Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 4

[DarthSkywalker]

Why would you open the spoiler if you didnt want the answer. Don't ask, wait and see, or read the books.

I have read the books. The problem I have is if someone simply wanted to know if the character reappeared, you told them much more then that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You'll like to hear that I'd agree with your criticism for episode 8. I thought it was very weak and should have moved the story along further.

This season hasn't been perfect in terms of its pacing, but unlike other shows, it has to balance like a dozen story climaxes a season.

Episode 8 could not progress the story past Blackwater. Do to the budget Mance, the Reeds, Ramsey Snow and others were not able to be cast this season. Thus you can't progress the story that much without these characters.

The more I think about it, the more I don't think one hour will be enough to cover everything they're leaving for episode 10:

Spoiler

-The burning of Winterfell.
-Robb marrying Talisa and breaking it to his mother.
-Some follow-up on Jaime and Brienne.
-Fall-out in King's Landing.
-Ser Dontos is likely going to appear to Sansa.
-Jon is going to have to fight Quorin to the death and convince the Lord of Bones to take him to Mance Rayder.
-Jaqen meeting up with Arya and giving that storyline closure.
-Three blasts and the Battle for the Fist of the First Men.
-And oh yeah, freaking House of the Undying as well as Dany's escape.

I hope they're allowed to make it a 90 minute episode or something to do all those plot threads justice for the finale.

The episode is 63 minutes and it should be more then enough time, especially when you consider that most of King's Landing pretty much ends this Sunday.

 

[mr. peasant]

Not really, I'm just not obsessively snobbish about the source material. I'd rather see a well crafted, well paced story, with likable characters that fits the medium than one that goes 8 weeks with nothing happening aside from unlikable old men sitting in rooms talking that stays "loyal," to the source.

Unfortunately, if you're looking for a well-paced story with likable characters, then A Song of Ice and Fire probably isn't a particularly good choice to work with. While it is a good work of literature, this is mainly because it is a fantastic exercise in worldbuilding. While GRRM can be applauded for being able to map out and keep track of the series' convoluted plot, it is - and never was - told in a particularly sleek or efficient way. Especially with how far apart the original and/or 'main' characters are, it's hard to imagine how they will all contribute to a single, unified plot/resolution. Rather, there are likely to be multiple unrelated story threads; i.e. the book series is multiple stories trying to be told as one.

This season hasn't been perfect in terms of its pacing, but unlike other shows, it has to balance like a dozen story climaxes a season.

Episode 8 could not progress the story past Blackwater. Do to the budget Mance, the Reeds, Ramsey Snow and others were not able to be cast this season. Thus you can't progress the story that much without these characters.

At the risk of potentially sounding sacrilegious to avid book fans, I honestly think that the show should have cut the first half of Stannis' side of the story out (e.g. have Catelyn leave for Robb's camp before Stannis arrives) and instead built him up as an unseen character until Blackwater where he makes his first appearance (either at a climactic/dramatic point or during its aftermath). For instance, have Renly's death occur offscreen with the show instead spending more time on the panicked and confused reactions of the other factions (Robb did lose a strong ally!) with them speculating on how he managed to pull it off (which was done a little in the show).

Indeed, this was pretty much that side of the story's single contribution to the season thus far. I think holding back on Stannis and Melisandre's introductions until later would have bought the show a lot more breathing room to better develop other scenes (e.g. actually show a little of Jaime's first escape instead of making it look like he got caught as soon as he killed Karstark's son) and ulimately tightened up and strengthen the show.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That sounds terrible and would have forced the show to explain all these characters next season, when they have even less time to do it. Stannis and Mel are two of the most important characters in the series and their early bits set the foundation for who they are.

Also strange to have the battle of the five kings, without the kings.

Also from a budget point, they couldn't do that. What some seem to be missing is that they are trying to avoid paying and locking up actors for seasons for only a few episodes.

Think Jaqen with the hood over his face at the end of the fist season.

 

[Matt]

I actually don't think it is a terrible idea. It isn't like he would pop up out of no where. It would build mystery around Stannis and make him a force in the viewers mind when he finally appears rather than just some middle age guy who keeps whining about how the throne is his birthright.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

It's a bad idea. One of the things that made me want to pick up ACOK immediately was finding out about Stannis. He's an immensely important character, there's too much that happens in ASOS to push his introduction back into that.

 

[Matt]

I've found Stannis to be one of the most underwhelming aspects of the season. I expected a bad ass, stoic warrior. Instead we get a guy who is exactly what Renly described....boring as **** and impossible to like.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Well, he's both. He's just like many characters, breaking the more common archetypes. Take Jaime, he is literally a knight in shining armor but he's an immense prick who is screwing his twin sister and attempts to kill a boy.

