The Dark Knight Rises Black Mask or Hush?

[Ace of Knaves]

Finally a sensible post. I'm in utter awe at the following Black Mask has gained in the past 3 years. Seriously, when in the world did he become such a highly favored villain?

Because I can wager this all started when BOF reported he was going to be a supposed player in TDK, way back in the rumor stages. Ever since then it's like Black Mask is some sort of top-tier rogue. To be honest this seems like bandwagoning at it's worst. I have NO clue why he has a sudden huge following on these boards.

That's the first I've heard of them rumours.

And what exactly is the problem with Black Mask? People are talking about him being a sadistic, phychopathic mob boss who gets kicks out of torture as though that is a bad thing. Errr...why is that a bad thing? We want our villains to be menacing don't we? We want to see the escalation of freakish enemies after Joker's rampage don't we? What is wrong with having a mob boss/cult leader? I think he could present very interesting possibilities for the next film.

 

[The Guard]

It's not a bad thing. It's just not particularly interesting.

 

[namtaB]

That's the first I've heard of them rumours.

And what exactly is the problem with Black Mask? People are talking about him being a sadistic, phychopathic mob boss who gets kicks out of torture as though that is a bad thing. Errr...why is that a bad thing? We want our villains to be menacing don't we? We want to see the escalation of freakish enemies after Joker's rampage don't we? What is wrong with having a mob boss/cult leader? I think he could present very interesting possibilities for the next film.

Agreed. I didn't know of Black Mask until the rumors since I don't read the comics. If he's a compelling villain then why not include him? I think all this "I'm in awe of the following b/c he was a nobody before the rumors" rhetoric is just a way for some posters to adopt an ersatz elitist attitude - Oh people who support Black Mask are on the bandwagon, they don't read the comicz.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

It's not a bad thing. It's just not particularly interesting.

Well, why isn't it? I find a demented, psychotic, sadistic mob boss/cult leader who has ties to Bruce Wayne and who is also very wealthy and has his own company to rival W.E much more interesting than a whiney little brat who is pissed off that his parents didn't die.

 

[Steelsheen]

Is this from Hush or something else, b/c from his origin book I just gathered that he hated Batman b/c his parents died and he got their money. Meanwhile he tried to kill his parents and failed. IDK maybe I have misunderstood all this time.

thats exactly it.

personally i prefer Hush, but i agree that quite a bit of tweaking is needed if they are to adapt him on film. not necessarily reinventing his backstory mind you, but more of "enhancing" it. there's just something more interesting about a child sociopath that juxtaposes against Bruce's own experience and see them as grown men, how someone who is more tragic and therefore has greater cause to be a evil (Batman) actually becomes the hero whereas someone who was supposed to have lived a life of love and privilege grows into a monster.

and again, a sociopath child is a goldmine of interesting stories and theories. are sociopaths that young born or bred? stuff like this are right up the Nolans' alley.

 

[ronny]

Introduce both Tommy Elliot and Roman Sionis in the same film. Both at one of Bruce's parties.
They're both socialites and they both have similar personaities. It's best to introduce them before we see their vilainous side. otherwise it's just like: "Hey Bruce! Remember that beloved childhood friend of yours? Well now he's evil!"
Cameo first, story later.
Or maybe more than a cameo. Imagine Bruce, injured, going to Dr. Elliot for help. It would be so ****ed up for the people who knew what he was actually thinking. They could have a ot of fun with the character.

 

[Crook]

That's the first I've heard of them rumours.

I'm just going by your join date, but it seems you weren't even around when the rumors of him first popped up.

And what exactly is the problem with Black Mask? People are talking about him being a sadistic, phychopathic mob boss who gets kicks out of torture as though that is a bad thing. Errr...why is that a bad thing? We want our villains to be menacing don't we? We want to see the escalation of freakish enemies after Joker's rampage don't we? What is wrong with having a mob boss/cult leader? I think he could present very interesting possibilities for the next film.

Because the psychotic mob boss isn't terribly captivating to me. It has it's cool moments, but in the end it's not something new. More importantly, it's not particularly "Batman". I'd rather get a villain that isn't like the ones we've seen in cinema. Considering Bats vast rogues gallery, to end up with Black Mask is underwhelming.

Agreed. I didn't know of Black Mask until the rumors since I don't read the comics. If he's a compelling villain then why not include him? I think all this "I'm in awe of the following b/c he was a nobody before the rumors" rhetoric is just a way for some posters to adopt an ersatz elitist attitude - Oh people who support Black Mask are on the bandwagon, they don't read the comicz.

You'd be wrong. I don't really care if you follow the comics or not, because I'm not a particularly avid reader either. But I do keep up with the character arcs if I have the chance.

I'm just not seeing the big deal over this guy. Past the mask gimmick and his penchant for violence, he's not interesting. He doesn't have a quirk to make him stand out, a strong connection with Bruce, or any layer of intriguing depth. When this is the favored guy to follow the Joker, then yes, I am going to be perplexed.

thats exactly it.

personally i prefer Hush, but i agree that quite a bit of tweaking is needed if they are to adapt him on film. not necessarily reinventing his backstory mind you, but more of "enhancing" it. there's just something more interesting about a child sociopath that juxtaposes against Bruce's own experience and see them as grown men, how someone who is more tragic and therefore has greater cause to be a evil (Batman) actually becomes the hero whereas someone who was supposed to have lived a life of love and privilege grows into a monster.

and again, a sociopath child is a goldmine of interesting stories and theories. are sociopaths that young born or bred? stuff like this are right up the Nolans' alley.

