Dream Team League (Discussion)

[Harlekin]

The language was a bit too flowery in some cases, making it a bit confusing.

But y'know, obviously it sucks and my write-up is ten times better.

 

[Dark Gog]

I was going for a Zelazny-ish feel, but that faded early-on since I could never find the time to put it all down at once. (And also 'cause I'm not Zelazny.)

I suppose that you can see the results.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm fine with saying GL's can't use random obscure feats that have only shown up a couple times in 60 years, if that's what you're suggesting. But I'd rather officially rule that people can't do that stuff instead of just assuming they won't when we're assessing how powerful GL's are.

Again, if GL's are mostly limited to constructs, I don't see the problem with the Superman-type GLs. Don't we already have a DTL-legal Superman-type character with constructs, namely Samaritan?

Yeah, Samaritan's legal because all he has is some sort of energy web thingy that he can manipulate like very basic constructs. He can't do constructs on the level of a GL, and he doesn't have all the other stuff GLs can do.

Also, if we're limiting GLs solely to constructs and maybe phasing or whatever else they regularly use, there's no way they're ubers.

 

[XFanTim]

Yeah, Samaritan's legal because all he has is some sort of energy web thingy that he can manipulate like very basic constructs. He can't do constructs on the level of a GL, and he doesn't have all the other stuff GLs can do.

Also, if we're limiting GLs solely to constructs and maybe phasing or whatever else they regularly use, there's no way they're ubers.

Really, standard GL powers don't rise to the level of uber? I don't buy that. I know I've seen GLs beat uber level bruisers without having to break out any really obscure powers.

I'm not sure I really see the difference between "basic" constructs and advanced constructs as far as combat usefulness. If Kyle makes a construct laser rifle and blasts someone, is it really different than just shooting an energy blast? If he makes a dragon swoop down and grab them, is it really any different than making a big claw that grabs them? The main advantage of complex constructs that springs to mind is you can use them like illusions to trick people, and that's not such a big deal. Unless we're talking about Quasar making a Galactus-depowering machine and stuff like that, which no one's going to vote for anyway.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, mostly because Quasar didn't know how to make it without Reed Richards.

Anyway, if you're going to re-evaluate all of the construct-makers across the board to uber, would that mean the Invisible Woman is uber? We've seen GLs beat uber-level bruisers without using obscure powers, but we've also seen them get their asses kicked in situations where simply keeping their force field up would've saved them just as often, if not more often. Without adding in their additional feats, like closing black holes, their average is pretty weak.

 

[Nightwing]

No, but we've limited them. No more blitzing. No more team-wide protections (unless actually shown in the comics). No unbreakable shields.

what about the whole being untouchable?i mean its basically a battle of who has the most powerful mage. One person gets strange another gets a more powerful version and so on until they are just touching the tuber bar.I get really narked with mages cos even if they dont have an unbreakable shield people still cant get close to them...

 

[XFanTim]

Yeah, mostly because Quasar didn't know how to make it without Reed Richards.

Yeah, but even if you have Quasar and Reed on your team, if you have him make a device to depower my ubers I'm calling bull****. That would be taking a one-time cheesy plot device and pretending it's a legitimate attack.

Anyway, if you're going to re-evaluate all of the construct-makers across the board to uber, would that mean the Invisible Woman is uber?

I'm not saying constructs = uber, necessarily, my point was more that I'm not sure having more complex consructs would push GL-Supes to tuber if Samaritan is uber. But I don't really know what Samaritan can do.

As for Invisible Woman, I still see her as medium. She has less offensive capabilities than a GL (she can't even shoot energy blasts, for one thing), and as good as her forcefield is I don't think it's as strong as Quasar's or a GL's.

We've seen GLs beat uber-level bruisers without using obscure powers, but we've also seen them get their asses kicked in situations where simply keeping their force field up would've saved them just as often, if not more often. Without adding in their additional feats, like closing black holes, their average is pretty weak.

