The Dark Knight Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

[Rocketman]

You know what's funny? I can't picture Katie saying the same lines that Maggie had in the script. It's like they weren't even meant for Katie to begin with.

The way Maggie delivers the line to Harvey, "Come on, your Gotham's D.A. You're not getting shot at, you're not doing your job right... Well, we could take the rest of the afternoon off." The way Maggie and Eckhart are walking, and how Maggie is being super-seductive and sexy in her live delivery... it seems so natural with her. There's no way Katie could've pulled that off.

I think Katie has more of a "baby face" where she seems more like a kid, and therefore, she can't scream "sexual" to me. She's just too "cute", whereas Maggie seems older and more mature, and just a flat-out sex kitten. I can't believe that there are people who actually think that Maggie Gyllenhaal isn't attractive. She's freaking gorgeous.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I can't believe that there are people who actually think that Maggie Gyllenhaal isn't attractive. She's freaking gorgeous.

To be honest I have yet to meet someone in person who would find her atractive in TDK. Of course its subjective but for me shes a complete turnoff and an old lady, looking like shes even past Cougar stages. And those bags under her eyes

 

[El Payaso]

And why exactly does the character need tobe pretty?

 

[Godzilla2014]

And why exactly does the character need tobe pretty?

That's a valid point.

Also, shouldn't there be a poll in this thread?

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I would have preferred Katie to be in TDK. I thoroughly liked the Rachel Dawes character in Batman Begins she seemed to have the most depth in a Batman film. She did come off as young, but at least she was just playing an assistant DA and not a judge. I liked how Rachel had a firm grip on right and wrong and how she unintentionally influenced Batman's morals and the lines he will not cross. She really seemed to be on the same length of Gordon in the morals category. In TDK she served no purpose and her character was much less likable; she still was unconvincing as a DA and I greatly feel that if she wasn't there she wouldn't be missed. I also felt using Rachel as the cause of Harvey becoming a villain was laughable; it's not like she is anyone's Lois Lane and their relationship did not come across as deep in any way.
As for Maggie's looks, I admit I did find it odd and unbelievable that Harvey Dent and Bruce Wayne would even want to be with this chick, her looks are a 2 and her personality is even less. Then you throw in the Joker who makes comments about how good looking she is and I just have to think he is blind.

 

[The Joker]

I thoroughly liked the Rachel Dawes character in Batman Begins she seemed to have the most depth in a Batman film.

I stopped reading here

 

[Travesty]

I was never a big fan of the character, so either way.....I'm glade she's dead! HaHAhaha! I'm glade she's dead, I'm glad she's dead. BAahahAhHaAHAHAAahaha!.......

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I stopped reading here

I left out The most depth for a female love interest of Batman's who wasn't trying to play vigilante with him.
Not the most depth of all characters in a Batman film.

 

[The Joker]

Ok, that makes more sense. So you're basically saying she's deeper than every on screen love interest so far except for Catwoman.

 

[GothamAlleys]

And why exactly does the character need tobe pretty?

She doesnt. At all. And I never said she has to. Im just saying she wasnt in TDK

And what looks did in BB is made her pleasant to look at and added the extra dimension to the character which I already spoke about

 

[GothamAlleys]

She did come off as young, but at least she was just playing an assistant DA and not a judge. I liked how Rachel had a firm grip on right and wrong and how she unintentionally influenced Batman's morals and the lines he will not cross. She really seemed to be on the same length of Gordon in the morals category. In TDK she served no purpose and her character was much less likable; she still was unconvincing as a DA and I greatly feel that if she wasn't there she wouldn't be missed.

As for Maggie's looks, I admit I did find it odd and unbelievable that Harvey Dent and Bruce Wayne would even want to be with this chick, her looks are a 2 and her personality is even less. Then you throw in the Joker who makes comments about how good looking she is and I just have to think he is blind.

I fully agree

 

[El Payaso]

She doesnt. At all. And I never said she has to. Im just saying she wasnt in TDK

That's the thing. When you bring that point up again and again one starts to think it's important for you.

And what looks did in BB is made her pleasant to look at and added the extra dimension to the character which I already spoke about

Excuse me. You think the character doesn't need to be externally beautiful but you think it actually needs it so it can be a more interesting character?

Let me re-ask, how does being externally beautiful make Rachel a more interesting character?

 

[The Joker]

You know what they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Excuse me. You think the character doesn't need to be externally beautiful but you think it actually needs it so it can be a more interesting character?

