Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 4

[DarthSkywalker]

Westeross is in this state because Ned thought with his honor. He warned Cersei of what he knew and gave her an opportunity to flee. Had he never tipped his hand she wouldn't have been able to put a plan in place to silence him. He also chose to stay in the city instead of fleeing with Renly, because of his honor. Both actions led to his death, caused reasonable doubt of his claim that Joffry was not Roberts, and gave Joffrey and Cersei the leverage to grab power. Had he not told Cersei things would have went much different. Ned was a fool.

Also, Jorah is thinking as a man in love does. Love is his motivation. It makes his penance and deeds less worthy. Dany is more than just a piece of flesh to him which he wants to bed.

Look North. The decay of Westeros stared long before Ned. The Lannisters, the Targaryens, the Baratheons. They brought a once great continent to ruins, leaving the Wall all but unmanned, too busy enjoying themselves.

There is a reason the North was in relative peace. Why so many worshiped Ned Stark and still remember what was done to him and his family. When his children and [BLACKOUT]nephew[/BLACKOUT] save Westeros, you will see just how right Ned was.

Ned, like Obi-Wan, greater in death then life. Which is saying something for these two men.

 

[Marvolo]

Look North. The decay of Westeros stared long before Ned. The Lannisters, the Targaryens, the Baratheons. They brought a once great continent to ruins, leaving the Wall all but unmanned, too busy enjoying themselves.

There is a reason the North was in relative peace. Why so many worshiped Ned Stark and still remember what was done to him and his family. When his children and [BLACKOUT]nephew[/BLACKOUT] save Westeros, you will see just how right Ned was.

Ned, like Obi-Wan, greater in death then life. Which is saying something for these two men.

Ned may have been right in the North and all those instances, but he was not right at all in how he handled the situation in King's Landing. King's Landing is not the North. Things operate differently down there in King's Landing. He tried to be honorable in an inhonerable city full of vipers and he was eaten alive. I admire what he tried to do, but that doesn't make him any less a fool or change the fact that he mishandled the situation and it directly resulted in the outbreak of war. He was the spark that lit the flame essentially. Had he handled it differently and like others tried to get him to handle it then Cersei and Jaime would have been in deep **** and their children would have had absolutely no claim. The crown would have simply went to the next true Baratheon in line. He had absolutely no business whatsoever giving Cersei the headsup. I don't care if she was Robert's wife. No good could come of it, and it served him no advantage.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Please. There is no law in Westeros. Not after Robert. If you honestly believe Renly got what he deserved, then Stannis, Ned and Robert all deserved to die for their rebellion because Robert's claim was just as unlawful as Renly's.

If you want to judge honor, I'd say Renly trying to give his brother with the smaller force a chance to surrender and then ordering his Vanguard to make sure that Stannis is taken alive is far more honorable than stealing in your concubine in the middle of the night to birth a shadow monster from your infidelity to commit fratricide. Or is kinslaying only awful when it's applied to Lannisters?

Stannis's hands are as covered in blood and wrong-doing as almost every character in this book. He also almost burned a kid alive if it wasn't for Davos's quick thinking. The only difference is Stannis pretends he's better than everyone else. But just because he is delusionally self-righteous does not make him a man without wrong.

By law, Stannis is King. You can continue to deny it, doesn't make it any less true. That is why the Lannisters hide Joffrey's true father.

[BLACKOUT]Remember when Jaime wanted to tell everyone[/BLACKOUT]? Cersei's reaction? End of.

Tell that to Lord Sunglass (terrible name) and one or two others who I forgot from the beginning of ACOK.

I am pretty sure Stannis didn't kill him. His wife and Mel did. I believe Stannis only had those commenting blasphemy and/or killing burned. The others were thrown into cells.

 

[DACrowe]

Look North. The decay of Westeros stared long before Ned. The Lannisters, the Targaryens, the Baratheons. They brought a once great continent to ruins, leaving the Wall all but unmanned, too busy enjoying themselves.