There are only 3-4 Davos chapters in ACOK and his is the only POV we get of Stannis. There's a lot more of him in ASOS. You may not like him but you will respect him for one thing he does. [blackout]He's the only king who lives up to the "Protector of the Realm" title[/blackout]

 

[Matt]

Sometimes the archetypes are archetypes for a reason. Putting so much focus on sadistic and boring characters just for the sake of not being a cliche fantasy story is one of GRRM's biggest flaws as an author, IMO. He is so obsessed with being different that he will let his story suffer to be different.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Stannis and Davos's end to the season would not make sense if you held off introducing them.

Hint it involves the return of [BLACKOUT]Mel[/BLACKOUT].

 

[Marvolo]

Sometimes the archetypes are archetypes for a reason. Putting so much focus on sadistic and boring characters just for the sake of not being a cliche fantasy story is one of GRRM's biggest flaws as an author, IMO. He is so obsessed with being different that he will let his story suffer to be different.

Is that a slight against the books you haven't read?

I can not wait for Blackwater! Its been so long since I read the book that I've forgotten the finer details so I may get some surprises.

 

[mr. peasant]

That sounds terrible and would have forced the show to explain all these characters next season, when they have even less time to do it. Stannis and Mel are two of the most important characters in the series and their early bits set the foundation for who they are.

Also strange to have the battle of the five kings, without the kings.

From what I hear, the creators seem to think that the third book will be adapted into two seasons; in which case, there's plenty of time to introduce them then. In the mean time, the show can simply develop them as unseen characters.

As for it being strange to have the War of the Five Kings without the kings, I seem to recall Robb not really featuring all that much in book 2.

Also from a budget point, they couldn't do that. What some seem to be missing is that they are trying to avoid paying and locking up actors for seasons for only a few episodes.

Think Jaqen with the hood over his face at the end of the fist season.

Not quite the same since Jaqen is [blackout]a minor character who's only relevant this book/season[/blackout]. By your own admission, Stannis and Melisandre are two of the most important characters in the series; thereby making it 'worth' locking them down. In fact, I don't see how what I'm suggesting makes the costs on the cast any more expensive than what they've currently got. In fact, it's potentially cheaper since they wouldn't have needed to cast or feature Davos until next season.

Well, he's both. He's just like many characters, breaking the more common archetypes. Take Jaime, he is literally a knight in shining armor but he's an immense prick who is screwing his twin sister and attempts to kill a boy.

Basically, he's a Knight in Sour Armour.

Stannis and Davos's end to the season would not make sense if you held off introducing them.

Hint it involves the return of [BLACKOUT]Mel[/BLACKOUT].

Can't remember anything specific about that blacked out word that happens in the next book would be difficult to do by introducing Stannis toward the end of season 2.


And honestly, I'm shocked by how casual, often and explicit some of the book fans are when discussing spoilers in this thread. I can only imagine a good number of people are turned off by this thread or are deliberately avoiding it so as not to risk seeing spoilers.

 

[Matt]

Is that a slight against the books you haven't read?

I can not wait for Blackwater! Its been so long since I read the book that I've forgotten the finer details so I may get some surprises.

I've read AGOT and half of ACOK before being turned off by GRRM's cheap writing style (yep, I said it) and quitting.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

That's like leaving 20 min into The Avengers because there hasn't been any good action yet. You didn't read some of the most exciting chapters of the series in ACOK and the best book in ASOS. But I wouldn't expect someone who likes The Walking Dead to have good taste anyway

 

[chaseter]

Oh snizzle.

 

[Matt]

That's like leaving 20 min into The Avengers because there hasn't been any good action yet. You didn't read some of the most exciting chapters of the series in ACOK and the best book in ASOS. But I wouldn't expect someone who likes The Walking Dead to have good taste anyway

Actually, I condemn The Walking Dead more than just about anyone else on the board.

Regarding leaving because there hasn't been action, it has nothing to do with that. Martin's writing is cheap and soap opera-esque. It creates artificial drama with easily resolvable (and often repetitive) cliff hangers at the end of chapters, then makes the reader wait 70 pages to resolve them. It isn't good writing, IMO. Factor in that it is heavily convoluted and in desperate need of streamlining and I just had no tolerance for it.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

As a reader, I'm pretty terrible. It takes me months to read a book that's even 300 pages yet I was able to read the first 3 books in 6 weeks. Some chapters go on and the ones early on are a little tough to figure out what exactly is going on but you get it later. The cliffhangers at the end are a tease, but I have no problem with them. You may finish a chapter with a cliffhanger but there's another one that will answer your questions from earlier in the book. I can get through about 40-60 pages a night which is probably more than what most people's schedules allow.

 

[Buford The Sly]

Anyone see the confirmation of what this season will end on? [BLACKOUT]Three Blasts![/BLACKOUT]

 

[mr. peasant]

That's like leaving 20 min into The Avengers because there hasn't been any good action yet. You didn't read some of the most exciting chapters of the series in ACOK and the best book in ASOS. But I wouldn't expect someone who likes The Walking Dead to have good taste anyway

Personal attacks... really? Thought we were more mature than that. Then, I remembered that I was on the internet.