Let me re-ask, how does being externally beautiful make Rachel a more interesting character?

You misread my post again. I never said anything about being necessary to be pretty. I said the LOOKS in this case added more dimension, and let me repeat it - it added more dimension because it added that surprising and unusual "small puppy barking the loudest" element I described multiple times already, plus it makes Rachel pleasant to look at. I never said someone has to be beautiful, I said in this case the looks add an additional layer to the character

 

[The Joker]

I don't think her looks added anything to the character. I never judge a character based on looks, when it's irrelevant to the character's characterization, which in Rachel's case it was.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I don't think her looks added anything to the character. I never judge a character based on looks, when it's irrelevant to the character's characterization, which in Rachel's case it was.

What I meant was the whole "seemingly innocent and fragile, yet stronger than a giant" approach. Its an extra layer that Katie's delicate looks added. It may seem trivial, but its still an extra layer and I wouldnt agree that its trivial. I think it was very substantial to the character development in BB because we dont know right away how Rachel is. Then we see her bravery and fiesty character and its not what you would expect from a seemingly harmless and innocent character like this girl. Katie does a lot with the character, shows us her attitude but also shows its a lid, a layer hiding a person with great wisdom and someone who loves and want to be loved, and someone who can also be very sweet. She can be very harsh and tough on Bruce, but then she can be a very understanding, caring and sweet for him as well.

Maggie does nothing with the character I think. I cant think of one instance in TDK where she wouldnt have a PMS or attitude towards Bruce. Every single time they meet or see each other she is either annoyed, dismissive or pissed off towards him. For me she portrays a very dime a dozen character and a very unlikeable one. A typical, average, ordinary, worn out woman from DA's office. She portrays no depth and no layers with her portrayal in any way. Katie had many flavors and facets in her portrayal, Maggie plays it straight and plays a generic character

 

[The Joker]

What I meant was the whole "seemingly innocent and fragile, yet stronger than a giant" approach. Its an extra layer that Katie's delicate looks added. It may seem trivial, but its still an extra layer and I wouldnt agree that its trivial. I think it was very substantial to the character development in BB because we dont know right away how Rachel is. Then we see her bravery and fiesty character and its not what you would expect from a seemingly harmless and innocent character like this girl. Katie does a lot with the character, shows us her attitude but also shows its a lid, a layer hiding a person with great wisdom and someone who loves and want to be loved, and someone who can also be very sweet. She can be very harsh and tough on Bruce, but then she can be a very understanding, caring and sweet for him as well.

Maggie does nothing with the character I think. I cant think of one instance in TDK where she wouldnt have a PMS or attitude towards Bruce. Every single time they meet or see each other she is either annoyed, dismissive or pissed off towards him. For me she portrays a very dime a dozen character and a very unlikeable one. A typical, average, ordinary, worn out woman from DA's office. She portrays no depth and no layers with her portrayal in any way. Katie had many flavors and facets in her portrayal, Maggie plays it straight and plays a generic character

Well now lets see:

- Katie's first scene; She's trying to tell Bruce not to go to Chill's trial, and justifying him getting off on a technicality so they can get Carmine Falcone
- Second scene, she's slapping him in the face for wanting to kill Chill, and saying his father would be ashamed of him
- When they are reunited after he returns years later, she tells him he's too busy swimming with women, and what he does defines him
- When she delivers his birthday gift to him; "You enjoy your party, Bruce. Some of us have work to do"
- Then their final scene, where she tells him once he stops being Batman they can be together

What exactly does Katie do with the character other than nag Bruce, and take pot shots at his behavior every chance she gets? She can't even contain herself when she's just bringing him a gift on his birthday.

In TDK, the only time Rachel gets flat out upset with Bruce and has harsh words about him is when he lets Harvey take the fall for Batman.

 

[The Joker]

EDIT

Damn Hype lag!

 

[GothamAlleys]

Well now lets see:

- Katie's first scene; She's trying to tell Bruce not to go to Chill's trial, and justifying him getting off on a technicality so they can get Carmine Falcone
- Second scene, she's slapping him in the face for wanting to kill Chill, and saying his father would be ashamed of him
- When they are reunited after he returns years later, she tells him he's too busy swimming with women, and what he does defines him
- When she delivers his birthday gift to him; "You enjoy your party, Bruce. Some of us have work to do"
- Then their final scene, where she tells him once he stops being Batman they can be together

What exactly does Katie do with the character other than nag Bruce, and take pot shots at his behavior every chance she gets? She can't even contain herself when she's just bringing him a gift on his birthday.

