I never read the books and Sandor's fear of fire was brutally obvious.
I never looked at Loras wearing Renly's armor as anything more than a dedication to him, since he swore vengeance on Stannis. I don't think it was witchcraft that scared them away, I think it was the fact that there was a ton more enemy troops coming towards them.
You'll have to wait a bit longer I'm afraid. As always, I always watch GOT the next day and being as today is a holiday, I can't be certain that I'll have opportunity.
If I were to complain (and I really can't) then it would be that we weren't exposed to Tywin's incoming army as we were in the book; having Stannis' men mistake them for Renly returning from the grave. It's probably deducible anyway, but I remember the shivers running through me thinking that King's Landing had been defended by the spirit of an avenging brother.
That said, this episode was probably the best thing I've seen on TV. GRRM and co should pat themselves on the back, and then some. I didn't even miss the absence of Tyrion's chain. Seeing Davos and the fleet go up in green ethereal flame was stunning.
And my brother who hasn't read the books got it instantly. My mother, who can barely remember who Renly is, understood the fire bit. Not the writers or directors fault some people are thick. It would be understandable if it was one moment. It was several. At some point you have to connect the dots. Not to mention the big scar we all know was caused by.... FIRE!
I disagree with that statement. It's very much the writers and directors' job to ensure those watching it understand the story as fully as possible. Bear in mind, my argument at its basis isn't that it wasn't shown at all but that it wasn't well indicated.
It could have been fire or it could have been the fighting - both were present in every shot from his perspective. Moreover, why that moment? There was plenty of flames - especially when Bronn first set the ships on fire. Why didn't he seem more fearful when he was first sent out into the battlefield when the fire was at its fiercest? Why did he break down at that very moment?
The fear of fire comes off as very left field and strange that it hadn't been brought up before then. His having a burn scar makes it understandable if he had a burn scar but it doesn't indicate that he necessarily had one. Remember that in that kind of setting, fire is an essential neccesity; both for warmth against the cold and in order to see at night. So, for it to have never been brought up or foreshadowed in a clear way until now when it became a plot critical event makes it feel rather out of the blue.
You second point makes no sense because Sandor is never a good human being to anyone except... Sansa. That is the entire point. We are talking about the one person he makes an effort with, even though he clearly shouldn't, as it conflicted with his job. Her fiance, his master, has his men strip and beat her. Sandor saves her, protects her, comforts her. The dichotomy is clear.
Tonight he literally told the king to F' off, but did not do so with Sansa. He offered to rescue her. His feelings were made very clear.
Again, his intention here was clear. But there wasn't much build-up on how they got there. To say that Sandor is never a good man would be a gross over-generalisation. He's done good things before such as coming to Loras' aid against his brother, Gregor. He then kneels before King Robert at the latter's command in mid-battle despite Gregor taking a swing at him. The first time Sandor shows kindness to Sansa is when her father was first killed. All subsequent times thereafter were in response to people mistreating her. What all of this does is indicate that Sandor is a more decent person than he looks like and what people think.
Yes, he's done bad things before - but from what we've seen, they're only ever against male characters; which shows no indication what his usual treatment of women would be like. In addition, all his acts of kindness towards Sansa has always been reactive - in response to her being mistreated. Here, he actively offers to take her with him. That's several steps up the relationship ladder. Kind of like feeding a hungry stray dog and outright adopting it.
Still, the scene showed Stannis spooked at a warrior in the armor that I am pretty sure Renly wore in every episode he was in this season with the exception of his bed time with the Tyrell siblings. The armor was removed right before his death.
Renly never wore a helm - instead, it was a crown - throughout the season. In addition, Loras' armour was hidden under a heavy cloak; making it impossible to see enough of it to identify it as anyone's in particular - never mind Renly's not being near distinctive enough to recognise it through a split second glimpse of it (as opposed to say... Sandor's hound helm).
Good show, I knew they would wuss out and never get Tyrion as injured as he is in the books. Guess they didnt want to ugly up the actor too much or firgure out how to do that particular disfigurment.
