BvS Ben Affleck IS Batman - Part 23

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]484955[/split]

 

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]484329[/split]

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

thats why i was so excited to see snyder's portrayal of the character

This!!

 

[regwec]

No. It's Hong Kong for instance, they're seeing the goddamn batman for the first time ever, and they're certainly not expecting him. They're not trained fighters, they're scared to death, so it's not unrealistic to think these criminals would stand there in shock not knowing what to do but watch Batman take out each of their co-workers/friends.

I love every fight from the trilogy because it feels real to me. I love the fancy stuff too (Snyder will supply this) but it's so obviously rehearsed and slick and fancy and overdone. It may work, but it is what it is.

No. That would not make everyone in the building forget that they were carrying a firearm, nor would it make them respond to gravity differently.

 

[KillerWolf]

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

I second KillerWolf.

 

[jfurioso]

The problem is the Nolan trilogy choreography was trying to meld different levels of pseudo-realism. The fighting system implemented was dependent
on the limitations of the bulky suit, and I did like that they tried to show a no-nonsense/non-flashy approach without flips and fancy kicks, going for a rougher style that would be quickly decisive in one-to-one and close quarters melee combat, but then they combined that with the absurd situations of having that slow, short-range combatant engage multiple opponents in wide open spaces. You cannot have both work well together.

Fighting multiple opponents, specially firearm-wielding ones, is near-impossible under such conditions. You cannot have the "realism" of the armored suit and then engage in absurdly unrealistic open/wide-range combat with multiple armored opponents. It IS a failure of basic choreography conceptualizing.

The films should have either used a lighter suit and given Bats the speed and mobility necessary to at least make those absurd setups seem less cumbersome, OR the confrontations should have been written so that the ambient conditions favored the chosen style and the suit limitations, as in the docks fight in BB or the subway progression in TDKR.

Combat IS part of the narrative in an action film, and particularly a Batman superhero film. You need to incorporate narrative concepts and progression and attention to detail into the combat scenes as they are not merely "flashy distraction" placeholders or arbitrary plot points to get over with. You NEED them to advance the story and CREATE the semblance of the character. Part of the character of Batman is WHAT he can DO. If you fail at portraying that part of the character in a narratively efficient way you are making a disservice much as bad dialogue or an out-of-character phrase or decision in a "normal" scene.

 

[jfurioso]

That infamous gif from TDKR obviously showcases the problems with the choreography as well as some sloppy attitude towards detail-attention in the action scenes. Obviously Batman is supposed to have kicked to a side the hand of the handgun-wielding gun and it shot the guy in the foreground. Yet they forgot to add the muzzle flash and a clear shot noise. Also, its stupid to have Bats just center-rush a spread line of opponents. He should have gone for one in the edge, and used him immediately as shield and throw him against the others.

More importantly, we should have seen the goons FIRE and MISS. It happens, even to trained soldiers. Then we can talk about shock and scary Batman and all that. But the least you could do is have them at least TRY to do their nominal job, of being goons, and not the meta-textual one, of being extras hired to fall down.

And that takes me back to the other big complaint. You make a big deal of the need for the realistic armored Batsuit, but when is that armor shown to be useful in these fight scenes? Do we see glancing shots deflected by the armor at any point? Do we see the armor HELPING Batman, instead of making him look slow and clumsy? So does the element brought in for "realism" make a showing of its "realistic" utility or was it just lip service?

I love the Nolan movies, but even the Burton original had the goons shoot a downed Batman and demonstrate that the armor kept him alive.

If you bring a terrible hindering element like the armored suit and then not make it serve its function ON scene, IN narrative, why bring it at all and deprive us of better action scenes?

 

[Da-Scribe]

The problem is the Nolan trilogy choreography was trying to meld different levels of pseudo-realism. The fighting system implemented was dependent
on the limitations of the bulky suit, and I did like that they tried to show a no-nonsense/non-flashy approach without flips and fancy kicks, going for a rougher style that would be quickly decisive in one-to-one and close quarters melee combat, but then they combined that with the absurd situations of having that slow, short-range combatant engage multiple opponents in wide open spaces. You cannot have both work well together.

Fighting multiple opponents, specially firearm-wielding ones, is near-impossible under such conditions. You cannot have the "realism" of the armored suit and then engage in absurdly unrealistic open/wide-range combat with multiple armored opponents. It IS a failure of basic choreography conceptualizing.

