Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 4

[rayc1971]

i saw the cast list for season3 no ramsay bolton.this must mean he is already on screen in disguise could the guy giving theon advice be him?

 

[smashmode]

Loved Bolger in Tudors and she's grown up to be quite the lady. However, isn't she a wee old for the part? I haven't read ADWD, but in ACOK and ASOS, I got that Bran was smitten with her. Then again, they didn't shy away from age difference with Arya and Gendry, so what do I know.

She is 21, but she can look younger, and they aged up everyone so I dunno

 

[DarthSkywalker]

i saw the cast list for season3 no ramsay bolton.this must mean he is already on screen in disguise could the guy giving theon advice be him?

I hope that isn't him. I have heard this theory, and it makes no sense and I really hate it.

Vargo Hoat isn't on the list either and we know people are auditioning for the role and D&D have said there are some roles not on the list.

 

[ChickenScratch]

i saw the cast list for season3 no ramsay bolton.this must mean he is already on screen in disguise could the guy giving theon advice be him?

Spoiler

It's gotta be Ramsey dressed as Reek.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Are we talking about the man that was willing to kill Dany to get his ticket back home before he developed the urge to bang her?

Yeah, no.

All he did was give information, but You're right he did betray her, yet he also saved her and her unborn child, not to mention [blackout] literally crawled through a river of **** for her on what was assumed to be a suicide mission.[/blackout] I think that far out ways any wrongs he may have done her.

 

[Marvolo]

And how does any of this keep him from being a coward?

Well if a sensible man is a coward I guess he is or if surviving makes him coward so be it. His crime wasn't honorable and his commiting it was far from sensible but I consider running to be the most sensible thing he did. Just because he acted stupid doesn't mean he has to resign himself to the chopping block. No human is going to give up on life so easily regardless of honor. In his case it's better to be alive and a coward than dead and honorable like Stark. Not every case mind you but in this case he's better off having ran.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

All he did was give information, but You're right he did betray her, yet he also saved her and her unborn child, not to mention literally crawled through a river of **** for her on what was assumed to be a suicide mission. I think that far out ways any wrongs he may have done her.

First, spoilers. Second, Dany doesn't agree.

He won't even take responsibility for what he did. He always feels like he has done enough to repay his wrongs. As if good deeds wipe out the wrong ones. That is the first indication that he doesn't understand what he truly did wrong in the first place. He should have told Dany, but he was too afraid of what would come of it.

No honor in that man. Only the false trappings of one.

Well if a sensible man is a coward I guess he is or if surviving makes him coward so be it. His crime wasn't honorable and his commiting it was far from sensible but I consider running to be the most sensible thing he did. Just because he acted stupid doesn't mean he has to resign himself to the chopping block. No human is going to give up on life so easily regardless of honor.In his case it's better to be alive and a coward than dead and honorable like Stark. Not every case mind you but in this case he's better off having ran.

You do realize this could apply to every criminal in the story, even those that bash children's heads against the wall?

Jorah, The Mountain, Theon, Joffrey. They are no different in the eyes of the North, and considering the North remembers, that is no good thing.

 

[zanos]

Stannis is not a nice man, all he cares about is the throne.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Stannis is not a nice man, all he cares about is the throne.

That is so far off base. Stannis cares about what is right, what is just.

 

[Marvolo]

First, spoilers. Second, Dany doesn't agree.

He won't even take responsibility for what he did. He always feels like he has done enough to repay his wrongs. As if good deeds wipe out the wrong ones. That is the first indication that he doesn't understand what he truly did wrong in the first place. He should have told Dany, but he was too afraid of what would come of it.

No honor in that man. Only the false trappings of one.



You do realize this could apply to every criminal in the story, even those that bash children's heads against the wall?

Jorah, The Mountain, Theon, Joffrey. They are no different in the eyes of the North, and considering the North remembers, that is no good thing.

