EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

[Spider - Man]

A big part of the discussion seems to be why haven't they made, even announced plans for, a Black Panther film yet. There have been varying thoughts but a lot of people are of the opinion that it is a case of 'racist white studio execs' trying to block progress of films starring or made by black people. There also seems to be a distiction made between movies such as Tyler Perry's and the genre more associated with the films we all like to talk about on here. So let's talk about the success/lack thereof of 2 of the more recent films that fall into the sci-fi/fantasy and/or big-budget SFX movies starring black leads/casts - Red Tails and After Earth.

Red Tails - After an impressive first weekend gross of about 19 mil., the film dropped precipitously and wound up making only about $50 mil total not nearly recapping George Lucas' out of pocket cost to make the film.

After Earth - after many weeks of previews, the film, starring who many consider the most bankable black actor going today, Will Smith, opened to horrendous reviews and a score of 12% on Rotten Tomatoes.

I think it is reasonable to assume that Disney might look to these 2 films to determine if making a Panther film would be feasible or not.

Thoughts?

 

[Hyde]

A big part of the discussion seems to be why haven't they made, even announced plans for, a Black Panther film yet. There have been varying thoughts but a lot of people are of the opinion that it is a case of 'racist white studio execs' trying to block progress of films starring or made by black people. There also seems to be a distiction made between movies such as Tyler Perry's and the genre more associated with the films we all like to talk about on here. So let's talk about the success/lack thereof of 2 of the more recent films that fall into the sci-fi/fantasy and/or big-budget SFX movies starring black leads/casts - Red Tails and After Earth.

Red Tails - After an impressive first weekend gross of about 19 mil., the film dropped precipitously and wound up making only about $50 mil total not nearly recapping George Lucas' out of pocket cost to make the film.

After Earth - after many weeks of previews, the film, starring who many consider the most bankable black actor going today, Will Smith, opened to horrendous reviews and a score of 12% on Rotten Tomatoes.

I think it is reasonable to assume that Disney might look to these 2 films to determine if making a Panther film would be feasible or not.

Thoughts?

I hope you're wrong, because I want a BP movie lol. Then again both these movies were **** and BP is guaranteed to be at least okay, plus it has the Marvel name going for it.

 

[chamber-music]

I don't get why Hollywood or anyone else would say lets not make a Black Panther because Red Tails and After Earth didn't do well

The only thing those movies have in common is black leads and I'm sure they were not successful simply because of the ethnicity of the actors.

Whenever a movie with white leads fail its not like studios say lets not make more big budget films with white people.

Tyler Perry's movies are mainly aimed at a black audience while movies like Red Tails and After Earth are aimed at general audiences of all backgrounds.

 

[tdeverea]

A big part of the discussion seems to be why haven't they made, even announced plans for, a Black Panther film yet. There have been varying thoughts but a lot of people are of the opinion that it is a case of 'racist white studio execs' trying to block progress of films starring or made by black people. There also seems to be a distiction made between movies such as Tyler Perry's and the genre more associated with the films we all like to talk about on here. So let's talk about the success/lack thereof of 2 of the more recent films that fall into the sci-fi/fantasy and/or big-budget SFX movies starring black leads/casts - Red Tails and After Earth.

Red Tails - After an impressive first weekend gross of about 19 mil., the film dropped precipitously and wound up making only about $50 mil total not nearly recapping George Lucas' out of pocket cost to make the film.

After Earth - after many weeks of previews, the film, starring who many consider the most bankable black actor going today, Will Smith, opened to horrendous reviews and a score of 12% on Rotten Tomatoes.

I think it is reasonable to assume that Disney might look to these 2 films to determine if making a Panther film would be feasible or not.

Thoughts?

I hope they don't use it as a metric because they are unrelated other than having Black characters as leads. They should simply look at it through the same lense as CA:TFA, Iron Man, Thor, etc.

It's tied to a wider universe and if they show how BP's world can impact/be impacted by the larger Marvel universe, it will be successful.

*And yes Red Tails was terribly made and written... After Earth wasn't so bad but most critics want Will Smith to fail because he dares to do a movie with his son.

 

[tdeverea]

I don't get why Hollywood or anyone else would say lets not make a Black Panther because Red Tails and After Earth didn't do well

The only thing those movies have in common is black leads and I'm sure they were not successful simply because of the ethnicity of the actors.

Whenever a movie with white leads fail its not like studios say lets not make more big budget films with white people.

Tyler Perry's movies are mainly aimed at a black audience while movies like Red Tails and After Earth are aimed at general audiences of all backgrounds.

I missed your post before I posted mine but yes. All of the above.

