The Dark Knight Rises Batman: To "Die".. or Not To "Die:?

[byte19]

I said it worked for Thomas but for Batman to be bigger than Thomas, surviving would seem to be the method to go.

and even if it strengthens it, it's not the focus.

the Focus is WHAT he does, not IF he dies.

To rest this entire legacy on Bruce's survival is really a slap in the face to the nature of these films.

But the death strengthens that. Like you pointed out in another thread, it wasn't until his father died that he became a legend and people reacted to it. Same with Batman.

Your post contradicts itself. First you say killing off a popular character is extremely difficult to do, then you go on to say it would be the easy way out for Nolan.
If Nolan et al have proved nothing else with this series, it's that they can write exceptionally well.

And remember, this is not strictly the comic book Batman. This Batman is not doing this for revenge, he's doing it for his love of the city. He wants nothing more for Gotham to NOT NEED HIM. If it appears Gotham doesn't need him anymore, he may "kill" Batman himself.
BTW, it almost sounds in the teaser that Wayne has at least taken a hiatus from being Batman, with the line, "What if he doesn't exist anymore."
If that is the case, then the story will have come full circle..
1. Bruce Wayne returns to Gotham as the prodigal son.
2. Batman dissapears for a while, then returns, thus being the second version of the prodigal son.
The more I think about it, the more I am inclinded to think "Batman" will "die", either literally or figuratively.

Most certainly it could.
If Batman were to die while he was wanted and pursued by GPD, he would die a villian in the eyes of Gotham.
If he dies redeeming himself, it would set him up almost a mythic hero.
That's just basic storytelling.

Well I don't think he has to die. No way. But I am definitely discerning from the way Nolan has been in interviews and how WB is handling the future of these films, that it's a probability.

Hopefully that's fair and not as offensive as some people have been in this thread with the whole 'NO, IT'S NOT HAPPENING. I'D WALK OUT THE THEATRE. WHY DOES THIS THREAD EXIST? IDIOTS!' and more along the same lines as the people that think it's possible but unlikely/wouldn't want it I have no gripe with you guys.

this is why this thread exists... and cause A Mod said Open One...

 

[not_a_victim]

Haha wanna bet? An actual death of bruce wayne wont happen.

I think the whole argument is whether or not Batman will die, not Wayne. Batman could "die" metaphorically. It would be as simple as Bane ripping Batman's mask off during a fight, and a news crew catching the action. That would be the "death" of Batman.
Additionally, this thread is about the theoretical 'whys' and 'hows' of said death.
If you have insider info on Wayne's fate at the end of the movie, then spill.

 

[Mister Meddle]

I'm confident that Bruce Wayne isn't going to die (or get caught) but I do think it's possible that he will hang up the suit and as he exits the cave he will shut everything down and whisper to himself "never again". It would conclude the story of Batman in the Nolanverse while leaving the door open for a different director in the future.

 

[The_Raganork]

Haha wanna bet? An actual death of bruce wayne wont happen.

I think the whole argument is whether or not Batman will die, not Wayne. Batman could "die" metaphorically. It would be as simple as Bane ripping Batman's mask off during a fight, and a news crew catching the action. That would be the "death" of Batman.
Additionally, this thread is about the theoretical 'whys' and 'hows' of said death.
If you have insider info on Wayne's fate at the end of the movie, then spill.

If someone says something that's anything less than an engaging comment why reply?

Clearly Spidey has nothing to offer the discussion but a subjective opinion which they pass off incorrectly as fact.

 

[Truu]

I'm confident that Bruce Wayne isn't going to die (or get caught) but I do think it's possible that he will hang up the suit and as he exits the cave he will shut everything down and whisper to himself "never again".

That would be a lame ending. Batman won't retire until he dies.

 

[Mister Meddle]

That would be a lame ending. Batman won't retire until he dies.

Um how is it lame? Batman retired and then made a comeback in The Dark Knight Returns. It would end the story of Batman in the Nolanverse while leaving the door open for a future director.

 

[Truu]

Um how is it lame? Batman retired and then made a comeback in The Dark Knight Returns. It would end the story of Batman in the Nolanverse while leaving the door open for a future director.

If he came back, he didn't retire.

 

[not_a_victim]

That would be a lame ending. Batman won't retire until he dies.

Like I said, I think he is semi-retired when he visits Gordon in the hospital. The line "What if he doesn't exist anymore." points me in that direction.

 

[Infinity9999x]

If he came back, he didn't retire.

That's not how retiring works. People can "come out of retirement." Just ask Michael Jordan.