There ya go. Saved me the time to write it.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

When it's put that way, yea Hush could be pretty interesting. But what of his child-hood friendship with Bruce? If that had been touched on in BB it would be ok, but what, he just appears out of no where. "Oh hi viewers I'm Tommy Elliot, Bruce Wayne's childhood friend! I was never mentioned before but hey, that doesn't matter right?". And as Bruce said in TDK "Where's Rachel Dawes? Come here. Rachel is my oldest friend..." Well, what about Tommy Elliot Bruce?

 

[ronny]

Bruce is a distant sort of person. Perhaps Tommy's friendship meant very little to him. Or maybe they could play it that he has a feeling that something's not right wit the guy but can't pin it down.
I mean, Hush has been dressing up tramps in Batman costumes and then hunting them down. The guy is deranged. But definently a villain for a film further in the future.

 

[batman11]

"Oh hi viewers I'm Tommy Elliot, Bruce Wayne's childhood friend! I was never mentioned before but hey, that doesn't matter right?". And as Bruce said in TDK "Where's Rachel Dawes? Come here. Rachel is my oldest friend..." Well, what about Tommy Elliot Bruce?

Well, to Steelsheen's credit, all he was doing was defending Hush. I assume that the point of this thread is about Black Mask vs. Hush, and discussing that if one of these characters was going to be used, which would you choose. It is is possible to defend something without actually wanting it to become a reality. For instance, let's say the I'm a Clippers fan, and the Lakers and the Celtics are in the finals. You ask me who I want to win. Obviously, I want the Clippers to win, but seeing as that outcome is impossible, the point of the discussion would be for me to give reasoning for another choice. Personally, I don't want to see Black Mask or Hush (I agree with your points BTW) appear in the next one, but that's not the point of the thread.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

No worries

But yea, I just thought I'd throw that out there. Didn't mean to come across arrogant or nothing, I tried to be light hearted about it

 

[batman11]

No worries

But yea, I just thought I'd throw that out there. Didn't mean to come across arrogant or nothing, I tried to be light hearted about it

Nah, don't worry about it bro, I just felt like chiming in.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Sweet.

 

[The Guard]

Well, why isn't it? I find a demented, psychotic, sadistic mob boss/cult leader who has ties to Bruce Wayne and who is also very wealthy and has his own company to rival W.E much more interesting than a whiney little brat who is pissed off that his parents didn't die.

Ok...if you're going to "compare" them like that...

Wow.

I mean, really?

"I'm going to list every remote character element of Black Mask, but only one of Tommy's"?

That's a fair comparison.

Why isn't Black Mask being a sadistic mob boss interesting? Because it's not interesting. It's not clever. It's a massive cliche. I've seen it dozens and dozens of times, if not more. There's nothing interesting behind it psychologically, and there's nothing interesting about it.

Could there be? Maybe, but the point is...there isn't.

When we look at the source material, what Roman Sionis became is a cliche, both in the real world, and in the Batman one. What Hush became is not so cliche. Not at all.

Therein lies the difference.

If that had been touched on in BB it would be ok, but what, he just appears out of no where. "Oh hi viewers I'm Tommy Elliot, Bruce Wayne's childhood friend! I was never mentioned before but hey, that doesn't matter right?". And as Bruce said in TDK "Where's Rachel Dawes? Come here. Rachel is my oldest friend..." Well, what about Tommy Elliot Bruce?

Thomas Elliot came out of the BLUE in the comics, and no one batted an eye. Easy fix in the movie franchise. It's never said that Rachel is Bruce's ONLY childhood friend.

That said, I'm not advocating using Hush. But you could.

 

[bunk]

I'd prefer neither. C list villains need not apply for this movie as far as I'm concerned.

 

[The Major]

Why isn't Black Mask being a sadistic mob boss interesting? Because it's not interesting. It's not clever. It's a massive cliche. I've seen it dozens and dozens of times, if not more. There's nothing interesting behind it psychologically, and there's nothing interesting about it.

Could there be? Maybe, but the point is...there isn't.

When we look at the source material, what Roman Sionis became is a cliche, both in the real world, and in the Batman one. What Hush became is not so cliche. Not at all.

Therein lies the difference.

It's far to early to tell whether Hush will become a cliche. He's only been a Batman enemy for a year? Two? Black Mask has been around since 1985.

 

[The Major]

I'd prefer neither. C list villains need not apply for this movie as far as I'm concerned.

Who would you consider C list villains not worthy enough to be in the sequel?

 

[batman11]

It's far to early to tell whether Hush will become a cliche. He's only been a Batman enemy for a year? Two? Black Mask has been around since 1985.

Hush has been around since 2002 actually.

 

[The Major]

Hush has been around since 2002 actually.

My mistake.

Still, he hasn't been used very much that I can think of. He had his debut, he met Prometheus and he ripped Catwoman's heart out recently.

Does he have any story line that shows he's impressive like BM can be? I became a fan of BM during Brubaker's Catwoman run. Has he done anything great like that yet?

 

[The Guard]

You cannot simply forget about what Hush began as when assessing him as a character. I could care less what he might become when assessing him now. Black Mask has been a cliche, was conceived a cliche, and is still one still.

Hush has been used a ton. He has like, seven arcs devoted to him.

 

[Majik1387]

And I'm sure all 7 of them suck as much as his character does.