work. Not a bad idea.

Honestly, you don't even have to do that though. All you would need is a simple quick explanation. Just a single line such as "The detective is out in space doing this mission so this is the perfect time to strike" would be enough IMO.

We know he exists in this universe in the minds of the writers, since they made comments regarding their desire to use Batman and Nightwing.

Us not hearing about him will be the problem. They're creating circumstances in which Batman should naturally/logically be there for. That's the problem. If those circumstances weren't there, that's when it wouldn't be an issue at all that we don't hear about him.

No, no they're not.

This is not the comics. Maybe in this continuity, Batman (if he even exists), hasn't had a run in with Ra's or his cronies. This is a blank slate universe.

I wish they'd have just mentioned Gotham getting blown up in the pilot. I like Batman, but man am I tired of hearing about Batman on Arrow. There are a thousand other forms of Batman media out there. Guy doesn't have to be in everything.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

Why didn't Walter warn Moira that Felicity was poking her nose into her business? And why did Felicity approach Moira (the woman she does not trust) with the information she had obtained without a plan or backup? Moira could have easily had her killed before she breathed a word to Oliver. She also could have just lied. I don't doubt that she could have fooled Felicity (if only for a short time).

Felicity admitted she had no plan and that is was foolish.

Sara and Nyssa? Hot couple, zero chemistry. Kristina Law was a serviceable actress (at best). I liked her costume, though.

Fair enough, I'd have to see more of them together and in a circumstance similar to when they were lovers. I felt some chemistry when they kissed. Or was it biology ?

Why did Oliver stand there and let Nyssa approach Sara when she was clearly armed? (I laughed at how nonchalant he was about their relationship. He barely reacted when they kissed.)

He trusted his skills enough to know when he absolutely had to take the shot to save someones life. They kissed and it all made sense to him at that moment, I'm sure underneath his mask he raised an eyebrow.

Why the hell did Nyssa let Sara go? At what point, between kidnapping her mother and trying to kill her "boyfriend", did she suddenly start caring about what Sara wanted?

I think it was when she saw Sara would rather take poison and die than return with Nyssa ? If a girl would rather take poison than be with you you should probably let it go.

I think it would have been more interesting if Quentin, Sara, and Oliver had planned for Sara to poison herself and "die" in front of Nyssa, who, in an act of kindness, would have allowed the Lances to keep Sara's body. Oliver would have given her the cure after Nyssa departed and voilà.

You're assuming the antidote could be taken whenever at their own convenience. And also that Nyssa wouldn't rather take Sara's body back to a Lazarus pit.

Why was Laurel at the warehouse? Who called her? Why did they call her? Also: as someone who has been defending Laurel and her behavior for the past couple of episodes, I was very annoyed with her in this one.

I think maybe Quentin called her ? or Oliver ?

The flashbacks were interesting to watch. I didn't even notice until the end that they had replaced the island flashbacks. Laurel didn't look the slightest bit younger in them. It was like watching a grown woman play dress up.

And lastly...Sara and Oliver. Why? Don't get me wrong; I like that they're together (presumably) and I think the actors have chemistry, but the build up, in my opinion, was insufficient.

They've been in love during the Queens Gambit days and there's probably still more to come on the Island. And why ? Because Sara is Black Canary and the two are usually in a relationship.

As you can probably tell, I thought this episode was a mixed bag. 6/10.

 

[Nathan]

I think maybe Quentin called her ? or Oliver ?

It looked like she followed Quentin when he left. Now the question is, why did it take her so long to show up, when she followed his car? She missed the entire fight sequence and Sara almost dying.

 

[Human Torch]

There really shouldn't be a fear of Batman "outclassing" Arrow on the show.That's like saying who needs Batman when you have Superman?Just because Supe can fly and bullets bounce off him,doesn't make Batman unnecessary.

You play to each character's strength.Maybe Bat's is a better detective,but I'd guess they're about the same in hand to hand combat.Ollie is probably better with a bow than Bat's is with a Batarang.