As I've said before, win/loss record means less to me than what they're capable of. If they lose a fight because they stupidly drop their shield, that's hardly relevant, because that should never happen in the DTL.

Feats like black hole closing don't matter much to me -- how often is that going to come up? I'm talking things like were mentioned in that Hal respect thread I linked -- size changing of themselves and others, teleportation, matter transmutation, etc. I don't think people should be using those unless they're standard GL feats -- but if they are going to use all that stuff, I don't want them combining it with a Superman-level character.

One of the best arguments X had for why the Surfer was legit is that he doesn't actually fight at Superman or Flash type speed, even though he can fly faster than that. Likewise, Dr. Strange can only react so fast if we don't allow cheesy time-manipulation based speed-ups. So that means a superspeed brick like Superman or Doomsday could still give those guys a headache. If you take a guy with Superman-level reaction time and add transmutation/teleportation/phasing/forcefields/shrinking/growing/etc., that's pushing him over the tuber bar in my opinion.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

So you're basically just saying we should limit GLs who also have other powers to the standard, regularly used ring powers?

 

[XFanTim]

To clarify my point on standard GL feats -- I'm not saying every GL should have exactly the same abilities. Of course the more experienced ones can do a bit more. But just because Hal does something twice in his career, it doesn't mean that's even a standard Hal feat. That'd be like me saying Xavier has telekinesis just because Stan Lee occasionally forgot what "telepathy" meant in the early X-Men issues.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I think that'd be perfectly fine if the comics hadn't come out and said that Xavier didn't have telekinesis later on. Unless the feats are retconned out at some later date, why shouldn't those characters be able to use them? Just because someone doesn't use something too often, doesn't mean they can't use it.

 

[XFanTim]

So you're basically just saying we should limit GLs who also have other powers to the standard, regularly used ring powers?

I'm saying we should limit every GL to that particular GLs standard powerset, not allowing some random power they pulled out of their ass on one or two occasions over the course of a decade or more.

For GLs without a lot of appearances, we should limit them to whatever is standard for a generic GL.

I don't know GLs well enough to know exactly what all the standard powers are. If it's basically energy blasts, shields, and constructs, then I think the Supes-GL types might be legit ubers. If it's a bunch of other stuff like matter transmutation, then I think they're probably tuber. If we're in part only allowing Silver Surfer because he doesn't fight at Superman-level speed, than a Superman-speed character with herald type powers is tuber.

I'm not saying we should limit a characters power to allow them to fit under the uber/tuber bar. If they're tuber, they're tuber.

 

[XFanTim]

So really there are four questions:

(1) Should someone like Hal be able to use obscure feats like shrinking someone because he used it once or twice over the course of several decades? (I also mentioned teleportation and matter transmutation as specific examples.)

(2) If so, should other GLs (at least other experienced GLs) be able to do the same thing?

(3) Can people like Superman-GL or Daxamite-GL do that stuff?

(4) Are Superman-GL and Daxamite-GL tuber?

I'm saying:
(1) Probably not
(2) No
(3) No
(4) No, if the answer to 3 is no.

Even if the answer to (1) is yes, my answer to (4) is only contingent on how we answer (3), if you see what I mean.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Okay, I got you. My answers would be (1) yes, unless he's been retconned to not be able to do those things later; (2) only if they've shown the ability to do the same thing themselves; (3) probably not, if they've only appeared for a little while; and (4) not if they only have the basic energy projection and construct powers.

Basically, I see all GLs as unique. Different levels of experience and willpower yield different results. Geoff Johns portrayed this wonderfully in GL: Rebirth. Kilowog, for example, is apparently the only major Green Lantern whose ring produces sound because, I guess, whatever makes Kilowog Kilowog makes him want his ring to make sounds. Similarly, if only Hal has ever shown the ability to shrink things with his ring, then it's presumably something unique to Hal's experiences, imagination, and will that allow him to do so. Maybe other experienced GLs could do the same, but if they never thought to do it before, why would they in a DTL match?