Loras wearing Renley's armor need not be dwelt upon. The Baratheon's are the Stags, it should be quite easy to notice Loras not wearing the Flowers.
Renly wore distinct armor? I vaguely recall him wearing a distinct crown. That was probably lost to non-readers. Might have worked if he had a distinct helmet.
The characters in this show just get more and more interesting each episode. I wish something interesting would happen with Jon Snow and Dany here pretty soon, because those sections are just kind of dragging on. The stuff with the war and Tyrion and Stannis has all my attention. That's some damn fine television.
The characters in this show just get more and more interesting each episode. I wish something interesting would happen with Jon Snow and Dany here pretty soon, because those sections are just kind of dragging on. The stuff with the war and Tyrion and Stannis has all my attention. That's some damn fine television.
I'm happy I had the War to keep my interest this season, because if it was simply a story of Dany and Snow, this would have been a less than thrilling season. Blackwater though was the highlight of the series, without a doubt.
But first, credit where credit is due: The episode as a whole in and of itself was flat out fantastic. Both, its technical aspects and its pacing were well done - the latter further evidence that a tighter story focusing on fewer subplots and locations make for better storytelling on television. The dialogue was sharp the characters spot on. The only puzzler for me was the Bronn-Sandor scene at the start of the episode. It created a new, antagonistic dynamic between two characters who had previously never interacted with one another in a meaningful way only for said dynamic lead to nowhere in the episode. I suppose it was meant to showcase the tension amongst the soldiers before the battle and using two named characters was simply the show's way of accentuating the point.
That said, it is continuity where the episode suffered and you can tell it was a different writer here than to other episodes; one who didn't quite read all of the previous scripts or at least never saw the final, filmed versions of them to realise what had and hadn't been shown previously.
For starters, there was Sandor's desertion from the battlefield. What had been simply been a case of overwhelming pyrophobia became unclear - looking more like battle fatigue or panic and the Hound wimping out. The only reference to this fear or fire before this was a single offhand comment by Littlefinger back in season 1 in a scene that was more about his brother, Gregor than about Sandor. As such, the show should have brought it up again in a previous episode or in an earlier part of this episode (e.g. have Bronn and his crew sitting by a roaring fire and inviting Sandor to drink by it only for the latter to rebuff the offer and Bronn to taunt him about it) to provide foreshadowing and help the audience remember this minor, forgettable detail.
Second is again about Sandor - though in this case it was the Sandor-Sansa scene. In the past two seasons, it was never established that Sandor treated Sansa any differently than he did other people. In fact, he reported Sansa's menses to Cersei after catching her and Shae trying to cover up for the fact; firmly establishing his loyalty to the crown over his view of this one girl. Over the course of the season, Sandor received less attention and development than I thought he would; certainly not enough to explain this. Perhaps if they had changed it so that Sandor explained wanting an in with the Starks to escape the Lannisters' wrath for deserting his post.
Lastly, there's Loras' arrival. In the books, I vaguely remember it being described in such a way as though it was actually Renly back from the dead taking his revenge on Stannis, when it was in truth Loras wearing Renly's armour. This was mimicked in the show - as seen by Loras' use of a stag helm. Unfortunately, we never got a clear view of said helm and we never saw Renly wear this helm. Perhaps if the show had shown Renly using a more distinctive looking set of armour (e.g. a stag head for a helm a la Sandor's hound head) in the scenes at his camp. However, even I recognise this is nitpicky.
That said, while a number of the issues I highlighted are somewhat nitpicky, I feel these criticisms are justified since said details were clear in the books and the show was indeed aiming to achieve them; based on how the scenes were shot and their approach to remain faithful to the events in the books. In which case, they did not meet their own intentions.
When we watched it last night, my friend, who has never read the books and only watched S1 once, got immediately that Sandor was scared of the fire. A guy with half his face burned off by his older brother tended to stick in her mind.