There is a reason the North was in relative peace. Why so many worshiped Ned Stark and still remember what was done to him and his family. When his children and [BLACKOUT]nephew[/BLACKOUT] save Westeros, you will see just how right Ned was.

Ned, like Obi-Wan, greater in death then life. Which is saying something for these two men.

If the Starks succeed, they'll be so far removed from Ned that it's kind of moot. Ned was a very straight-and-narrow, absolutist. Thus far, [blackout]Arya has become a remorseless murderer who is being trained in the deadly arts of being an assassin by those who worship the Many Faced God, Bran is becoming a Warg and delving into magic, Jon murdered a fellow brother of the Nightswatch to hide among the wildlings among whom he broke his vows repeatedly by having sex with Ygritte, and Sansa is being trained how to manipulate and use people as a duplicitous player of the game of thrones by Littlefinger, one of the very men who engineered Ned Stark's death.[/blackout]

If they succeed, it will be because they are no longer playing the game the way Ned did. Nor should they if they hope to live and restore peace.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Ned may have been right in the North and all those instances, but he was not right at all in how he handled the situation in King's Landing. King's Landing is not the North. Things operate differently down there in King's Landing. He tried to be honorable in an inhonerable city full of vipers and he was eaten alive. I admire what he tried to do, but that doesn't make him any less a fool or change the fact that he mishandled the situation and it directly resulted in the outbreak of war. He was the spark that lit the flame essentially. Had he handled it differently and like others tried to get him to handle it then Cersei and Jaime would have been in deep **** and their children would have had absolutely no claim. The crown would have simply went to the next true Baratheon in line. He had absolutely no business whatsoever giving Cersei the headsup. I don't care if she was Robert's wife. No good could come of it, and it served him no advantage.

Which is the entire point. The lower half of Westeros has been distorted and destroyed by these people. You are basically blaming Ned for not being a piece of trash.

I'll take the honorable fools. Much better neighbors and they win in the end.

 

[DACrowe]

By law, Stannis is King. You can continue to deny it, doesn't make it any less true. That is why the Lannisters hide Joffrey's true father.

[BLACKOUT]Remember when Jaime wanted to tell everyone[/BLACKOUT]? Cersei's reaction? End of.

But Stannis has told everyone and people really don't care. As long as Cersei and Joffrey deny it and keep winning the war (right now on the show they're in a pretty good position having aligned with the Tyrells) nobody will care. Does Lord Tyrell support the Lannisters because he thinks they have the best claim or because they stand to give him the most power?

If you are such a stickler for the law, you should hate Stannis because he didn't do what is right and lawful (hunt down and execute Robert for his illegal rebellion), he held Storm's End from the Redwynes and fought alongside Robert's cause. Thus, Stannis is a traitor and deserves to die.

Law in Westerosi is worth very little. Thus, Renly's claim was no more illegitimate than the Stannis-and-Ned-supported Robert claim. But Renly had the crazy notion of not murdering your brother or using black magic to commit what is considered kinslaying, the most heinous crime in Westeros.

Stannis is a hypocrite. If you can judge any character as narrowly as you are, there are none to root for. Well besides Ned. Poor dead Ned.

I am pretty sure Stannis didn't kill him. His wife and Mel did. I believe Stannis only had those commenting blasphemy and/or killing. burned. The others were thrown into cells.

Stannis gave the orders. He is the king, after all.

Stannis is just as flawed and full of hypocrisy as any other character in this story. That's what makes it great to read.

 

[Marvolo]

Which is the entire point. The lower half of Westeros has been distorted and destroyed by these people. You are basically blaming Ned for not being a piece of trash.

I'll take the honorable fools. Much better neighbors and they win in the end.