The films should have either used a lighter suit and given Bats the speed and mobility necessary to at least make those absurd setups seem less cumbersome, OR the confrontations should have been written so that the ambient conditions favored the chosen style and the suit limitations, as in the docks fight in BB or the subway progression in TDKR.

Combat IS part of the narrative in an action film, and particularly a Batman superhero film. You need to incorporate narrative concepts and progression and attention to detail into the combat scenes as they are not merely "flashy distraction" placeholders or arbitrary plot points to get over with. You NEED them to advance the story and CREATE the semblance of the character. Part of the character of Batman is WHAT he can DO. If you fail at portraying that part of the character in a narratively efficient way you are making a disservice much as bad dialogue or an out-of-character phrase or decision in a "normal" scene.

Perfectly stated.

 

[shauner111]

No. That would not make everyone in the building forget that they were carrying a firearm, nor would it make them respond to gravity differently.

Gravity? I have no idea what you're talking about.

If you're scared ****less, yes you wouldn't know how to react unless you're in that situation.

 

[Travesty]

No. That would not make everyone in the building forget that they were carrying a firearm, nor would it make them respond to gravity differently.

Just about everyone carrying a gun in the TDKT all forgot they were carrying guns. The worst is when Joker dresses up as a cop, and during the 21 gun salute, Joker shoots Gordon, and every single cop acts like a sissy, and drops their gun and runs away.

It's one of the dumbest things in the trilogy.

 

[C. Lee]

Just about everyone carrying a gun in the TDKT all forgot they were carrying guns. The worst is when Joker dresses up as a cop, and during the 21 gun salute, Joker shoots Gordon, and every single cop acts like a sissy, and drops their gun and runs away.

It's one of the dumbest things in the trilogy.

Glad you said "one" of the dumbest...because there were several other things that ruined the movies for me worse....such as in TDKR where 3000 cops are walking down a street shoulder to shoulder packed in like sardines straight toward a hundred goons armed with automatic rifles...and the gunmen manage to shoot 2 cops.......

 

[Travesty]

 

[KillerMcQueen]

Glad you said "one" of the dumbest...because there were several other things that ruined the movies for me worse....such as in TDKR where 3000 cops are walking down a street shoulder to shoulder packed in like sardines straight toward a hundred goons armed with automatic rifles...and the gunmen manage to shoot 2 cops.......

Yeah, they should've been slaughtered with such a crappy plan as that.

 

[ozne99]

Glad you said "one" of the dumbest...because there were several other things that ruined the movies for me worse....such as in TDKR where 3000 cops are walking down a street shoulder to shoulder packed in like sardines straight toward a hundred goons armed with automatic rifles...and the gunmen manage to shoot 2 cops.......

I'm glad someone else recognized this stupidity. Also, was it really necessary to send all cops down into the sewer?

And the part where Blakes partner gets immediately shot coming out of the sewer, but they take their sweet ass time threatening Blake.

 

[C. Lee]

Sending all (98%) of the cops in Gotham into the sewers was an idiot idea. The fact that they spent 3 months down in there and not only didn't starve to death, but managed to not lose weight nor grow a beard or get their uniforms dirty in that time was a minor miracle also.

 

[Psycho_Sith]

Sending all (98%) of the cops in Gotham into the sewers was an idiot idea. The fact that they spent 3 months down in there and not only didn't starve to death, but managed to not lose weight nor grow a beard or get their uniforms dirty in that time was a minor miracle also.

...which was only one of the myriad of just wrong moments in TDKR. That film was swiss cheese...full of holes that go nowhere and stinky

 

[shauner111]

I'm glad someone else recognized this stupidity. Also, was it really necessary to send all cops down into the sewer?

And the part where Blakes partner gets immediately shot coming out of the sewer, but they take their sweet ass time threatening Blake.

Now that's just nitpicking.

Oh well, i guess some of my buddies are right. You come to this side of the forum, and it's non-stop dissing the previous Batman universe like it's the worst thing known to man.

Was it necessary to send all the cops into the sewer? First off, Gordons in the hospital and not thinking straight, he makes a bad decision. Gothams police have been known in every single Batman movie to make dumb decisions because they under-estimate the threat at hand. It was every available cop by the way. But yes, it was stupid, and that was the point. That's why Bane was able to get the best of them, because it was a stupid move.

