Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 3

[Matt]

i dont feel the show is moving slow at all i dont get the complaints

Which is a perfectly valid viewpoint! I will gladly discuss our differences there. The point that those who are criticizing the show is making is that it's defenders are not saying, "The pacing isn't bad for this reason." Instead they are saying "You have to read the book to get why it is like that!" "Well in the book this happens so it is necessary!" and so on and so forth. It's almost like they admit that the pacing is bad but think that the book justifies that.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

That is a snobbish viewpoint. Not liking the author's style of writing and not liking the concept are two different things. The Lord of the Rings trilogy rank among my favorite movies of the past decade. I DESPISE the books. I've tried on more than one occasion to read them but I can never seem to get past the Prancing Pony because of Tolkein's writing style. It is less like reading a piece of literature for enjoyment and more like reading a dry as **** history book.

It's not snobbish, it's true. I watched the first season and read the book. When I was done, I couldn't wait to start the second. If I didn't have that desire, I probably wouldn't be watching this season now. It's the fact that you have no desire to read the second book that makes me think this isn't for you, not disliking Martin's style.

At the very least, wait until the season is over and watch a bunch of episodes together instead of one per week.

Once again, you are misinterpreting my complaint. It is not that I dislike the story, the characters, the concept or anything like that. It is that for a TELEVISION SERIES, the pace is too slow.

And if you read the book, you'd realize that the pace is very fast compared to the book. I thought it could have been better in the first two episodes but was perfectly fine this week.

 

[danoyse]

But that is the exact point we are making! Those who read the books are more forgiving of wasting 20 minutes an episode on Dany because the character is endeared to them and they know it is going somewhere. The same cannot be said for the casual viewer.

But if this is a criticism of the casual viewer (and every review I've read where the critic has not read the books indicates it is), then that is a flaw of the adapter. Unless of course they are making the show simply for the sake of fans of the book. Reading the book should not be necessary for enjoyment of the show.

And we're making our point too...and you're calling us snobs.

I can't put myself in the viewpoint of someone who hasn't read the books because I'm in the middle of reading them now. I don't think the show is slow (seriously, twice I've yelled "seriously?!?!" when the end credits rolled because I didn't realize the hour had gone by so quickly), because even not having finished all of the books I think that it's (along with Mad Men) one of the best shows on TV right now just on the writing and the acting alone.

People who've read the books are going to see it differently. It doesn't make them snobs, or "a failure to grasp" an adaptation...especially when it's an exceptionally good adaptation.

It's OK that you don't like it. But a lot of us do...because it's pretty much exactly what we expected from it.

Not so! I find the characters to be fascinating. I just do not like GRRM's writing style. I think that he overplays his hand with his decision of where and when to change POVs in order to invoke emotion but he does it to the point of frustration from the reader. I feel like it is a cheap style of writing. I'm not necessarily saying that he should tell a linear story from one point of view or from an omniscient narrator. But I do think that his writing style over the course of one book went from unique to gimmicky in large part because of how he used it. I can only imagine how it gets as the franchise progresses.

Which again...leads me to think that this series isn't for you.

 

[Matt]

It's not snobbish, it's true. I watched the first season and read the book. When I was done, I couldn't wait to start the second. If I didn't have that desire, I probably wouldn't be watching this season now. It's the fact that you have no desire to read the second book that makes me think this isn't for you, not disliking Martin's style.

At the very least, wait until the season is over and watch a bunch of episodes together instead of one per week.

It is incredibly snobbish. Any time you say something like, "It's not for you," there is a patronizing tone like, "hehe, dumb ass doesn't get it, run along and read something simpler." I get it just fine. I understand what Martin was going for. I am saying in my opinion, he failed at it because he overplayed his hand and lost any sense of subtlety which once again, in my humble opinion, an author needs to be successful.

Telling me that my desire not to read the second book has nothing to do with the fact that I dislike Martin's style is patronizing and snobbish.

Believe it or not, as a grown adult who is fully educated (in a field that focused almost exclusively on writing from a very prestigious university mind you), I am capable of forming and holding my own opinions on literature, television shows, etc without having my hair ruffled and being told, "You just don't get it junior, go watch a Michael Bay movie that will hold your very short attention span until the season is over and then you can watch it in one sitting so you aren't bored by the really complex, over your head plot."

Believe it or not I get everything that is going on. I am simply of the opinion that it isn't working as a television show because the pace is too slow and certainly do not need someone to tell me what is or isn't for me, thanks.