Yes it most certainly could apply to anyone, but there is one thing you have to take into account. We the reader have an almost omniscient view of these characters. I know things about the character and have seen Jorah do things and suffer in ways that I believe absolves him of his earlier crimes. To have him accept death so easily would have been a waste. I can't look at this the way the legal system of Westeross and Ned saw Jorah, because they all have an incomplete picture of it all. I can't look at this from strictly one viewpoint. I have to look at it from every possible viewpoint, and when I do I find more than one way to forgive Jorah of his earlier actions and accept him for the man he now is. Every man and woman can change, but they have to want to change. Jorah made a decision, and now he is trying to make up for it and be a better person in the best way he can. I think that makes him noble. Yes, it could be argued this is all because he got caught, and I might agree if I were a character in the story, but seeing all the angles I don't believe that is the case. Jorah is a good man who made a string of bad decisions. He deserves a chance to be better.

As for the Mountain, Theon, and Joffrey, well, I as the reader also have an even better view of them than the character's around them. I can find very little in the way of redeemable qualities in them. If they ever show redeemable qualities I will reevaluate them. All of these are grey characters that are wildly different. I find its best to take them all on a case by case basis.

 

[Roose Bolton]

First, spoilers. Second, Dany doesn't agree.

He won't even take responsibility for what he did. He always feels like he has done enough to repay his wrongs. As if good deeds wipe out the wrong ones. That is the first indication that he doesn't understand what he truly did wrong in the first place. He should have told Dany, but he was too afraid of what would come of it.

No honor in that man. Only the false trappings of one.

**** honor. Not everyone can be a perfect like Ned Stark, he's a flawed man, but judging a man by his bad deeds and ignoring the good is a very closed view. As Davos says all men have their parts mixed, the good and the bad. Jorah has done enough good that he can sufficiently be judged as a somewhat decent man. Certainly not someone who could be compared to Gregor Clegane or Joffrey.

 

[zanos]

That is so far off base. Stannis cares about what is right, what is just.

He's a meany!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yes it most certainly could apply to anyone, but there is one thing you have to take into account. We the reader have an almost omniscient view of these characters. I know things about the character and have seen Jorah do things and suffer in ways that I believe absolves him of his earlier crimes. To have him accept death so easily would have been a waste. I can't look at this the way the legal system of Westeross and Ned saw Jorah, because they all have an incomplete picture of it all. I can't look at this from strictly one viewpoint. I have to look at it from every possible viewpoint, and when I do I find more than one way to forgive Jorah of his earlier actions and accept him for the man he now is. Every man and woman can change, but they have to want to change. Jorah made a decision, and now he is trying to make up for it and be a better person in the best way he can. I think that makes him noble. Yes, it could be argued this is all because he got caught, and I might agree if I were a character in the story, but seeing all the angles I don't believe that is the case. Jorah is a good man who made a string of bad decisions. He deserves a chance to be better.

As for the Mountain, Theon, and Joffrey, well, I as the reader also have an even better view of them than the character's around them. I can find very little in the way of redeemable qualities in them. If they ever show redeemable qualities I will reevaluate them. All of these are grey characters that are wildly different. I find its best to take them all on a case by case basis.

Actually we don't. GRRM specifically said we don't. Everything we see is colored by the POV.

And you lost me as soon as you said there is any redemption for child murders.

 

[rayc1971]

I hope that isn't him. I have heard this theory, and it makes no sense and I really hate it.

Vargo Hoat isn't on the list either and we know people are auditioning for the role and D&D have said there are some roles not on the list.

i hope it is not him too.it would make no sense because he joined theon before he took winterfell roose said he wwas sending his bastard after the fact.but this man has done the things reek aka ramsay was suppose to do

 

[DarthSkywalker]

**** honor. Not everyone can be a perfect like Ned Stark, he's a flawed man, but judging a man by his bad deeds and ignoring the good is a very closed view. As Davos says all men have their parts mixed, the good and the bad. Jorah has done enough good that he can sufficiently be judged as a somewhat decent man. Certainly not someone who could be compared to Gregor Clegane or Joffrey.