I'm blaming Ned for not realizing that not every situation can be handled like the North. Ned uses honor like a blunt instrument. He wants to make every situation bend to its will and power. There are rules to the game, and Ned didn't play them. Its honorable, but it also sparked a war that could have been avoided had he handled the situation with a little less honor and a little more common sense. His honor has resulted in the deaths of thousands of Westerossi. If Ned had been a truly honorable man he would have been willing to damn himself and forsake his honor to prevent a war, and the bloodshed that his been wrought by it.

King's Landing was a powder keg and rather than treading softly like everyone suggested he went in with his torch of honor, tripped, and lit the whole damn kingdom on fire.

 

[Roose Bolton]

So you can love 3 different woman with all your soul and being? This guy has found true love more in one lifetime then anyone else I can think of. t:

Do you mean his first wife?

I seem to recall him stating in Clash that his relationship with his first wife wasn't love as such as he was fond of her but even so they had ten years of an assumably good marriage.

Also to break from this particular topic,

Quaithe=Shiera Seastar. It is known.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If the Starks succeed, they'll be so far removed from Ned that it's kind of moot. Ned was a very straight-and-narrow, absolutist. Thus far, [blackout]Arya has become a remorseless murderer who is being trained in the deadly arts of being an assassin by those who worship the Many Faced God, Bran is becoming a Warg and delving into magic, Jon murdered a fellow brother of the Nightswatch to hide among the wildlings among whom he broke his vows repeatedly by having sex with Ygritte, and Sansa is being trained how to manipulate and use people as a duplicitous player of the game of thrones by Littlefinger, one of the very men who engineered Ned Stark's death.[/blackout]

If they succeed, it will be because they are no longer playing the game the way Ned did. Nor should they if they hope to live and restore peace.

First Jon. I am seriously not sure if you are serious.[BLACKOUT] One, Jon didn't kill the Halfhand, Ghost did. Even so, Jon was under orders of his superior to kill him and to hide amongst the Wildings. His shagging of Ygritte. Orders. He did his duty. Don't hate that that duty included booty. [/BLACKOUT] If anything he is proving to be more like Ned everyday.

Arya. [BLACKOUT]She has clearly not forgotten who she is (see Needle). And last I checked it was her father that started her on the Braavos path.[/BLACKOUT]

Bran's [BLACKOUT]warg abilities and the children of the forest are apart of the Stark heritage[/BLACKOUT]. They are descendents of the First Men after all. Don't forget the weirwoods and the Old Gods.

I would give you Sansa, she has always been more like her mother, if I wasn't 99% sure where she was going with this.

In the end, they are all going to do it Stark style. Jon, with Northern [BLACKOUT]leadership[/BLACKOUT], Bran with the [BLACKOUT]forest[/BLACKOUT], and Arya with her [BLACKOUT]army of wolves[/BLACKOUT].

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But Stannis has told everyone and people really don't care. As long as Cersei and Joffrey deny it and keep winning the war (right now on the show they're in a pretty good position having aligned with the Tyrells) nobody will care. Does Lord Tyrell support the Lannisters because he thinks they have the best claim or because they stand to give him the most power?

If you are such a stickler for the law, you should hate Stannis because he didn't do what is right and lawful (hunt down and execute Robert for his illegal rebellion), he held Storm's End from the Redwynes and fought alongside Robert's cause. Thus, Stannis is a traitor and deserves to die.

Law in Westerosi is worth very little. Thus, Renly's claim was no more illegitimate than the Stannis-and-Ned-supported Robert claim. But Renly had the crazy notion of not murdering your brother or using black magic to commit what is considered kinslaying, the most heinous crime in Westeros.

Stannis is a hypocrite. If you can judge any character as narrowly as you are, there are none to root for. Well besides Ned. Poor dead Ned.

Not true. The throne was forfeit when the King decided to stop protecting the realm.

Renly wanted his men to kill Stannis. Is it not kinslaying if you send your men out on to the battlefield to slay your brother?

Stannis gave the orders. He is the king, after all.

Stannis is just as flawed and full of hypocrisy as any other character in this story. That's what makes it great to read.