And if you read the book, you'd realize that the pace is very fast compared to the book.

Again, that doesn't justify the pace being slow FOR A TELEVISION SHOW! The book could spend a good 50 pages describing Tyrion scratching his nuts and the knowledge that the writers have omitted that doesn't make the pace of the show on my screen any faster.

I feel like I'm talking to a wall. I don't give a **** what is in the book or how slow the book is. I am critiquing a television show. I find the pace of the show to be slow. What is in the book that I have not read has no bearing on my thoughts on the television show. You do not seem to understand that point.

 

[Matt]

And we're making our point too...and you're calling us snobs.

I can't put myself in the viewpoint of someone who hasn't read the books because I'm in the middle of reading them now. I don't think the show is slow (seriously, twice I've yelled "seriously?!?!" when the end credits rolled because I didn't realize the hour had gone by so quickly), because even not having finished all of the books I think that it's (along with Mad Men) one of the best shows on TV right now just on the writing and the acting alone.

People who've read the books are going to see it differently. It doesn't make them snobs, or "a failure to grasp" an adaptation...especially when it's an exceptionally good adaptation.

It's OK that you don't like it. But a lot of us do...because it's pretty much exactly what we expected from it.




Which again...leads me to think that this series isn't for you.

Yes, when someone tells me what is or isn't for me (repeatedly), I do tend to find it snobbish.

For more, see the above post.

 

[danoyse]

i dont feel the show is moving slow at all i dont get the complaints

Which is a perfectly valid viewpoint! I will gladly discuss our differences there. The point that those who are criticizing the show is making is that it's defenders are not saying, "The pacing isn't bad for this reason." Instead they are saying "You have to read the book to get why it is like that!" "Well in the book this happens so it is necessary!" and so on and so forth. It's almost like they admit that the pacing is bad but think that the book justifies that.

This is just getting stupid now. People who are liking the show, whether they've read the books or not, are all saying the same thing.

No one is "admitting" anything, nor do they have to.

 

[Bruce Malone]

I don't agree with the point of view that the book/tv comparisons that are going on here are the norm for the other threads. Look at the amount of blacked out/spoiler tagged pages here compared to those other threads. Look at the true blood thread and you'll see there is much more tv series than book discussion going on. Even most LOTR film discussion are about what happened in the films more so than the books.

When the show 1st aired most of the discussions here were about the show and people who read the book were actually a lot less out spoken in comparisons.

I actually really like what they do at the AV club where they have separate episode reviews put up for those who have read the books and those who haven't. I know it's unlikely to get 2 separate threads going on but it seems like there is little leaway here between the book/show watchers.

 

[Matt]

This is just getting stupid now. People who are liking the show, whether they've read the books or not, are all saying the same thing.

No one is "admitting" anything, nor do they have to.

There have been at least twenty posts in this thread where readers of the book have said, "Yep, the pace is slow because it needs to build to (insert book spoiler here)."

There is nothing stupid about that observation nor is it inaccurate or demanding that anyone admit anything. It is an observation based on what people have said.

 

[danoyse]

It is incredibly snobbish. Any time you say something like, "It's not for you," there is a patronizing tone like, "hehe, dumb ass doesn't get it, run along and read something simpler." I get it just fine. I understand what Martin was going for. I am saying in my opinion, he failed at it because he overplayed his hand and lost any sense of subtlety which once again, in my humble opinion, an author needs to be successful.

Telling me that my desire not to read the second book has nothing to do with the fact that I dislike Martin's style is patronizing and snobbish.

Believe it or not, as a grown adult who is fully educated (in a field that focused almost exclusively on writing from a very prestigious university mind you), I am capable of forming and holding my own opinions on literature, television shows, etc without having my hair ruffled and being told, "You just don't get it junior, go watch a Michael Bay movie that will hold your very short attention span until the season is over and then you can watch it in one sitting so you aren't bored by the really complex, over your head plot."

Believe it or not I get everything that is going on. I am simply of the opinion that it isn't working as a television show because the pace is too slow and certainly do not need someone to tell me what is or isn't for me, thanks.



Again, that doesn't justify the pace being slow FOR A TELEVISION SHOW! The book could spend a good 50 pages describing Tyrion scratching his nuts and the knowledge that the writers have omitted that doesn't make the pace of the show on my screen any faster.