I think what will prevent a Batman appearance is that craptastic idea of a show they're doing on Fox.CW would probably be happy to spin a Batman show out of Arrow.I mean,if Flash doesn't "outclass" Arrow,I'm sure Batman won't.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

It looked like she followed Quentin when he left. Now the question is, why did it take her so long to show up, when she followed his car? She missed the entire fight sequence and Sara almost dying.

She probably stopped to get some quaaludes.

 

[Human Torch]

I don't know that Nyssa would have the authority to release Sara from the League.(Sara was asking her to talk to Ra's.She never asked Nyssa to release her)Makes me wonder what Ra's will have to say about this.

 

[Shikamaru]

No, no they're not.

This is not the comics. Maybe in this continuity, Batman (if he even exists), hasn't had a run in with Ra's or his cronies. This is a blank slate universe.

I don't think that would be a good idea. I think it would be very disserving to take a major villain in that sense. If anything, it would make the show (and Green Arrow by extension) feel like a poor man's Batman 2.0. As Llama_Shepherd stated, they might as well rename the show to "We couldn't afford Batman."

This show (especially Season 2) has done a very good job at establishing a unique identity for Green Arrow and showing he isn't just a poor man's Batman. Making Ra's be Oliver's big bad in that sense would regress that.

I wish they'd have just mentioned Gotham getting blown up in the pilot. I like Batman, but man am I tired of hearing about Batman on Arrow. There are a thousand other forms of Batman media out there. Guy doesn't have to be in everything.

He doesn't have to be in Arrow. No one expected him to be on Arrow when Season 1 aired. The problem is they're going out of their way to make people ask for Batman, whether it is intentional or not.

Picture your favorite food. Whatever it is, let's say you don't have access to it at this moment. Unless you're starving to death (and you shouldn't be if you have this food on a regular basis), you not having access to that particular food at the moment isn't a problem. Maybe you'll daydream about it for a few seconds, but then you just get back to whatever it is you were doing or you would grab whatever food you do have access to at that moment. It isn't a problem at all.

Now let's say that while you're thinking about your favorite food that you still don't have on you at this moment, someone next to you starts eating it and the smell just hits you in the face. Now you can't just put it off your mind that easily. But if the person next of you wasn't eating it, it would have never been a problem.

That is essentially what this show is doing with Batman. Arrow having no traces of Batman is no problem. But when you bring in a major Batman villain like Ra's into the show set him up as this big threat that Arrow will have to face at one point and give Ollie all these different dynamics with specific LOA members, that's when the Batman "smell" starts to hit you in the face. That's why I said the writers are partly at fault for this and it isn't completely just a fan outcry. It isn't fair to put the blame for all the Batman demand on the fans when you do that.

 

[Boy Scout]

Felicity admitted she had no plan and that is was foolish.

It was beyond foolish. Felicity is supposed to be a genius, and she didn't demonstrate that intelligence at all in this episode.

Fair enough, I'd have to see more of them together and in a circumstance similar to when they were lovers. I felt some chemistry when they kissed. Or was it biology ?

They're definitely hot to look at, but that's about it for me.

He trusted his skills enough to know when he absolutely had to take the shot to save someones life.

If you saw someone approaching someone you loved with a knife and you were capable of stopping or distracting them, wouldn't you do it? Especially if that person was a trained assassin who has orders to take your loved one and flee the country by any means necessary? The reason he didn't do anything is because the writers needed him to see Nyssa and Sara kiss, which was nice, but sloppily done.

I think it was when she saw Sara would rather take poison and die than return with Nyssa ?

She knew Sara didn't want to return with her. That's why she resorted to kidnapping her mother, of all people. It was clear to me that Nyssa did not give a damn about what Sara wanted, and the fact that she changed her mind at the height of her villainy confused the hell out of me.

If a girl would rather take poison than be with you you should probably let it go.

Or follow your orders, slit her throat, and bring her back anyway.

You're assuming the antidote could be taken whenever at their own convenience.