Fact is, the main purpose of literature such as novels, TV shows and movies is to provoke thought or to entertain, first and foremost. A Song of Ice and Fire doesn't really do the former. And if you're not getting the latter after the entirety of the first book itself, he or she should very well drop it. Heck, I'd go so far as the first three chapters or fifty pages. Same if you didn't enjoy the first 20 minutes of the Avengers. Anyone who sticks it out despite not liking something is simply a masochist.

 

[Matt]

As a reader, I'm pretty terrible. It takes me months to read a book that's even 300 pages yet I was able to read the first 3 books in 6 weeks. Some chapters go on and the ones early on are a little tough to figure out what exactly is going on but you get it later. The cliffhangers at the end are a tease, but I have no problem with them. You may finish a chapter with a cliffhanger but there's another one that will answer your questions from earlier in the book. I can get through about 40-60 pages a night which is probably more than what most people's schedules allow.

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[PWN3R]

Actually, I condemn The Walking Dead more than just about anyone else on the board.

Regarding leaving because there hasn't been action, it has nothing to do with that. Martin's writing is cheap and soap opera-esque. It creates artificial drama with easily resolvable (and often repetitive) cliff hangers at the end of chapters, then makes the reader wait 70 pages to resolve them. It isn't good writing, IMO. Factor in that it is heavily convoluted and in desperate need of streamlining and I just had no tolerance for it.

Can you offer any examples about Martin's style being "heavily convoluted"?

I began reading this series due to the show, and I just finished ACoK. I almost didn't bother because I don't read this genre, and my biggest concern was it being convoluted. However, Martin's writing is clear and interesting. And he loves boiled leather.

You have to credit the man for juggling so many characters and not having cluster**** after cluster****. It's addictive reading from a character standpoint.

I do agree about some chapters just ending on similar notes as before. But he is building a universe, so there's that.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Personal attacks... really? Thought we were more mature than that. Then, I remembered that I was on the internet.

It was a joke, that's why I used a

Fact is, the main purpose of literature such as novels, TV shows and movies is to provoke thought or to entertain, first and foremost. A Song of Ice and Fire doesn't really do the former. And if you're not getting the latter after the entirety of the first book itself, he or she should very well drop it. Heck, I'd go so far as the first three chapters or fifty pages. Same if you didn't enjoy the first 20 minutes of the Avengers. Anyone who sticks it out despite not liking something is simply a masochist.

Ok, fine. But then why continue watching the show if you complain about it every week for being too similar to the books? Just seems like an immense waste of time. If you're going to stick through the show, at least finish up to ASOS.

 

[Matt]

Can you offer any examples about Martin's style being "heavily convoluted"?

I began reading this series due to the show, and I just finished ACoK. I almost didn't bother because I don't read this genre, and my biggest concern was it being convoluted. However, Martin's writing is clear and interesting. And he loves boiled leather.

You have to credit the man for juggling so many characters and not having cluster**** after cluster****. It's addictive reading from a character standpoint.

I do agree about some chapters just ending on similar notes as before. But he is building a universe, so there's that.

There are so many characters and ongoing storylines that I almost need a flow chart to keep track of it all. That is what I mean by convoluted. Yes, I guess that they all tie together somehow (though based on what I hear, it has yet to happen). But it has reached the point where I feel like I am reading several short stories rather than one streamlined one.

J.K. Rowling built a world with Harry Potter. Tolkein built a world with The Hobbit and LOTR. But they never sacrificed the story at hand to build a world. Instead they tied it all together in a way that advances the plot of the story being told. I never get this vibe from GRRM's writing. Sometimes it even feels like GRRM realizes he has done this, gotten off track and made unimportant characters/plots in the name of padding the mythology...so he responds by just killing them off for the hell of it.

It was a joke, that's why I used a

You make condescending comments and hide behind the excuse of a 'joke with a smiley face,' a lot.

 

[DACrowe]

I've found Stannis to be one of the most underwhelming aspects of the season. I expected a bad ass, stoic warrior. Instead we get a guy who is exactly what Renly described....boring as **** and impossible to like.

He's exactly what Renly described. However, there should be some sense of honor and decency about him. A sense of tarnished nobility. Either the writers or actor have not brought that out. When I read the book, I pictured a young Patrick Stewart performing his version of MacBeth.

He's the only character--well him and Asha/Yara--whose disappointed me this season. I think if they had done a better job of introducing him, instead of waiting until episode 8 to finally give him some development, audiences may have connected to the character better for the show.

 

[DACrowe]

Is that a slight against the books you haven't read?

I can not wait for Blackwater! Its been so long since I read the book that I've forgotten the finer details so I may get some surprises.

I do enjoy how two posters who haven't read the books are not just going after the show, but dissecting what they view as the numerous problems in GRRM's writing and storytelling.

Hey, I haven't read the Harry Potter books, but based off the movies I think Rowling is too exposition heavy and has too many side-characters she leaves undeveloped and kills off unsatisfyingly. All in all she should have rewritten....

It just doesn't work like that, in my opinion.