Ned wasn't perfect, no man is. But saying "**** honor" is what has led to the terrible state Westeros is in. It is why they are unprepared for the Others.

You like to talk about Jorah's "good deeds" without mentioning why he does them. It isn't for some greater good or the care of others. It is because he thinks with his penis.

 

[DACrowe]

There is a reason why Jon Snow has Longclaw and he doesn't. The coward knew what he did and left it behind.

The punishment did fit the crime. He sold men into slavery and more so, he knew the punishment. That is the thing, he knew the punishment and did it anyways.

His precious Dany seems to agree with Ned on this. Just look at Astapor.

So. Jon and Robb are [blackout]oathbreakers,[/blackout] Arya is a murderer, Tyrion is [blackout]a kinslayer and strangled Shae to death on top of that[/blackout] and Jaime....well his many crimes and transgressions are too numerous to list.

Yet most readers love those characters.

 

[DACrowe]

That is so far off base. Stannis cares about what is right, what is just.

You mean like murdering his brother with dark magic? Or cheating on his wife? Or was it when he burned several of his lords alive who'd been loyal to him, simply because they wouldn't convert to his new religion which he himself doesn't care for?

Add Stannis to the list of characters above I have for double standards in this story.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So. Jon and Robb are [blackout]oathbreakers,[/blackout] Arya is a murderer, Tyrion is [blackout]a kinslayer and strangled Shae to death on top of that[/blackout] and Jaime....well his many crimes and transgressions are too numerous to list.

Yet most readers love those characters.

Since when is Jon an [BLACKOUT]oathbreaker[/BLACKOUT]?

There is a difference between being a good, but imperfect person, and one who judges themselves above others. Jon, Bran, Robb, Tyrion, Arya, Stannis. They have codes and try to live by them. They make an effort everyday. Do they mess up? Royally at time. But their intent is just. Some of these men/boys have found the survival of thousands of people on their backs. Unimaginable pressure for some so young.

Jorah "Self-pity" Mormont is a grown man who is as fracking changeable as the women in his life. If Cersei offered herself to him, he'd be doing her bidding right now.

 

[Marvolo]

Actually we don't. GRRM specifically said we don't. Everything we see is colored by the POV.

And you lost me as soon as you said there is any redemption for child murders.

Regardless, I've seen enough of Jorah to determine him a good man worthy of redemption. He does not belong in the same group as the Mountain, Joffrey, or Theon.

And I never said there was redemption for child murderers. I do believe, however, that every person deserves a chance at redemption. Everyone makes mistakes some more horrible than others. Saying someone is worthy of redemption is not the same as agreeing with what they did.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Ned wasn't perfect, no man is. But saying "**** honor" is what has led to the terrible state Westeros is in. It is why they are unprepared for the Others.

You like to talk about Jorah's "good deeds" without mentioning why he does them. It isn't for some greater good or the care of others. It is because he thinks with his penis.

You see that's the thing, I don't think he go as far as he did for lust.
Would you [blackout] walk through a river of **** towards what is most likely your death [/blackout] just to get laid ? He isn't as shallow as you make him out to be. He's gone to desperate lengths for the two women he loves, and has been incredibly loyal to both, he's been foolish in that sense but I think in his way he does try and make an effort to them.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You mean like murdering his brother with dark magic? Or cheating on his wife? Or was it when he burned several of his lords alive who'd been loyal to him, simply because they wouldn't convert to his new religion which he himself doesn't care for?

Add Stannis to the list of characters above I have for double standards in this story.

His brother was warned. You act as if he wasn't. Renly was breaking the law. He was no different then Joffrey in this regard. He got what he deserved.

I am also pretty sure his wife would probably encourage him to do whatever Mel says. That would include shagging her. R'hllor and all.

And Stannis doesn't simply burn those that don't convert to his religion, but he won't stand for claims of blasphemy.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You see that's the thing, I don't think he go as far as he did for lust.
Would you [blackout] walk through a river of **** towards what is most likely your death [/blackout] just to get laid ? He isn't as shallow as you make him out to be. He's gone to desperate lengths for the two women he loves, and has been incredibly loyal to both, he's been foolish in that sense but I think in his way he does try and make an effort to them.