It's TV. It's always at their own convenience. Sara could have taken a concentrated dose that would have left her alive, but "dead" long enough for them to convince Nyssa to leave.

And also that Nyssa wouldn't rather take Sara's body back to a Lazarus pit.

Why would Sara have killed herself in the first place if she thought Nyssa could have just taken her body and dumped her in a Lazarus Pit?

I think maybe Quentin called her ? or Oliver ?

But why?

They've been in love during the Queens Gambit days and there's probably still more to come on the Island.

That is the past. This is the present, and before this episode, they did not display any romantic interest in each other in the present until the last five minutes of this episode.

And why ? Because Sara is Black Canary and the two are usually in a relationship.

That is not, and never has been, a good enough reason. The audience won't accept something just because the source material dictates that it has to be done.

 

[Boy Scout]

I don't know that Nyssa would have the authority to release Sara from the League.(Sara was asking her to talk to Ra's.She never asked Nyssa to release her)Makes me wonder what Ra's will have to say about this.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if Ra's is personally invested in Sara's return. I feel like this whole thing was orchestrated by Nyssa, and since it is her mission, she is free to abandon it whenever she chooses. I might be forgetting some information, though. Perhaps Nyssa is just willing to suffer the consequences.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

It was beyond foolish. Felicity is supposed to be a genius, and she didn't demonstrate that intelligence at all in this episode.



They're definitely hot to look at, but that's about it for me.



If you saw someone approaching someone you loved with a knife and you were capable of stopping or distracting them, wouldn't you do it? Especially if that person was a trained assassin who has orders to take your loved one and flee the country by any means necessary? The reason he didn't do anything is because the writers needed him to see Nyssa and Sara kiss, which was nice, but sloppily done.



She knew Sara didn't want to return with her. That's why she resorted to kidnapping her mother, of all people. It was clear to me that Nyssa did not give a damn about what Sara wanted, and the fact that she changed her mind at the height of her villainy confused the hell out of me.



Or follow your orders, slit her throat, and bring her back anyway.



It's TV. It's always at their own convenience. Sara could have taken a concentrated dose that would have left her alive, but "dead" long enough for them to convince Nyssa to leave.



Why would Sara have killed herself in the first place if she thought Nyssa could have just taken her body and dumped her in a Lazarus Pit?



But why?



That is the past. This is the present, and before this episode, they did not display any romantic interest in each other in the present until the last five minutes of this episode.



That is not, and never has been, a good enough reason. The audience won't accept something just because the source material dictates that it has to be done.

You make some good points and I don't have an answer for everything.

But at least for Ollie and Sara's love IMO he always loved her and not Laurel. He took Sara on the Gambit after all.

Why they didn't show this love immediately upon Sara's return to Starling City ? I reckon with all the pressure of the League still a factor and her family not knowing she's alive and also just the shock for Ollie to find out she survived and is now a vigilante/assassin would postpone any feelings of love they had.

But now with the League no longer a factor and Sara's family safe and aware that she's alive I can imagine a 6 year load just coming off their shoulders and them kissing and making out is basically them continuing what they were doing before they were so rudely interrupted by that storm on the Gambit that night.

As if their lives together had been paused since the Gambit and now things are finally looking up and they can finally continue that night.

At least that's what I can imagine the emotion would be like. Not for a second do I believe it came out of nowhere.

I'll try to answer the rest tomorrow if I can. if there even is an answer but this was the one I just had to do before I hit the hay.

Their love was in suspended animation.

 

[Human Torch]

Why didn't Walter warn Moira that Felicity was poking her nose into her business? And why did Felicity approach Moira (the woman she does not trust) with the information she had obtained without a plan or backup? Moira could have easily had her killed before she breathed a word to Oliver. She also could have just lied. I don't doubt that she could have fooled Felicity (if only for a short time).

Sara and Nyssa? Hot couple, zero chemistry. Kristina Law was a serviceable actress (at best). I liked her costume, though.

Why did Oliver stand there and let Nyssa approach Sara when she was clearly armed?