 

[roach]

After Earth wasn't so bad but most critics want Will Smith to fail because he dares to do a movie with his son.

this times 100...
....I started to think about this movie and wanted to see it and probably will when I have a chance. People are mad at Will because is is staring in a movie with his son...or pushing him down our throats as others will have you believe.
Will's son wants to be an actor but Will doesnt want him to go through the same racially-soul breaking Hollywood he went through...so what does a father do?
He makes movies for his son. If there was no After Earth what movie this summer would you have seen Jaden in?
None.

 

[DarKush]

I don't get why Hollywood or anyone else would say lets not make a Black Panther because Red Tails and After Earth didn't do well

The only thing those movies have in common is black leads and I'm sure they were not successful simply because of the ethnicity of the actors.

Whenever a movie with white leads fail its not like studios say lets not make more big budget films with white people.

Tyler Perry's movies are mainly aimed at a black audience while movies like Red Tails and After Earth are aimed at general audiences of all backgrounds.

I don't think the failures of either Red Tails or After Earth should have a bearing on whether a Black Panther movie would be made or not. I couldn't read the minds of Disney executives but I think a Panther film is a different animal (pun intended) than either of those films.

For one, Panther is a comic book movie and comic book movies are hot right now, especially Marvel movies tied to the Avengers. A good association with the Avengers movie franchise should help Panther out a lot.

Two, Red Tails was a historical drama and while some World War 2 films are very successful we have yet to see a WW2 film with black leads be successful (Miracle At St. Anna). Panther will likely not be a historical film so that gets past one hurdle. I would argue that white audiences generally have an aversion to black historical subjects, except on rare occasions like in movies 42, Django, and The Help (somewhat), which are helmed by whites and have important or leading white characters. Casting Everett K. Ross and playing up his role in the marketing could help, or having a cameo or two from one of the white Avengers and making sure that that's marketed would help even more.

And After Earth is a space opera sci-fi film that is not tied to any existing franchise so there wasn't much of a branding opportunity as there could be with a Panther film as part of the overall Avengers franchise. It's doubtful that Panther will be a sci-fi film though I'm sure there will be aspects of that, however I doubt it will go as full blown as AE.

So far a lot of the criticism at AE is lobbed at the 'nepotism' and 'Scientology' aspects. Now some of that might be legit, or some might just be covers to hide racial bias. Similar to some of the criticism with Red Tails for being too 'corny'. Perhaps some of those critiques were covers too.

I think that while AE was marketed to general audiences, Red Tails was marketed to black audiences to a large degree.

I think both films probably could've done better marketing overall though, especially AE. And AE's release date did it no favors. I can't say the same for Red Tails release date. I'm still surprised that the movie underperformed the way it did.

Red Tails was a decent film, not the greatest by a long stretch (I think the HBO film on the Red Tails was better in a lot of ways) but I think it deserved a better fate than it got. I also don't think AE is as bad as people are saying it is. However, with the international box office, AE probably is going to be okay, even if it will be considered a flop domestically.

 

[tdeverea]

this times 100...
....I started to think about this movie and wanted to see it and probably will when I have a chance. People are mad at Will because is is staring in a movie with his son...or pushing him down our throats as others will have you believe.
Will's son wants to be an actor but Will doesnt want him to go through the same racially-soul breaking Hollywood he went through...so what does a father do?
He makes movies for his son. If there was no After Earth what movie this summer would you have seen Jaden in?
None.

I have 3 sons. You darn well better believe that if I'm in a position to give them a job, AND they're interested in + qualified for taking on the job, I'm going to do it.

 

[Spider - Man]

I hope they don't use it as a metric because they are unrelated other than having Black characters as leads. They should simply look at it through the same lense as CA:TFA, Iron Man, Thor, etc.

It's tied to a wider universe and if they show how BP's world can impact/be impacted by the larger Marvel universe, it will be successful.

*And yes Red Tails was terribly made and written...

Yeah but look at what happened with Red Tails. Late January after a big opening weekend, all the talk was about how this was going to open the doors for black actors to do big budget fx laden films. Then when the bottom dropped out next weekend, the reviews were all about 'how could you trust someone who gave us JarJar Binks and 'African' Ewoks to bring the Tuskeegee Airmen to the big screen?' and 'Lucas is such a tightwad - he could have easily afforded to hire bigger named actors.' I mean, is this really the reaction when a film that so many black people have their hopes up for takes a dive?

After Earth wasn't so bad but most critics want Will Smith to fail because he dares to do a movie with his son.