I feel like I'm talking to a wall. I don't give a **** what is in the book or how slow the book is. I am critiquing a television show. I find the pace of the show to be slow. What is in the book that I have not read has no bearing on my thoughts on the television show. You do not seem to understand that point.

We do understand your point. We're disagreeing with it.

And you can't accuse others of being patronizing when you're calling them snobs and defenders explaining what you think they 'fail to grasp' simply because they see something differently then the way you do.

You don't like how the show is paced? Good for you. But just because you didn't like it, you were not appointed overlord of what is right or wrong with the show.

For the record, no one who read the books got that job either. But it's not right for either side to generalize the other as being a certain way just because they disagree. Your problem is that you seem to think its OK when you do it, and I don't think you realize that's exactly what you're doing here.

At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion, which we're all entitled to.

 

[Matt]

Hang tight, I'm PMing you.

 

[danoyse]

There have been at least twenty posts in this thread where readers of the book have said, "Yep, the pace is slow because it needs to build to (insert book spoiler here)."

There is nothing stupid about that observation nor is it inaccurate or demanding that anyone admit anything. It is an observation based on what people have said.

And there's nothing wrong with "the pace is slow because (book spoiler)".

That just is what the story is, and there's a lot of story left.

There's nothing to admit. Stuff that's happening now is important regarding stuff that's happening later. That's just what it is.

 

[Roose Bolton]

There have been at least twenty posts in this thread where readers of the book have said, "Yep, the pace is slow because it needs to build to (insert book spoiler here)."

There is nothing stupid about that observation nor is it inaccurate or demanding that anyone admit anything. It is an observation based on what people have said.

What do you want from the show? You've repeatedly said you think it's all moving along too slow for your liking, so on the flip side of that, how do you want it to go? Please don't take this as an insult or anything I'm Just genuinely curious to see what you'd want more from the show.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

It is incredibly snobbish. Any time you say something like, "It's not for you," there is a patronizing tone like, "hehe, dumb ass doesn't get it, run along and read something simpler." I get it just fine. I understand what Martin was going for. I am saying in my opinion, he failed at it because he overplayed his hand and lost any sense of subtlety which once again, in my humble opinion, an author needs to be successful.

Saying something isn't for you isn't an insult, quit taking it so personally.

Telling me that my desire not to read the second book has nothing to do with the fact that I dislike Martin's style is patronizing and snobbish.

I should have made myself more clear. I spoke from my personal experience. When I finished the first book, I was excited to start reading the second. I actually had to resist the urge to pick it up immediately since I knew I would be staying up until 6am. You didn't have that, so I don't think this show or series is your thing. Again, it's not an insult so don't take it as one.

I'm not much of a reader let alone fiction and I've spent the last 2.5 years taking classes in a major where I don't read novels or write essays. So I'm not in the mindset where I analyze the writer's style as I'm reading. If it holds my interest, that's enough for me.

Believe it or not, as a grown adult who is fully educated (in a field that focused almost exclusively on writing from a very prestigious university mind you), I am capable of forming and holding my own opinions on literature, television shows, etc without having my hair ruffled and being told, "You just don't get it junior, go watch a Michael Bay movie that will hold your very short attention span until the season is over and then you can watch it in one sitting so you aren't bored by the really complex, over your head plot."

Again, I'm speaking from personal experience on this one. I watched the first 2 episodes each week when they premiered. Lady getting killed at the end depressed me, so I put it aside. A few weeks later, I watch episodes 3, 4, 5, and 6 within a few days and I was hooked on it. If I watched them week by week, I may not have been. That's why I recommended waiting and getting caught up when you can watch several at once.

Believe it or not I get everything that is going on. I am simply of the opinion that it isn't working as a television show because the pace is too slow and certainly do not need someone to tell me what is or isn't for me, thanks.

I admit the pacing of the first episode wasn't great. There were characters to introduce and I think they did it that way since they figured there'd be a lot of new viewers so they could see what is happening with everyone The second episode was better but still had room for improvement. I think this week's episode was well done since it mostly focused on what happened with just 3-4 characters.

 

[rayc1971]

i have not read the books but i dont find the show slow.this is the only show on tv i watch and when i look up at the clock i cant believe a hour has gone bye.i get lost in the characters and it leaves me wanting more after every episode!