So you can love 3 different woman with all your soul and being? This guy has found true love more in one lifetime then anyone else I can think of. t:

Regardless, I've seen enough of Jorah to determine him a good man worthy of redemption. He does not belong in the same group as the Mountain, Joffrey, or Theon.

And I never said there was redemption for child murderers. I do believe, however, that every person deserves a chance at redemption. Everyone makes mistakes some more horrible than others. Saying someone is worthy of redemption is not the same as agreeing with what they did.

If you see any possible redemption for men like The Mountain or Joffrey, I can't agree with you. There is a limit to mercy and turning the other cheek. See Syria.

 

[Marvolo]

Ned wasn't perfect, no man is. But saying "**** honor" is what has led to the terrible state Westeros is in. It is why they are unprepared for the Others.

You like to talk about Jorah's "good deeds" without mentioning why he does them. It isn't for some greater good or the care of others. It is because he thinks with his penis.

Westeross is in this state because Ned thought with his honor. He warned Cersei of what he knew and gave her an opportunity to flee. Had he never tipped his hand she wouldn't have been able to put a plan in place to silence him. He also chose to stay in the city instead of fleeing with Renly, because of his honor. Both actions led to his death, caused reasonable doubt of his claim that Joffry was not Roberts, and gave Joffrey and Cersei the leverage to grab power. Had he not told Cersei things would have went much different. Ned was a fool.

Also, Jorah is thinking as a man in love does. Love is his motivation. It makes his penance and deeds no less worthy. Dany is more to him than just a piece of flesh to be bedded.

 

[Marvolo]

So you can love 3 different woman with all your soul and being? This guy has found true love more in one lifetime then anyone else I can think of. t:



If you see any possible redemption for men like The Mountain or Joffrey, I can't agree with you. There is a limit to mercy and turning the other cheek. See Syria.

When did I ever specifically say their was redemption for either of them. I said if they do something redeemable I will reevaluate them. That doesn't mean I'm gonna hand them a gold star and proclaim them honorable. If the Mountain was to walk into a burning building to save a baby I would see that deed for what it is. An act of courage. That doesn't mean I've forgotten all the other **** he's done.

Every man deserves a chance at redemption, but that comes with penance. Jorah has given what I consider adequate penance for his deeds. There isn't enough time in the world for the Mountain or Joffrey to give enough penance, but who am I to deny them try? They have every right to try to change and be as good as the next man. Now if someone kills them out of revenge while they are on their journey to redemption, well, that's just karma.t:

Also, only being capable of having one true love is a ridiculous idea imo. People are capable of loving more than one person in a lifetime. I've witnessed it.

 

[DACrowe]

His brother was warned. You act as if he wasn't. Renly was breaking the law. He was no different then Joffrey in this regard. He got what he deserved.

Please. There is no law in Westeros. Not after Robert. If you honestly believe Renly got what he deserved, then Stannis, Ned and Robert all deserved to die for their rebellion because Robert's claim was just as unlawful as Renly's.

If you want to judge honor, I'd say Renly trying to give his brother with the smaller force a chance to surrender and then ordering his Vanguard to make sure that Stannis is taken alive is far more honorable than stealing in your concubine in the middle of the night to birth a shadow monster from your infidelity to commit fratricide. Or is kinslaying only awful when it's applied to Lannisters?

Stannis's hands are as covered in blood and wrong-doing as almost every character in this book. He also almost burned a kid alive if it wasn't for Davos's quick thinking. The only difference is Stannis pretends he's better than everyone else. But just because he is delusionally self-righteous does not make him a man without wrong.

And Stannis doesn't simply burn those that don't convert to his religion, but he won't stand for claims of blasphemy.

Tell that to Lord Sunglass (terrible name) and one or two others who I forgot from the beginning of ACOK.