Yeah,good points.I agree.

 

[Human Torch]

I think the weakest aspect is the "Ollie's done with mom" storyline.I mean,she kept that she had an affair with Malcolm secret.That's not something I'd expect her to confide in her son with.

It also comes off as extremely hypocritical.Not only is Ollie guilty of cheating on Laurel,but Roger (we're told) had cheated on Moira in the past.

No one in the series is totally innocent. (Well,except Felicity.t They're trying way too hard for some soap angst and it shows.

 

[Boy Scout]

But at least for Ollie and Sara's love IMO he always loved her and not Laurel. He took Sara on the Gambit after all.

He did that out of fear, not love. He was perfectly happy with Laurel before she wanted to settle down.

Why they didn't show this love immediately upon Sara's return to Starling City ? I reckon with all the pressure of the League still a factor and her family not knowing she's alive and also just the shock for Ollie to find out she survived and is now a vigilante/assassin would postpone any feelings of love they had.

There was nothing stopping the writers from showing that there was a lingering attraction between the two of them. I never got the impression that they still had feelings for each other. What I saw was a mutual understanding and a very strong friendship.

Now that the League of Assassins have stopped searching for Sara, she and Oliver now have all the time in the world to pick up where they left off and explore whatever feelings they might have for each other. Instead of using that time wisely, the writers jumped straight to the payoff, and to be honest with you, I'm a little disappointed that they did that. Oh well. I'm sure they know what they're doing. I want to see where it goes before I accuse them of making a mistake.

 

[Shikamaru]

I think the weakest aspect is the "Ollie's done with mom" storyline.I mean,she kept that she had an affair with Malcolm secret.That's not something I'd expect her to confide in her son with.

It also comes off as extremely hypocritical.Not only is Ollie guilty of cheating on Laurel,but Roger (we're told) had cheated on Moira in the past.

No one in the series is totally innocent. (Well,except Felicity.t They're trying way too hard for some soap angst and it shows.

He's not mad at Moira's affair. He's mad at her lying to Thea about who her father is.

 

[Boy Scout]

I think, if Oliver didn't have the history with Malcolm that he did, he would be more forgiving. His hatred of Malcolm is clouding his judgement. The fact that Malcolm's blood runs through his darling little sister's veins is just one more reason for Oliver to despise him. I believe he truly is angry at Moira, but is even more angry at Malcolm, but because he's dead, there is only one person he can take it out on.

 

[iamlegend]

He doesn't have to be in Arrow. No one expected him to be on Arrow when Season 1 aired. The problem is they're going out of their way to make people ask for Batman, whether it is intentional or not.

Picture your favorite food. Whatever it is, let's say you don't have access to it at this moment. Unless you're starving to death (and you shouldn't be if you have this food on a regular basis), you not having access to that particular food at the moment isn't a problem. Maybe you'll daydream about it for a few seconds, but then you just get back to whatever it is you were doing or you would grab whatever food you do have access to at that moment. It isn't a problem at all.

Now let's say that while you're thinking about your favorite food that you still don't have on you at this moment, someone next to you starts eating it and the smell just hits you in the face. Now you can't just put it off your mind that easily. But if the person next of you wasn't eating it, it would have never been a problem.

That is essentially what this show is doing with Batman. Arrow having no traces of Batman is no problem. But when you bring in a major Batman villain like Ra's into the show set him up as this big threat that Arrow will have to face at one point and give Ollie all these different dynamics with specific LOA members, that's when the Batman "smell" starts to hit you in the face. That's why I said the writers are partly at fault for this and it isn't completely just a fan outcry. It isn't fair to put the blame for all the Batman demand on the fans when you do that.

That analogy doesn't work at all. This is more like grabbing a burger at the food court, sitting down, and then seeing that person next to you has a cheesesteak, which you like better.

The solution? Go buy a freaking cheesesteak. Or, rather, go watch one of the many adaptations of Batman.