 

[Clu]

i have not read the books but i dont find the show slow.this is the only show on tv i watch and when i look up at the clock i cant believe a hour has gone bye.i get lost in the characters and it leaves me wanting more after every episode!

exactly how i feel also.

the show is season 1 was jumping around so much, my biggest complaint i told people was that it has no sense of time, because one scene will have them about to travel, then the next scene was them arriving saying,"that took 5 months" this season it seems they learned from that.

 

[Project862006]

i have not read the books but i dont find the show slow.this is the only show on tv i watch and when i look up at the clock i cant believe a hour has gone bye.i get lost in the characters and it leaves me wanting more after every episode!

same here i have never read a game of thrones book and i love the show and i dont feel it is slow

maybe because i am so engrossed in the story and it's characters but the show just flies by each week

 

[DACrowe]

But it is a different medium. The pacing of the book does not work for the show. Television by it's nature is a more dynamic and visual medium. Watching people sit around and talk for an hour is not as effective on screen as it is on paper.

I agree with this. I just feel Season 2 has done a very good job thus far. Episode 1 was the only really "set-up" episode in it reintroduced the audience to all the characters still alive (and a few new ones) and set the stage. Episodes 2-3 are the beginning of their arcs (with Tyrion, Arya and Theon's really taking off already in episode 2 or 3). It is going to continue to get bigger and bigger until the final two episodes of the season.

I'm fine with this. I enjoy the kind of shock-a-week style of, say Rome. But I think this slow-build is working on this show. I don't think it's aimless like The Walking Dead (which you repeatedly compare this to, to my sadness), it's just another way to tell a story. I'm sure you noticed more happened in episode 3 than episode 2 and more happened in episode 2 than the completely set-up episode 1. It is going to continue to build like this for the rest of the season.

But that is the exact point we are making! Those who read the books are more forgiving of wasting 20 minutes an episode on Dany because the character is endeared to them and they know it is going somewhere. The same cannot be said for the casual viewer.

When have wasted 20 minutes on Dany? She's probably had about 3 minutes of screen time out of the three episodes we've had this season. Are you referring to S1? As a reader, I actually find the Dany scenes frustrating because I know how long one has to wait for the payoff (S3 for something really interesting and as for something related to Westeros? Still nothin'), but the casual viewers love her character. In fact, to the non-readers I'd pretty much guess she's the most popular character after Tyrion in the series.

 

[Marvolo]

I don't think Matt is going to come around. At this point the discussion is akin to watching someone bash their head into a brick wall. It is monotonous and makes my head hurt observing it.

Now after an episode this thread seems to dissolve into Matt vs. GOT. Is this what we have to look forward to every week?

 

[DACrowe]

My problem isn't not knowing about what happens in the book. My problem is that the pace of the show is slow to a fault. "Read the book," isn't a valid defense for a critique of a television series, IMO.

And for the record, I have started reading the books. I read the first one pretty quickly. Don't think that I will bother with the second. GRRM's writing style is cheap. Soap opera cheap. His characters are compelling enough, but he creates artificial drama. The chapter cliffhangers would be fine, if one did not have to wait 80 pages to read the conclusion (and usually be met with a fairly simplistic solution). I find his style to be very off-putting in that regard and it turned me off as a reader.

So you're not going to read the books now, either?

I really enjoyed them even though I did have to fight the urge through ACOK to not skip ahead to find out what happened next to certain characters. I think he writes great characters and has created a very complex plot that until AFFC very much avoided soap opera clichés. If you like the characters, you really should read through ASOS (book 3), because that is such a satisfying, if not necessarily happy, read.

My opinion, of course.

 

[chamber-music]

Like others have said I have not read the books and I don't find the show slow either.

It comes down to individual taste I suppose.

At the end of the day this show is made up of 80% people talking, 10% people shagging and 10% random acts of violence from what I have seen so far and it stays pretty faithful to the books from what I've heard most people say.

I'm not sure if the Game Of Throne show runners can afford huge war scenes considering they must spend alot of money on having such a large cast, filming in multiple countries and all the costumes, ect.

Now the first half of season two of Walking Dead was slow.

 

[Dangerman]

OK the one thing I am confused about is that did Theon sleep with his sister or did he just feel her up?

 

[LivingWBatman]

Felt her up. She wanted to see what kind of person he was during that ride. Similar thing happened in the book.

 

[chaseter]

She enjoyed it.

 

[chamber-music]

This show is one incest scene away from Tom Arnold singing I'm my own grandpa!

 

[squeekness]

Maybe there's more Targaryan blood floating around in the other families than they realize!