Sending all (98%) of the cops in Gotham into the sewers was an idiot idea. The fact that they spent 3 months down in there and not only didn't starve to death, but managed to not lose weight nor grow a beard or get their uniforms dirty in that time was a minor miracle also.

They ate. And they had Blake and probably others helping them out as you see in the movie. Blake is shown being sneaky, aiding them in some way. Use your imagination. Again, the people on here want Nolan to stop telling and just get on with it so we can use our imagination, then when he decides to let us use our imagination with things that could make sense, the fans want him to show/tell instead.

 

[regwec]

Glad you said "one" of the dumbest...because there were several other things that ruined the movies for me worse....such as in TDKR where 3000 cops are walking down a street shoulder to shoulder packed in like sardines straight toward a hundred goons armed with automatic rifles...and the gunmen manage to shoot 2 cops.......

Actually, that is considered to be a perfectly valid battle-tactic.

In the early nineteenth century.

 

[shauner111]

...which was only one of the myriad of just wrong moments in TDKR. That film was swiss cheese...full of holes that go nowhere and stinky

90 percent of the "holes" you will probably list, are probably not even holes. Things where you can use your imagination and easily come up with an explanation is not a plot-hole.

 

[C. Lee]

They ate. And they had Blake and probably others helping them out as you see in the movie. Blake is shown being sneaky, aiding them in some way. Use your imagination. Again, the people on here want Nolan to stop telling and just get on with it so we can use our imagination, then when he decides to let us use our imagination with things that could make sense, the fans want him to show/tell instead.

So....Blake didn't just sneak in enough food to keep 3000 men from starving to death....he managed to sneak in enough food every day for 3 months to keep 3000 people at the same weight they were when they went into the sewers?

He also snuck in razors and hair gel and a change of underwear (no guns....just the essentials to make them look spiffy when they came out).....and I guess he took their uniforms out to the dry cleaners and brought them back before they broke out?

I just recently was pretty sick....I lost 20 pounds in 3 weeks (at home with access to my bed and lounge chair and being waited on by my wife)....those cops were down there for 3 MONTHS and showed no sign of being underfed, they showed no sign of not having access to clean water (they were in a sewer.....a sewer), they showed no signs of not having access to medicine, of having to sleep on cold wet concrete during the winter, of wearing the same clothes every single day for 3 months......It's not about using imagination....I have a great imagination....but sometimes crappy writing is just crappy writing.

 

[Travesty]

Robin John Blake felt the dry cleaning in his bones and stuff.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

So....Blake didn't just sneak in enough food to keep 3000 men from starving to death....he managed to sneak in enough food every day for 3 months to keep 3000 people at the same weight they were when they went into the sewers?

He also snuck in razors and hair gel and a change of underwear.....and I guess he took their uniforms out to the dry cleaners and brought them back before they broke out?

I just recently was pretty sick....I lost 20 pounds in 3 weeks (at home with access to my bed and lounge chair and being waited on by my wife)....those cops were down there for 3 MONTHS and showed no sign of being underfed, they showed no sign of not having access to clean water (they were in a sewer.....a sewer), they showed no signs of not having access to medicine, of having to sleep on cold wet concrete during the winter, of wearing the same clothes every single day for 3 months......It's not about using imagination....I have a great imagination....but sometimes crappy writing is just crappy writing.

The good hygiene clean clothes and shaving equipment I can't explain, but I recall the movie showing Bane's men were supplying the trapped GCPD with food and water.

 

[shauner111]

If it's not Blake, it's Bane's men. Did they eat everyday? Most likely not. But Bane and the League of Shadows aren't about killing people off in a torturous way like that. They'll keep Gotham's people alive until they're blown to bits at once. The cops would obviously get the same treatment as the prisoners that Bruce was trapped with. Did they eat? Yes.

Like i said, now you guys are nitpicking. When you start questioning hair gel and weight loss from cops, medecine. Come on now. It gets a little monotonous. No film is perfect. None.

 

[Psycho_Sith]

90 percent of the "holes" you will probably list, are probably not even holes. Things where you can use your imagination and easily come up with an explanation is not a plot-hole.

The holes I see in TDKR aren't so much quantitative as qualitative. I don't see 486 problems with the film, but I see a few that killed it for me.

I'm not on that "How did Bruce get back to Gotham?!?!?! I don't understand because they didn't show it!" train here.
I'm not saying it's the worst Batman film, just that I had some beef with it.

But as we've all discussed before, we all have beef with CBM's to one degree or another. No movie is infallible.