You can't be serious...

this times 100...
....I started to think about this movie and wanted to see it and probably will when I have a chance. People are mad at Will because is is staring in a movie with his son...or pushing him down our throats as others will have you believe.
Will's son wants to be an actor but Will doesnt want him to go through the same racially-soul breaking Hollywood he went through...so what does a father do?
He makes movies for his son. If there was no After Earth what movie this summer would you have seen Jaden in?
None.

So you haven't even seen the film but you've already convinced yourself that it is great, the critics just have some secret vendetta against Will Smith's son? 12% on RT doesn't some from some imagined plot against the Smiths.

Maybe it's just because he sucks as an actor? Perhaps NOT seeing Jaden in a film this summer would be a good thing.

 

[DarKush]

this times 100...
....I started to think about this movie and wanted to see it and probably will when I have a chance. People are mad at Will because is is staring in a movie with his son...or pushing him down our throats as others will have you believe.
Will's son wants to be an actor but Will doesnt want him to go through the same racially-soul breaking Hollywood he went through...so what does a father do?
He makes movies for his son. If there was no After Earth what movie this summer would you have seen Jaden in?
None.

Very True.

 

[tdeverea]

Yeah but look at what happened with Red Tails. Late January after a big opening weekend, all the talk was about how this was going to open the doors for black actors to do big budget fx laden films. Then when the bottom dropped out next weekend, the reviews were all about 'how could you trust someone who gave us JarJar Binks and 'African' Ewoks to bring the Tuskeegee Airmen to the big screen?' and 'Lucas is such a tightwad - he could have easily afforded to hire bigger named actors.' I mean, is this really the reaction when a film that so many black people have their hopes up for takes a dive?

Red Tails just wasn't a solidly made movie. It had bright spots but it wasn't well written and some of the performances were wooden. The action was great though. I don't know about all that other stuff but I judged it based on those factors.

You can't be serious...

Dead ass. I'm just basing it off of what I've read on the internet. I didn't make it up. Search for reviews and you'll see what I mean.

And Jaden's acting isn't great but it was servicable for a sci-fi fantasy. He needs work but he's 14. Besides, I think his performance was more a function of the script than his talent. He was pretty good in Karate Kid.

And I realized that you can't objectively argue about the movie because you haven't seen it.

 

[Spider - Man]

And After Earth is a space opera sci-fi film that is not tied to any existing franchise so there wasn't much of a branding opportunity as there could be with a Panther film as part of the overall Avengers franchise.

I don't think this has any bearing right now as AE hasn't had a chance to develop a track record. Right now it isn't about the performance, it is about how good/bad the film is.

So far a lot of the criticism at AE is lobbed at the 'nepotism' and 'Scientology' aspects.

All the criticism I have read had only to do with the acting, writing and the story

They should simply look at it through the same lense as CA:TFA, Iron Man, Thor, etc.

Now some of that might be legit, or some might just be covers to hide racial bias.

The difference is with films like CA and Thor, they don't run as much risk of incurring comments like this if the movie doesn't do as well as expected.

 

[Spider - Man]

Dead ass. I'm just basing it off of what I've read on the internet. I didn't make it up. Search for reviews and you'll see what I mean.

Well, if you read it on the internet it must be true. I have read reviews. I never saw one that indicated some hidden vendetta against Jaden Smith. Maybe you just reading in?

And Jaden's acting isn't great but it was servicable for a sci-fi fantasy. He needs work but he's 14. Besides, I think his performance was more a function of the script than his talent. He was pretty good in Karate Kid.

Serviceable for a $130 mil sci-fi fantasy? And he was atrocious in KK. LIke Zoolander has one look, Smith has one as well...it is this one

And I realized that you can't objectively argue about the movie because you haven't seen it.

I don't have to see it to read 12% on RT and the many (conspiracy!) reviews. What exactly have I written that would have required me to see the film?

 

[DrCosmic]

Red Tails - After an impressive first weekend gross of about 19 mil., the film dropped precipitously and wound up making only about $50 mil total not nearly recapping George Lucas' out of pocket cost to make the film.

After Earth - after many weeks of previews, the film, starring who many consider the most bankable black actor going today, Will Smith, opened to horrendous reviews and a score of 12% on Rotten Tomatoes.

I think it is reasonable to assume that Disney might look to these 2 films to determine if making a Panther film would be feasible or not.

Thoughts?

That's where my theory of race and gender affects how the movie is made more than how it is received. Good films, with black leads make good money. Bad films don't. Hollywood puts out bad films and then says: "see, Black people aren't bankable!" It's pretty ridiculous logic. How much is intentional is unknown. Same with female actioners. Haywire would have been great in the early 90s, but to release

The fact that writers throughout the years have continuously underwritten and vocalized their inability to write non-white non-male characters, and then proved it to us by putting out uninteresting flat characters of persuasions - that pretty much sums up why these things fail. Race affects what happens behind the scenes. I would hope that Disney is beyond this, but it's very possible they're unwilling to break from that vicious cycle.