 

[XFanTim]

I think that'd be perfectly fine if the comics hadn't come out and said that Xavier didn't have telekinesis later on. Unless the feats are retconned out at some later date, why shouldn't those characters be able to use them? Just because someone doesn't use something too often, doesn't mean they can't use it.

What if it's never explicitly stated that he can't, but he routinely doesn't use it when he obviously should? Like Thor using superspeed once, but basically never fighting at superspeed. To me the logical assumption is that most writers don't consider superspeed one of Thor's powers -- not that they all think he has it but just don't have him using it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

How many major comic characters really use super-speed in fights, though? Superman has it, but 9 times out of 10 he doesn't run circles around an opponent and defeat them in ten seconds. He's almost always portrayed fighting at normal speed. It's only people who really specialize in super-speed, like the Flashes, Quicksilver, Speed, etc. who use it regularly in fights. Hell, Monica Rambeau could turn herself into light and, obviously, move at light speed, but she almost always just did it to travel from place to place, not in a fight. She'd turn into other forms of energy and basically throw blasts of... um, herself, I guess, around at normal speed. Part of that, I think, just comes from the fact that it's hard to convey speed on a comic page, but for the purposes of the DTL, we have to assume they're just not using their super-speed for some reason.

So yeah, if a character has the power and doesn't use it often, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to use it at all. Granted, if they rarely ever use it in the comics, I would expect them to rarely ever use it in the DTL--for example, I don't think I had Thor use super-speed unless he was fighting a super-fast opponent, and even then, his opponent would have to use it first and he'd just speed up to match them (up to just shy of light speed, since he was declared to be fast as the lightning). Similarly, we could just ask that owners use discretion and basically vote against whomever we think is using obscure powers out of line. I don't see a need to consciously ban the use of a power simply because a character only used it a few times.

 

[Khellendros]

what about the whole being untouchable?i mean its basically a battle of who has the most powerful mage. One person gets strange another gets a more powerful version and so on until they are just touching the tuber bar.I get really narked with mages cos even if they dont have an unbreakable shield people still cant get close to them...

Wow. You really seem to be talking out of your ass. Who has done this with their mages during this season? You keeping bringing up these generalized arguments, but don't seem to have any CURRENT examples to point to.

So really there are four questions:

(1) Should someone like Hal be able to use obscure feats like shrinking someone because he used it once or twice over the course of several decades? (I also mentioned teleportation and matter transmutation as specific examples.)

(2) If so, should other GLs (at least other experienced GLs) be able to do the same thing?

(3) Can people like Superman-GL or Daxamite-GL do that stuff?

(4) Are Superman-GL and Daxamite-GL tuber?

1)Yes.
2)No.
3)Not unless it's been shown/implied that they can
4)Same as you, no if number three is no. Yes, if they can be Superman+Hal.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

He's probably referring to previous seasons, where the mages have been pretty unstoppable unless you had a mage of your own.

 

[Khellendros]

He's probably referring to previous seasons, where the mages have been pretty unstoppable unless you had a mage of your own.

I'm aware of that, I just want him to admit it. He's obviously not paying a lot of attention to this thread because he didn't answer the last question I asked him. So, I'm going to keep calling him out on it until he answers satisfactorily.

 

[X]

Sometimes I feel we get way too in-depth over banal things.

 

[Who?]

Sometimes I feel we get way too in-depth over banal things.

What is this "banal"? Is this some new form of anal that you have found?

 

[Nightwing]

I'm aware of that, I just want him to admit it. He's obviously not paying a lot of attention to this thread because he didn't answer the last question I asked him. So, I'm going to keep calling him out on it until he answers satisfactorily.

Firstly what was the first question you asked me? and no i havent been keeping fully upto date with the thread cos i cant spend all hours of the day sat at my computer.

Secondly i am referring to previous seasons and the way that this season seems to be panning out....all other areas seem to be combatable or atleast easy enough to stand up to with general strength speed etc but when it comes to magic unless you have a mage to draft in there then you cant stop it...which means you are forced to pick up a character you dont really want or need.

which is annoying

 

[XFanTim]

I sympathize, Nightwing -- I was sick to death of always writing mage-vs-mage fights in previous seasons, yet I drafted Loki just in case I needed him to fight another mage.

