Arrow Arrow Season 2 Episode 13 "Heir to the Demon" Rate/Review thread

[Infinity9999x]

^ ehhh I still think the list has a part to play this season

Honestly, I doubt it. It's pretty clear that they ditched the list idea because it's honestly the biggest plot hole in the whole season.

Oliver's Dad gives him this all important "list" of people Oliver must take down...but really the person behind all of it as Meryln. You think Oliver's Dad would have made a point to say something like "All these people are bad people...but seriously, you probably want to take down Malcom first, he's kind of planning to destroy half the city. So yeah, he's definitely the most important."

 

[Human Torch]

On top of that the writers keep adding little details that, honestly, I have NO IDEA why they felt the need to include. For example the whole "Laurel knew Sarah liked Ollie first" thing. Just...why? Why did that need to be added? It literally adds nothing to the story other than to make Laurel more unlikable. And what purpose does that serve?
.

I hesitate to say this as to not get people's hopes up,but it seems an obvious attempt to ret-con Sara as Ollie's "true love" and not just the meaningless fling that was originally intended.

 

[DrRocket]

^ please be true

 

[Nathan]

Plus the added bit that showed Sara being hesitant to join up with Ollie, talking with Laurel about her relationship, and Ollie pretty much begging her to come with him.

Yes, regardless of all that, Sara still betrayed her sister. But the writers really try to make it seem not as bad anymore. And at the same time, they had Laurel engage b**ch mode, when Sara said Ollie might not be ready to settle down. No confidence on Laurel's part, or reassuring that she believes Oliver had changed, to make us actually feel sorry for Laurel, because she truly believes Oliver is the one. No, she just ripped straight into Sara for poking her dream bubble.

 

[Shikamaru]

Honestly, I doubt it. It's pretty clear that they ditched the list idea because it's honestly the biggest plot hole in the whole season.

Oliver's Dad gives him this all important "list" of people Oliver must take down...but really the person behind all of it as Meryln. You think Oliver's Dad would have made a point to say something like "All these people are bad people...but seriously, you probably want to take down Malcom first, he's kind of planning to destroy half the city. So yeah, he's definitely the most important."

I agree. The list was clearly a MacGuffin. They didn't initially know how to get Oliver to fight a bad guy every week, so they came up with it on the spot. Over the course of the season, the plot as a whole became better and more complex than they thought it would be, which lead to the finale having some problems.

I think if they could go back to Season 1, they would have done the list differently (or it wouldn't have been there at all).

 

[DrRocket]

^ I think I read somewhere that the list comes back into play an that in the flashbacks oliver discovers a video of his dad explaining the list to him.

 

[Loki882]

I could maybe excuse Robert leaving out Malcolm as due to the affects of being stuck on a tiny life-boat for weeks after surviving a shipwreck. Starvation, exposure, delirium, and thirst were probably factors by that point. Besides, Robert only asked Oliver to "right his wrongs," but he didn't say HOW Oliver should do that. He never said "find the people on this list and kill them all." Also, he didn't give Oliver the notebook, Oliver found it in his pocket after he killed himself.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I could maybe excuse Robert leaving out Malcolm as due to the affects of being stuck on a tiny life-boat for weeks after surviving a shipwreck. Starvation, exposure, delirium, and thirst were probably factors by that point. Besides, Robert only asked Oliver to "right his wrongs," but he didn't say HOW Oliver should do that. He never said "find the people on this list and kill them all." Also, he didn't give Oliver the notebook, Oliver found it in his pocket after he killed himself.

Even then, you would think the notebook would have a direct reference to The Undertaking and, you know, the fact that Malcolm was the one behind it.

Any way you shake it, I think it's clear they changed gears mid-way through the season. Don't get me wrong, what they ended up with was so good I didn't really care about that plot hole, but I think it was definitely apparent.

Plus the added bit that showed Sara being hesitant to join up with Ollie, talking with Laurel about her relationship, and Ollie pretty much begging her to come with him.

Yes, regardless of all that, Sara still betrayed her sister. But the writers really try to make it seem not as bad anymore. And at the same time, they had Laurel engage b**ch mode, when Sara said Ollie might not be ready to settle down. No confidence on Laurel's part, or reassuring that she believes Oliver had changed, to make us actually feel sorry for Laurel, because she truly believes Oliver is the one. No, she just ripped straight into Sara for poking her dream bubble.

Another great example of poor handling of the character. Why have Laurel jump down Sarah's throat when Sarah tries to, quite reasonably, raise some doubts about him? Had that scene gone down where Laurel just calmly replied "No, I think he's really changed. I think he might be the one," then we would feel sorry for her. But instead, as you say, it makes her look unconfident and overly defensive.

 

[LongbowHunter]

I think the way to retcon the list-plothole is to explain that the list was made by Malcolm, therefore he isn't on it. Moira had a list too, so I guess Malcolm gave those tiny notebooks to his associates so that they could contact each other (or he gave it to the four or five "undertakers" (haha) whom we've seen in the flashbacks, maki g them the "elite" and the ones on the list the minions to contact to get things done).
The fact that he doesn't reveal Malcolm as the über-Boss behind it all in the video that Oliver should find is maybe due to the fact that he doesn't want Oliver to go after someone so dangerous. Maybe Robert thought that the levelling of the Glades was already unstoppable (he couldn't see his son becoming a vigilante) and just thought that Ollie should ruin some undertakers(I'm getting to like this), like financially, as a Karma sort of thing.