 

[Spider - Man]

That's where my theory of race and gender affects how the movie is made more than how it is received. Good films, with black leads make good money. Bad films don't. Hollywood puts out bad films and then says: "see, Black people aren't bankable!" It's pretty ridiculous logic. How much is intentional is unknown. Same with female actioners. Haywire would have been great in the early 90s, but to release

Seems like you had a brain fart there... I don't know where you were going after 'but to release...'

The fact that writers throughout the years have continuously underwritten and vocalized their inability to write non-white non-male characters, and then proved it to us by putting out uninteresting flat characters of persuasions - that pretty much sums up why these things fail. Race affects what happens behind the scenes. I would hope that Disney is beyond this, but it's very possible they're unwilling to break from that vicious cycle.

Again I don't know what you are trying to say. Are you actually saying that black writers don't know how to write black characters? John Ridley and Aaron McGruder, 2 black men, wrote Red Tails. Smith himself created the story for AE and helped write it. So you were saying?

 

[roach]

So you haven't even seen the film but you've already convinced yourself that it is great, the critics just have some secret vendetta against Will Smith's son? 12% on RT doesn't some from some imagined plot against the Smiths.

Maybe it's just because he sucks as an actor? Perhaps NOT seeing Jaden in a film this summer would be a good thing.

I never said it was great. I never mentioned the critics or the RT. In fact people I know who have seen it said it was terrible. I said I understand the reason behind Will making movies with his son....and my comment I made at the end of my post is this.....Name another summer movie with a black lead in it?

 

[semper]

Why would the failure of After Earth have any bearing on anything? Smith has been a megastar for over 15 years. He's had a string of huge hits. Most Hollywood producers will even claim that they don't consider him "black", because he supposedly transcends race

After Earth is just a rare Will Smith flop/underperformer (like the Legend Of Bagger Vance or Wlld Wild West). I think it's an incredibly ridiculous metric that a huge, consistent star like Smith is allowed to have almost no flops, or else it's a sign that audiences can no longer handle black leads. When Smith has hits, he transcends race...if he has a flop, he's black again. You can't win for losing.LOL!

Smith is his own thing. Hollywood will just lay the blame at M. Night Shyamalan for making a bad movie, and Smith will carry making his 150 million dollar franchise movies, and it'll be glossed over. Smith has barely put a foot wrong in his career (as far as box office goes). He's a cash cow, and the industry will do what it takes to keep that cash cow alive.

The truth is, I don't believe audiences have any issue with black leads. This is 2013, not 1965. I do believe Hollywood itself is incredibly racist, and want to lay the blame on audiences for their own racism. Hollywood is the most powerful propoganda tool America has. The white guys who run the town know that. They've seen how the influence of the music industry (especially the rise of hip-hop) has seen black men percieved to be more "cool" or attractive than they used to be, particularly to white women. Movies are a way to counter-balance that. Keep all (or most) of the heroes white. Sell the notion that white guys are the coolest, most heroic dudes around. Tell your daughters to stop lusting after rapperst:

Bringing up more black leading men runs counter to that propoganda. You get too many charasmatic, good looking black dudes running around movie screens as the main guy (an Army of Denzels or Smiths or Elbas), I think there's a worry in Hollywood that white leads will start to look a bit less attractive, a little more vanilla. Which I don't think is true at all, but I can see that being part of the reason there's a quota system in place for black leads. Can''t have too many at one time.

 

[chamber-music]

I think Red Tails just didn't interest alot of people. It had nothing to do with the race of how well known or unwell known the cast is.

Some films just don't hook an audience. Gangster Squad had a good cast with some big names but it didn't gather as much interest from audiences as the studio expected either.

 

[DrCosmic]

Again I don't know what you are trying to say. Are you actually saying that black writers don't know how to write black characters? John Ridley and Aaron McGruder, 2 black men, wrote Red Tails. Smith himself created the story for AE and helped write it. So you were saying?

Incidentally, black writers have also vocalized inability to write black characters well, but not because they don't know how. Regardless, I was saying that race causes Hollywood to make poor films with black or female leads. When they make good films, those films do well, just like any other good film. Do you disagree?

I'd be glad to explore just why that is, but if you're on some mission to hit me back with cute replies and prove some notion that black characters are inherently less successful due to their race, I'd rather just cut to the chase than dance around what your overall point is...