Still, I don't want to see Bruce retiring or killed in this movie. But I thought I'd point that out.

 

[Mister Meddle]

If he came back, he didn't retire.

That's why there's no such thing as "coming out of retirement".

Still, I don't want to see Bruce retiring or killed in this movie. But I thought I'd point that out.

Agreed, although I rather see him retire than die.

 

[Truu]

Like I said, I think he is semi-retired when he visits Gordon in the hospital. The line "What if he doesn't exist anymore." points me in that direction.

Sure but he will never completely give up Batman until he dies. It just doesn't fit his character.

 

[The_Raganork]

Sure but he will never completely give up Batman until he dies. It just doesn't fit his character.

Sounds like he does in this film, I'm not sure what else

"The Batman has to come back"

"What if he doesn't exist anymore?"

Could possibly mean

 

[Truu]

Sounds like he does in this film, I'm not sure what else

"The Batman has to come back"

"What if he doesn't exist anymore?"

Could possibly mean

Even if it does happen, I still don't think it fits his character, and I'll be disappointed. So Rachel's death didn't do anything to fuel Batman? Seriously, WTF is that?

 

[not_a_victim]

Even if it does happen, I still don't think it fits his character, and I'll be disappointed. So Rachel's death didn't do anything to fuel Batman? Seriously, WTF is that?

What do you mean it doesn't fit his character?
He wants Gotham to not need him anymore. Looks like he will be coming out of retirement when Gotham needs him again...

 

[Truu]

What do you mean it doesn't fit his character?
He wants Gotham to not need him anymore. Looks like he will be coming out of retirement when Gotham needs him again...

Yeah but the line "What if he doesn't exist anymore?" - That doesn't fit his character.

 

[Mister Meddle]

What do you mean it doesn't fit his character?
He wants Gotham to not need him anymore. Looks like he will be coming out of retirement when Gotham needs him again...

This. It was implied in TDK. It seemed like he wanted Harvey to become that hero. Hell he almost surrendered Batman until Dent saved his ass.

As for Rachel, they already caught the Joker. I doubt her death is going to make him emo for the rest of his life. And like someone said, after watching the teaser trailer it sounds like he isn't sure if he wants to bring Batman back.

 

[Bat-Mite]

I can see the Shakespearean tragedy in Batman dying in this movie, but I'd rather do without it. Just the concept of it sounds cheap and gimmicky and I've compared it to Shyamalan before and think that comparison is apt. One of the big arguments for it is that "It's never been done before." Well, we've never seen a superhero sitting on a toilet before, either, so if he goes out, I propose that we kill two birds with one stone and have him die on the commode.

Being a big Alien fan, I can tell you that fans weren't very pleased when the hero of that series was killed off at the end of that trilogy, even though Ripley's death was done in a very tasteful and respectful way. Far from being seen as the best thing ever, if this happened, it could have the potential to backfire and be seen as "teh realizms & teh gritty" run amok. Remember, even though these stories are directed towards a more mature audience, kids still watch them and Nolan has to keep that in mind. You can bet that WB would bring that up and beat that drum for all it's worth if Nolan pitched killing Batman to them.

The other thing is, whenever people talk about Batman's death inspiring the people of Gotham, it sounds extremely derivative of V for Vendetta where everyone is putting on the V masks and marching towards Parliament. Maybe Batman's death wouldn't be so literally inspiring as V's was, but you can bet your ass that the comparison would be made, that Nolan would be accused of ripping it off, etc.

Also, Nolan has stated before that these movies take place in the early part of Batman's career. Now, he could have changed his mind about that, but if not, Batman obviously isn't going to die because his career would have to continue in some fashion beyond the scope of these movies.

Yeah, I can see Batman's death working in the story and it being an amazing event, but I'm very cautious of the concept and not at all fond of it. It's not nearly as unpredictable and novel as people make it out to be, because it was being discussed years before this movie even began filming.

Not really related to the death thing.. but arguments that he wanted to give up Batman in TDK are irrelevant. His only reason for wanting to do that was Rachel and she's gone now. He thought Harvey would take over for him and he'd swoop in and start a "normal life" with Rachel. He was naive. He's seen that dream shattered now and as Rachel predicted, he will realize that he'll always need to be Batman.

 

[not_a_victim]

Yeah but the line "What if he doesn't exist anymore?" - That doesn't fit his character.

No, it doesn't fit your concept of a character you didn't create.
What if this line is said by Wayne after Bane has handed him a truly epic beatdown, and he has lost the drive to fight crime?
That's called a character arc, and it happens in all good stories.