In TDK, the only time Rachel gets flat out upset with Bruce and has harsh words about him is when he lets Harvey take the fall for Batman.

She has variety in her personality, she has different colors. She gives Bruce both the Tough love and the delicate love. She is harsh and cold on him when theyre driving in a car and when she meets him by the hotel, at the same time shes completely vulnerable, understanding and sweet when they first meet before Chill's trial and when theyre both talking on the ruins of his mansion. The ONLY thing Maggie did was being annoyed and bi0tchy towards him. Thats what Im talking about, with her its just one color, no layers

 

[The Joker]

We must have been looking at two different characters then, man. Because all I saw was a prima donna who was always dictating to Bruce what he should do, and chastising him for what he wasn't doing.

She never came across as "sweet" or vulnerable or even understanding. It was only when she learned he was Batman did she show any kind of understanding, and even then she was placing restrictions on them by saying once he stops being Batman they can be together.

 

[GothamAlleys]

We must have been looking at two different characters then, man. Because all I saw was a prima donna who was always dictating to Bruce what he should do, and chastising him for what he wasn't doing.

In that case Alfred is also that prima donna. She was like a guide, a parent to him when he needed it. I guess it depends on POV, but like Nolan said, Rachel was Bruce's moral guide. Rachel was extremely wise and helped Bruce "tune up" when he got lost. She supported him when he needed it (she understood and accepted his will to attend the trial), she was very sweet and open to him (ending scene) and also when he deserved it she was harsh on him and gave him tough love and criticized him when he deserved it. The wise words of "its not who you are underneath" came from her, the whole "Bruce is your mask" statement did as well. She was sometimes sweet, sometims arrogant, sometime tough, sometime supportive, sometime criticizing. She was a trusted, childhood friend, love interest and parent at the same time

Maggie on the other hand didnt even understand Bruce (Harvey may not know when youre making fun of him but I do) and was constantly dismissive and annoyed by even his presence ("Yeah, fancy that"), not even listening to him and being so insensitive to his feelings, not even wanting to talk (Dont make me your only hope for a normal life), being so cold about it and just leaving him standing alone, not even willing to support him with some words and friendly talk or advice. She had only one dimension, one color, and that was a dime a dozen DA office worker who clearly didnt want anything to do with Bruce at all. And nothing but being mean to Bruce was the only thing she did

 

[The Joker]

No, that's not what Alfred was because that's not what Alfred did for 90% of his screen time, like Rachel did. In fact there's only three scenes where Alfred gets annoyed with Bruce:

- When Bruce challenged Alfred about why he "Gives a damn"
- Bruce's reckless behavior in the Tumbler during the Cop car chase
- When Bruce wanted to send the party guests home early

Every single scene that featured Katie's Rachel with Bruce, except for the end scene, she was chastising him about something. You call her being sweet only after she learns he had been trying to help the city all along, and all her chastising was for nothing. Of course she's being "sweet". She just learned she was wrong for being such a nagging fish wife to him all through the movie.

In TDK, where did Rachel not understand Bruce? The only time she question his actions was when he let Harvey take the fall for Batman. Who wouldn't question such a thing?

 

[GothamAlleys]

Katie was sweet to Bruce when they first met after he came back from Cambridge and she accepted his will. And they didnt really meet much in the movie, only 4 times, 2 out of which she was nice, 2 which she was mean, and mean for a reason. She wasnt wrong. She gave him a good speech and moral beating in the car when he was young and the other time passed him a good saying that he accepted and repeated later

As for Maggie, its not that she doesnt understand him, its just that she doesnt even wanna listen and thinks of him wrongly. She though Bruce was mean to Dent, she assumed the worst of Bruce from the start. She coldly just walked away from him when he was opening up and trying to talk to her, just leaving him alone at the balcony. She didnt even wanna tell him that shes not gonna be with him face to face, she just wanted to get it done by passing him a letter and just get rid of him this way. All she did was either ignore him or dismiss him

 

[The Joker]

We're starting to repeat ourselves now, mate. Lets just agree to disagree

 

[storyteller]

Maggie in TDK actually looks like a real person that you can find anywhere so you can care far more about Bruce and Harvey being attracted to her for her personality and not just her looks. Also Katie just seemed young. Like she could still pass for a college student while Bruce, Harvey, and Maggie look like they are in their late 20's early 30's.

I think in Begins though the character simply served no purpose in the sequel she actually did.