But some people are pretty attached to the mages . . . let's see how this season pans out before we take more drastic action against them. I for one will be much more likely than in the past to vote against someone for bull**** uses of mages, especially if their opponent calls them on it. If enough of us resolve not to let mages get away with anything when we're casting our votes, the problem may go away without an outright ban.

(I'm not saying we should vote against someone just for using a mage -- only for abusing one like they've been abused in the past.)

 

[XFanTim]

How many major comic characters really use super-speed in fights, though? Superman has it, but 9 times out of 10 he doesn't run circles around an opponent and defeat them in ten seconds. He's almost always portrayed fighting at normal speed. It's only people who really specialize in super-speed, like the Flashes, Quicksilver, Speed, etc. who use it regularly in fights. Hell, Monica Rambeau could turn herself into light and, obviously, move at light speed, but she almost always just did it to travel from place to place, not in a fight. She'd turn into other forms of energy and basically throw blasts of... um, herself, I guess, around at normal speed. Part of that, I think, just comes from the fact that it's hard to convey speed on a comic page, but for the purposes of the DTL, we have to assume they're just not using their super-speed for some reason.

So yeah, if a character has the power and doesn't use it often, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to use it at all. Granted, if they rarely ever use it in the comics, I would expect them to rarely ever use it in the DTL--for example, I don't think I had Thor use super-speed unless he was fighting a super-fast opponent, and even then, his opponent would have to use it first and he'd just speed up to match them (up to just shy of light speed, since he was declared to be fast as the lightning). Similarly, we could just ask that owners use discretion and basically vote against whomever we think is using obscure powers out of line. I don't see a need to consciously ban the use of a power simply because a character only used it a few times.

Superman stupidly forgets about his superspeed all the time, but it's still much better established that he has it than it is for Thor.

That said, I see your point. Ultimately, I think we can trust the voters to call people on it if they're taking a character too far afield from how he's portrayed in the comics. If you have Thor use superspeed, the onus is on you to convince the voters that he would use superspeed in that situation.

Regarding GLs I'm fine with a concensus of:
- Any specific GL can do feats he's been shown to do in the comics
- These feats don't necessarily transfer -- e.g., Kyle can't do something just because Hal's done it.
- GLs we haven't seen much of are assumed to have only the more basic GL abilities until proven otherwise.
- Superman+basic GL = legitimate uber. Superman+Hal Jordan = too uber.

 

[Khellendros]

and the way that this season seems to be panning out....all other areas seem to be combatable or atleast easy enough to stand up to with general strength speed etc but when it comes to magic unless you have a mage to draft in there then you cant stop it...which means you are forced to pick up a character you dont really want or need.

I'll ask for the third time: What, SPECIFICALLY has happened in this season to give you the impression that Uber-level mages are the unbeatable characters they were in the past? Pointing to the problems of previous seasons is invalid because things have changed.

 

[XFanTim]

Maybe Nightwing and others would benefit from some more ideas for how to fight mages without using your own mages.

A couple of specific weaknesses of mages that spring to my mind:
- Most haven't been shown to have Superman or Flash level reaction time, so you can potentially get in an attack before they can respond
- While their shields could stop most head-on attacks, I'm not sure they'd be able to stop:
-- Someone teleporting past the shield -- e.g., port a miniature bomb right into Strange's head -- or port his head clean off his shoulders
-- Attacks that don't have to fly towards someone. E.g., when Iceman wants to freeze water, he doesn't shoot it with a freeze ray, he just wills it to freeze. So there's nothing to block. What's to stop a ruthless version of Iceman from freezing the blood in a mage's brain?

That said, the biggest flaw in those plans is you have to know where the mage is. If Dr. Strange or whoever is really being smart, he'd hide himself with invisibility or illusions until he's ready to take you out. But there are probably ways around that, too.