You knew what you were getting when you bought the cheeseburger. It's Arrow. You never expected it to be a cheesesteak, or to even include any cheesesteak pieces. And, just because you'd rather have a cheesesteak, the burger has no obligation to become a cheesesteak.

And the show's use of Ra's hasn't progressed nearly to a point where I'd consider him a lock to be a major villain, yet. So people need to cool their jets. Hell, Deathstroke started as a Teen Titans villain, and he's the season's main protagonist.

 

[iamlegend]

I think, if Oliver didn't have the history with Malcolm that he did, he would be more forgiving. His hatred of Malcolm is clouding his judgement. The fact that Malcolm's blood runs through his darling little sister's veins is just one more reason for Oliver to despise him. I believe he truly is angry at Moira, but is even more angry at Malcolm, but because he's dead, there is only one person he can take it out on.

I think it's less WHAT Oliver learned, and more what it MEANS. Suddenly he's starting to believe that his mother's more devious and cunning than he ever believed. Remember, he thought of her as a victim to Malcolm's schemes.

 

[Mikelus]

Why didn't Walter warn Moira that Felicity was poking her nose into her business? And why did Felicity approach Moira (the woman she does not trust) with the information she had obtained without a plan or backup? Moira could have easily had her killed before she breathed a word to Oliver. She also could have just lied. I don't doubt that she could have fooled Felicity (if only for a short time).

And why the universe exists?

Well, maybe cause Moira is not a psychopath and Felicity is not a perfect cold genius, she was conflicted, the situation was delicate.

Sara and Nyssa? Hot couple, zero chemistry. Kristina Law was a serviceable actress (at best).

Tell that to the producers, since it seems you know better than they do:

Law meanwhile said it was a surprise for her to learn Nyssa was a lesbian, because when she’d first read for the part, not only did the sides [pages of the script used for auditions] use a fake character name for Nyssa, but they had her big relationship scenes be with Oliver. Explained Guggenheim, ”For spoilers -- because the sides always make it out onto the Internet — we made up fake sides for Nyssa, because we didn't want to spoil it. So it was a brand new character name, sort of that killer thing, but a scene between this character -- I'm forgetting what we even called her -- and Oliver. Then we narrowed it down to Katrina and one other actress, and we brought them both back for chemistry reads with Caity Lotz. We said, ‘By the way, she's gay -- and, oh, by the way, it's Nyssa al Ghul.’” Kreisberg said that “about 12 seconds in” to seeing Law read with Lotz, they knew that was the right pairing. When Law said, with a laugh, “Our chemistry's just palpable!,” the producers assured her that was actually the case.

Said Guggenheim, “We do these chemistry reads for a reason. The truth is, you can really see it when it's there, and you can see it when it's not there. Added Kreisberg, “We did that with Emily [Bett Rickards] and Grant [Gustin], and there were a couple other actors who were in line for The Flash.

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2014/02/...d-black-canary-relationship-and-whats-to-come

Why was Laurel at the warehouse? Who called her? Why did they call her? Also: as someone who has been defending Laurel and her behavior for the past couple of episodes, I was very annoyed with her in this one.

Really? Cause her parents were not there... oh wait! Sorry, but some of your questions are just silly, use your imagination a little bit, is not that hard.

And lastly...Sara and Oliver. Why? Don't get me wrong; I like that they're together (presumably) and I think the actors have chemistry, but the build up, in my opinion, was insufficient.

The sexual tension was there from the start (when Sara returned to SC), you were not paying attention, that's all. Maybe it wasn't perfect, they should've kept the Roy scenes or find the way to at least mention him for continuity's sake, but most fans seem happy with the episode, is definitely one of the best this season.

 

[Boy Scout]

And why the universe exists?

Well...

Well, maybe cause Moira is not a psychopath...

Uh huh.

Besides: like I said, she could have just lied.

Felicity is not a perfect cold genius, she was conflicted, the situation was delicate.

You don't have to be a genius to make intelligent decisions. If she felt conflicted about the situation, she shouldn't have approached Moira about it.