So what's your point? What are your thoughts on race and entertainment. Don't be shy now.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

What's the difference between After Earth and Django.

One is a great movie, the other sucks eggs.

We're in a recession. Both black and white audiences boycott crappy movies, no matter what color the cast.

 

[Spider - Man]

Incidentally, black writers have also vocalized inability to write black characters well, but not because they don't know how. Regardless, I was saying that race causes Hollywood to make poor films with black or female leads. When they make good films, those films do well, just like any other good film. Do you disagree?

I'd be glad to explore just why that is, but if you're on some mission to hit me back with cute replies and prove some notion that black characters are inherently less successful due to their race, I'd rather just cut to the chase than dance around what your overall point is...

So what's your point? What are your thoughts on race and entertainment. Don't be shy now.

Now, cos, when have you ever known me to be shy?

Let me say up front I think it is a sad state when a black writer says he 'has an inability to write a black character well'. And for you to state it so matter-of-factly as if that should be perfectly understandable is sadder still.

"Race CAUSES Hollywood to make poor films with black leads"...you and those absolute statements of yours. And of course with not a lick of evidence. Nope, just your own personal feelings of persecution coupled with a need for justification that you can exist with. I'll retract that statement if you actually have some proof to back up your belief. And no, I will not accept a link to a blog by someone else who simply shares your feelings which are also unfounded.

So does race cause Hollywood to make poor films with white leads? Or are ALL films with white leads successful? Because, as you said, when they make good films (with white leads), those films do well.

But to get to my 'overall point' (which you have so kindly provided me fodder with which to address) let me ask you this: why would Marvel want to risk doing a Panther film (which they cannot guarantee the success of) when if it doesn't perform up to expectations, there is an endless supply of fair-minded people like yourself ready to accuse them of deliberately sabatoging it because they are racists?

 

[Spider - Man]

I never said it was great. I never mentioned the critics or the RT. In fact people I know who have seen it said it was terrible. I said I understand the reason behind Will making movies with his son....

Tdeverea stated that the critics dissed the film because they wanted it to fail because they are mad at Smith for doing a film with his son (the most ridiculous conspiracy theory I have heard in some time) and you replied 'this times 1000' indicating your agreement about the CRITICS.

and my comment I made at the end of my post is this.....Name another summer movie with a black lead in it?

No, what you said was: what movie this summer would you have seen Jaden in?

As for other Summer movies with black leads, how about 'Fast and Furious 6', Freeman in 'Now you See Me', Elba in 'Pacific Rim', Denzel in '2 Guns' just off the top of my head.

 

[RockSP]

A big part of the discussion seems to be why haven't they made, even announced plans for, a Black Panther film yet. There have been varying thoughts but a lot of people are of the opinion that it is a case of 'racist white studio execs' trying to block progress of films starring or made by black people. There also seems to be a distiction made between movies such as Tyler Perry's and the genre more associated with the films we all like to talk about on here. So let's talk about the success/lack thereof of 2 of the more recent films that fall into the sci-fi/fantasy and/or big-budget SFX movies starring black leads/casts - Red Tails and After Earth.

Red Tails - After an impressive first weekend gross of about 19 mil., the film dropped precipitously and wound up making only about $50 mil total not nearly recapping George Lucas' out of pocket cost to make the film.

After Earth - after many weeks of previews, the film, starring who many consider the most bankable black actor going today, Will Smith, opened to horrendous reviews and a score of 12% on Rotten Tomatoes.

I think it is reasonable to assume that Disney might look to these 2 films to determine if making a Panther film would be feasible or not.

Thoughts?

I'm pretty surprised that Will's latest movie isn't doing so well. A Will Smith sci-fi movie? Those are almost guaranteed moneymakers...I mean that last Men In Black piece of crap made 600 mil.

As for Disney using the lack of box office success of these two films in regards to making a Black Panther movie: it's not like they were planning to make one anyway, so...

 

[RockSP]

That's where my theory of race and gender affects how the movie is made more than how it is received. Good films, with black leads make good money. Bad films don't.

That's a pretty ridiculous statement.

As for other Summer movies with black leads, how about 'Fast and Furious 6', Freeman in 'Now you See Me', Elba in 'Pacific Rim', Denzel in '2 Guns' just off the top of my head.

Freeman and Elba are not the leads in those movies.

 

[Spider - Man]

Freeman and Elba are not the leads in those movies.

Really? They're both featured pretty prominently in the trailers, Elba giving the 'we will not surrender' rallying speech and Freeman basically narrating the other. I mean, I know they're ensemble casts. I just thought they were equal parts of those given their prominence in the previews.