Actually I am pretty sure you are wrong. I am not positive, but I am pretty certain Sunglass was burned around the same time as Blackwater, and Stannis wasn't there.

The others were killing people and if they weren't, were thrown into cells.

 

[Nevincer]

It makes me sad realizing what a fool Ned was. But it's true, he chose not to play the game and he paid the price.

 

[mr. peasant]

*sigh*

So much book talk - much of which is spoilery involving book characters who haven't been introduced in the show, and quite a bit of it unhidden. You all do know there is a separate thread specifically for the books, right?

Let's keep the discussion square on the show itself. This is, after all, the Game of Thrones discussion thread, and not A Song of Ice and Fire.

It makes me sad realizing what a fool Ned was. But it's true, he chose not to play the game and he paid the price.

Worse, he was somewhat inconsistent in how he applied his morals. He was against the idea about taking Cersei's children as hostage to ease the handover to Stannis yet was perfectly fine taking Theon as a hostage to prevent the Greyjoys from further rebellion. Had he remembered doing the latter, the entire war could have been averted.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Cersei and her kids wouldn't have been hostages. They would of had their heads cut off.

 

[Nevincer]

Yeah, I love the show but I'm not too active in this thread as it gets really in depth in here and usually book spoilers come into play.

 

[chamber-music]

I just realized that the guy who plays the Hound is Timothy Dalton's 'Yarp' supermarket henchmen in Hot Fuzz.

 

[mr. peasant]

I just realized that the guy who plays the Hound is Timothy Dalton's 'Yarp' supermarket henchmen in Hot Fuzz.

Yarp.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I just realized that the guy who plays the Hound is Timothy Dalton's 'Yarp' supermarket henchmen in Hot Fuzz.

Good God

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

my head just exploded

 

[Pink Ranger]

He may be a cripple who rides in a basket on a half-wit, but he's destined for something great.

Bran will learn the art of alchemy and hurl acid bombs and healing spells as he rides Hodor into battle.

Seriously though, I wonder if the Warcraft 3 designers based certain characters on GOT.

 

[smashmode]

I just realized that the guy who plays the Hound is Timothy Dalton's 'Yarp' supermarket henchmen in Hot Fuzz.

OMG

 

[smashmode]

Shirt at Teefury!

Black Stag Stout

 

[Poeman]

I am still on book 5 lol, bought the book day it came out last year...Since GRRM got me so mad with the wait, I have been taking the sweetest time of my life

 

[ChickenScratch]

Stannis is not a nice man, all he cares about is the throne.

Read on, or watch on. But you did make me laugh.

Love seeing how wrong people are this early in. Jamie's this, Jorah is that, etc. Wait till you find out the4 real character of Stannis and his importance to the protection of the realm.

 

[Matt]

Don't be rude Chicken Scratch. At any rate, I am starting to agree that discussion of the books are becoming too spoiler heavy in this thread. No more talking about the books in here guys. We have a whole thread for that in the Books and Music forum. Take it there if you want to talk books (that includes cryptic little hints CS).

 

[ChickenScratch]

*sigh*

So much book talk - much of which is spoilery involving book characters who haven't been introduced in the show, and quite a bit of it unhidden. You all do know there is a separate thread specifically for the books, right?
Let's keep the discussion square on the show itself. This is, after all, the Game of Thrones discussion thread, and not A Song of Ice and Fire.
Worse, he was somewhat inconsistent in how he applied his morals. He was against the idea about taking Cersei's children as hostage to ease the handover to Stannis yet was perfectly fine taking Theon as a hostage to prevent the Greyjoys from further rebellion. Had he remembered doing the latter, the entire war could have been averted.

So you are comparing taking the son of a lesser house to taking the recognized heirs to the throne? And when was he gonna take these kids? On the road to King's Landing when Rob Was still alive? When he was just killed and security was super high. Ned and his small retinue is not gonna fight their way out of Kings Landing and to the north fighting kingsguard, Baratheons, Lannisters and all the other houses who had knnights in residence so sooon after the joust.