 

[mr. peasant]

Unless, the List was a list of co-conspirators involved in the Undertaking aside from just Robert and Malcolm. Perhaps it was a list of people Robert needed to deal with (either to join his side or to eliminate) in order to undermine Malcolm's plan. So, of course Malcolm's name wouldn't be on it.

Another possibility is that it was a list of members, with Malcolm and Richard being the founders of the group. I mean, I certainly wouldn't need to keep a list with my name on it to remind myself that I, myself was a member of a secret organisation that I created.

 

[Infinight888]

Am I the only one who cracked up at Oliver's "you made me a liar, too" speech? Really Oliver? You lie to Thea every single day.

Unless, the List was a list of co-conspirators involved in the Undertaking aside from just Robert and Malcolm. Perhaps it was a list of people Robert needed to deal with (either to join his side or to eliminate) in order to undermine Malcolm's plan. So, of course Malcolm's name wouldn't be on it.

Another possibility is that it was a list of members, with Malcolm and Richard being the founders of the group. I mean, I certainly wouldn't need to keep a list with my name on it to remind myself that I, myself was a member of a secret organisation that I created.

I was under the impression that the list was criminals that were either being blackmailed into working for the people responsible for the Undertaking. Perhaps they provided the funding, since they were usually wealthy individuals.? The List was something that I believe all the higher-ups possessed (Malcolm, Robert, the Asian dude who's name escapes me and later, Moira). I don't believe any of the higher members had their names in the list.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

I don't even get how Oliver can sever ties with his mother.

His mother employed him at QC, he works under her. She could easily fire him.

He also lives in her house.

He's basically financially dependent on Moira, just like Tommy and Malcolm.

 

[Boy Scout]

I don't even get how Oliver can sever ties with his mother.

His mother employed him at QC, he works under her. She could easily fire him.

He also lives in her house.

He's basically financially dependent on Moira, just like Tommy and Malcolm.

Yeah, if he's serious about severing all personal ties, he should probably move out.

 

[regnak]

Oliver's not the sharpest arrow in the quiver.

 

[JC00]

His mother employed him at QC, he works under her. She could easily fire him.

When did Oliver give up his position to his mother?

You should watch "The Scientist" again, Isabel tells Oliver that it wouldn't be a good idea for the company to give his part of it to his mother. Then at the party thrown for Moira they had the exchange where Oliver admitted she was right.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

When did Oliver give up his position to his mother?

You should watch "The Scientist" again, Isabel tells Oliver that it wouldn't be a good idea for the company to give his part of it to his mother. Then at the party thrown for Moira they had the exchange where Oliver admitted she was right.

I don't remember ever seeing Moira stepping down at QC CEO.

In fact she was still at the QC Offices when she ran into Sebastian in the recent episode.


When Moira returned to QC, she took the center seat. It's really her company. Oliver is a CEO as well, but he really used Moira and Walter's money to buy the shares in order to get that position.

 

[JC00]

Really? Your basing your assumption on Oliver giving her his seat?

Guess you also forgot the whole "Partners going forward" scene at the end of the first episode of the season.

So what if she was in the building when Sebastian was there. That was just lazy writing so Sebastian and Moira could interact.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

It's still her company and really her money to get Oliver's shares.

And it's more than just the seat. It was staged that way to illustrate that when Moira is in play, Oliver takes a passive role while Moira is dominant. The director didn't just arrange the scene that way randomly.

She also doesn't trust Rochev so I doubt she's going to give up her control any time soon.

 

[Coconut1214]

Yeah, if he's serious about severing all personal ties, he should probably move out.

I could actually see the writers having Sara and Oliver buy an apartment together to really throw Laurel's relationship with him under the bus.

 

[Boy Scout]

That would be a really bad idea.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

Well Oliver would have to buy that apartment. Sara has no income, nor is she allowed to be legally employed.. since she's legally dead at the moment.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

That would be a really bad idea.

They should move into Laurel's apartment after she gets evicted.

Reminds me of Smallville and The Talon.

 

[Coconut1214]

I was joking, I hope they don't do that.

But since they seem to be establishing that Laurel is not his true love, by adding unnecessarily back stories that pretty much throw their relationship in the garbage, I could see the writers doing something like that.

Oliver needs to move out of his mother's house and Sara needs a place to live now that she's back for good. They are already sleeping together, so why not? Plus they lived together on the island for a bit when they didn't have access to showers. So if they could stand being around each other then, living together in civilization should be much easier.

 

[Capt. Marvelous]

I doubt Oliver will move out. I think Moira will die first, and Oliver will inherit the mansion.

Moira seems like the only character on the show that definitely has to and will die. It's just a matter of time.

 

[JC00]

It's still her company and really her money to get Oliver's shares.

And it's more than just the seat. It was staged that way to illustrate that when Moira is in play, Oliver takes a passive role while Moira is dominant. The director didn't just arrange the scene that way randomly.

She also doesn't trust Rochev so I doubt she's going to give up her control any time soon.

She doesn't have the power to fire him from his position of CEO. But continue thinking she does.