 

[Bat-Mite]

I think it's more likely that he stopped being Batman in TDKR because he was forced to by the police hunting him all the time.

 

[TheFuture]

No, it doesn't fit your concept of a character you didn't create.
What if this line is said by Wayne after Bane has handed him a truly epic beatdown, and he has lost the drive to fight crime?
That's called a character arc, and it happens in all good stories.

If the beatdown happens early, I can see the Gotham City faithful actually cheering Bane on. That will probably drive Bruce to quit, hell, and you couldn't blame him either.

 

[not_a_victim]

If the beatdown happens early, I can see the Gotham City faithful actually cheering Bane on. That will probably drive Bruce to quit, hell, and you couldn't blame him either.

Exactly.
The city he loves, and put his life on the line for, now hates him, and possibly have reveled in his defeat.
I'd walk away as well.

 

[Solidus]

I can see the Shakespearean tragedy in Batman dying in this movie, but I'd rather do without it. Just the concept of it sounds cheap and gimmicky and I've compared it to Shyamalan before and think that comparison is apt. One of the big arguments for it is that "It's never been done before." Well, we've never seen a superhero sitting on a toilet before, either, so if he goes out, I propose that we kill two birds with one stone and have him die on the commode.

Being a big Alien fan, I can tell you that fans weren't very pleased when the hero of that series was killed off at the end of that trilogy, even though Ripley's death was done in a very tasteful and respectful way. Far from being seen as the best thing ever, if this happened, it could have the potential to backfire and be seen as "teh realizms & teh gritty" run amok. Remember, even though these stories are directed towards a more mature audience, kids still watch them and Nolan has to keep that in mind. You can bet that WB would bring that up and beat that drum for all it's worth if Nolan pitched killing Batman to them.

The other thing is, whenever people talk about Batman's death inspiring the people of Gotham, it sounds extremely derivative of V for Vendetta where everyone is putting on the V masks and marching towards Parliament. Maybe Batman's death wouldn't be so literally inspiring as V's was, but you can bet your ass that the comparison would be made, that Nolan would be accused of ripping it off, etc.

Also, Nolan has stated before that these movies take place in the early part of Batman's career. Now, he could have changed his mind about that, but if not, Batman obviously isn't going to die because his career would have to continue in some fashion beyond the scope of these movies.

Yeah, I can see Batman's death working in the story and it being an amazing event, but I'm very cautious of the concept and not at all fond of it. It's not nearly as unpredictable and novel as people make it out to be, because it was being discussed years before this movie even began filming.

Not really related to the death thing.. but arguments that he wanted to give up Batman in TDK are irrelevant. His only reason for wanting to do that was Rachel and she's gone now. He thought Harvey would take over for him and he'd swoop in and start a "normal life" with Rachel. He was naive. He's seen that dream shattered now and as Rachel predicted, he will realize that he'll always need to be Batman.

First I don't think people were pissed that Ripley died, it was that she died in a film that was inferior to the original two. And honestly that was what pissed people off, not her dying, but dying on such a low note of a film. It was no where near the universal acclaim that the first two had. And though I think Alien 3 is not that bad, its still just left a bad taste with me. just Her journey to the death was not good. The death it self was better than the journey.

Again as Rag said its not necessarily the fact that he dies or not, but the event that surrounds it, how his legacy goes on. If he does die, what it contributes to the story. A heroes death can be wonderfully done, I mean look at other films like Saving Private Ryan, a hero can die and make it mean something. Again I don't care one way or another, what ever works best for the film and story.

And Nolan saying the stuff about the "early years" of Batman I believe was when he was doing Begins. Things have most likely changed since then, even if he said it during TDK. Thoughts change, they have already a few times on what they planned to do. But either way I have faith that Nolan will make it good, he is good with character development.

 

[Mandalore464]

Your post contradicts itself. First you say killing off a popular character is extremely difficult to do, then you go on to say it would be the easy way out for Nolan.

. no it doesn't. It' s difficult to do because it looks like an easy way out. Can't see the contradiction in that

 

[TheFuture]

Exactly.
The city he loves, and put his life on the line for, now hates him, and possibly have reveled in his defeat.
I'd walk away as well.

And a severe beating at that too, what kind of person would revel in someone being nearly beaten to death? And what if they embrace Bane as some kind of violent dictator? Bruce may this as having truly lost the battle for Gotham's soul, and that's why he quits.

 

[not_a_victim]

. no it doesn't. It' s difficult to do because it looks like an easy way out. Can't see the contradiction in that

That makes no sense.