Tell that to the producers, since it seems you know better than they do...

If you're going to be a condescending ass or put words in my mouth, don't reply to my posts.

Really? Cause her parents were not there... oh wait! Sorry, but some of your questions are just silly, use your imagination a little bit, is not that hard.

I'm not sure if you were paying attention to what was going on. Why would anyone have put Laurel in danger by bringing her to the place where a deadly assassin was threatening multiple lives? Why would they have allowed her to drive when they know for a fact that she has been having drug and alcohol related problems? Why would they let her know what was going on right that second when it was obvious to anyone that she was already in an emotionally fragile place?

The sexual tension was there from the start (when Sara returned to SC), you were not paying attention, that's all.

That was no sexual tension between them at all. They acknowledged their history and it was obvious that they had a connection, but that connection was, above all, platonic. If you interpreted it otherwise, good for you.

...but most fans seem happy with the episode...

I don't care. How other people feel about the episode isn't my concern and doesn't affect my opinion one way or the other.

 

[Boy Scout]

I think it's less WHAT Oliver learned, and more what it MEANS. Suddenly he's starting to believe that his mother's more devious and cunning than he ever believed. Remember, he thought of her as a victim to Malcolm's schemes.

I don't disagree. Like I said: I believe he is legitimately angry at her. However, I feel like he is being harsher than he otherwise might have because she is the only person he can take his anger out on.

 

[Mikelus]

You don't have to be a genius to make intelligent decisions. If she felt conflicted about the situation, she shouldn't have approached Moira about it.

Even the smartest people make mistakes even worse than this, specially when emotions are involved, really shocking right!

As for the rest, you admitted the connection was there, it wasn't that platonic was it?

 

[b_boy]

....
I'm not sure if you were paying attention to what was going on. Why would anyone have put Laurel in danger by bringing her to the place where a deadly assassin was threatening multiple lives? Why would they have allowed her to drive when they know for a fact that she has been having drug and alcohol related problems? Why would they let her know what was going on right that second when it was obvious to anyone that she was already in an emotionally fragile place?
.......

She followed her father. He was at her apartment taking care of her (and her mother was sundely gone), he got a call and told her he would back back. She stood up, notice something was suspicious and followed him. Really, the scene was there, I do believe now that people start looking at the ceiling or away from the tv on her scenes......


About saying she was a bi** to Sara in the past, really guys? She sees that her sister doesn't stop texting someone, starts a happy conversation about "oh, who is he?" and Sara turns the conversation to "come on, your relationship with Oliver isn't going nowhere". Of course Laurel got mad. And ppl keep repeating "ow, Laurel called the cops and bursted the party", she didn't, she tipped of her father about Sara snucking out of the house to go to a party she wasn't suposed to go. And from Quentin's line asking on the flashback if Sara was kicked out of school, it shows that she wasn't inocent, but rather a teenage girl who party's too much or has trouble at school.

Again, ppl keep hating on Laurel as a sport and defintely don't pay any atention when she's on screen, only get bits here and there to hate on her. And a lot of the hate comes from assuming that Sara is for sure going to die this season and Laurel will be Black Canary right after. There's nothing pointing towards that, the producers said it takes time, they won't just put her on fishnets and be on par with Oliver, it will take time.

 

[b_boy]

I don't disagree. Like I said: I believe he is legitimately angry at her. However, I feel like he is being harsher than he otherwise might have because she is the only person he can take his anger out on.

I agree, he's being way harsher than needed. Last weekend I rewatched some episodes from the first season and I had forget, but the episode where Oliver and Moira "are kidnapped by Arrow" and Diggle dressed as Arrow starts beating Oliver to get information from her, Oliver could cleary see there that Moira was trying to protect her children during the whole time and it wasn't from anyone, it was from Malcon who he latter discovered was the Dark Archer...

 

[DrMylesOBoogie]

I was so skeptical of this show after it's first few episode but wow they're knocking it out of the park. Amazing episode full of tension and emotion.