I thought the scene with Sandor and Sansa was fine--though I prefer its more menacing version in the book complete with the song.
I do agree with the last point you made. But I think the show's writers just decided to include that detail from the book as an easter egg. It's too hard to explain as it's unrelated to the plot and pace of the story, so book fans can catch it, but it's not a big deal that non-readers missed it. But I see your point in that regard.
I never read the books and Sandor's fear of fire was brutally obvious.
I never looked at Loras wearing Renly's armor as anything more than a dedication to him, since he swore vengeance on Stannis. I don't think it was witchcraft that scared them away, I think it was the fact that there was a ton more enemy troops coming towards them.
Good show, I knew they would wuss out and never get Tyrion as injured as he is in the books. Guess they didnt want to ugly up the actor too much or firgure out how to do that particular disfigurment.
Loras wearing Renley's armor need not be dwelt upon. The Baratheon's are the Stags, it should be quite easy to notice Loras not wearing the Flowers.
Well keep in mind to remove his nose would mean a costly prosthetic (one that may limit his acting ability) that would also requires hours of make-up every day Dinklage is on set. And considering Tyrion will likely be in almost every episode of the series, that's a lot of time and money spent just to disfiguring Tyrion gruesomely.
Plus, Dinklage already looks awesome as Tyrion. Now, he has a fashionable scar to look even cooler.
I expect Dany, Theon and Jon to have the big scenes (in that order) next week. I'm hoping they give Arya something cool to do as well as, like ACOK, they built up her journey to and through Harrenhal so well, but they fumbled the climax (her escape from Harrenhal) in episode 8. Perhaps, she'll get one of her big ASOS scenes next week only with Jaqen subbing for [blackout]Sandor?[/blackout] Otherwise, they kind of dropped the ball considering she was one of the highlight of episodes 2-7 and then they just quit.
I disagree with that statement. It's very much the writers and directors' job to ensure those watching it understand the story as fully as possible. Bear in mind, my argument at its basis isn't that it wasn't shown at all but that it wasn't well indicated.
It could have been fire or it could have been the fighting - both were present in every shot from his perspective. Moreover, why that moment? There was plenty of flames - especially when Bronn first set the ships on fire. Why didn't he seem more fearful when he was first sent out into the battlefield when the fire was at its fiercest? Why did he break down at that very moment?
The fear of fire comes off as very left field and strange that it hadn't been brought up before then. His having a burn scar makes it understandable if he had a burn scar but it doesn't indicate that he necessarily had one. Remember that in that kind of setting, fire is an essential neccesity; both for warmth against the cold and in order to see at night. So, for it to have never been brought up or foreshadowed in a clear way until now when it became a plot critical event makes it feel rather out of the blue.
You cannot put it on the writers and directors if everyone doesn't get everything. This thread has shown you plenty of people without foreknowledge that understood it without any trouble. What makes those that missed it more correct?
And its out of left field. We have the story, which they dedicated a nice bit of time to, and we have the several ques in this very episode.
And of course it wasn't the fighting. We know it doesn't effect him.
Again, his intention here was clear. But there wasn't much build-up on how they got there. To say that Sandor is never a good man would be a gross over-generalisation. He's done good things before such as coming to Loras' aid against his brother, Gregor. He then kneels before King Robert at the latter's command in mid-battle despite Gregor taking a swing at him. The first time Sandor shows kindness to Sansa is when her father was first killed. All subsequent times thereafter were in response to people mistreating her. What all of this does is indicate that Sandor is a more decent person than he looks like and what people think.
Yes, he's done bad things before - but from what we've seen, they're only ever against male characters; which shows no indication what his usual treatment of women would be like. In addition, all his acts of kindness towards Sansa has always been reactive - in response to her being mistreated. Here, he actively offers to take her with him. That's several steps up the relationship ladder. Kind of like feeding a hungry stray dog and outright adopting it.
I love how you bring fighting his brother and protecting the king, like they are some random acts of kindness. The man he hates more then any other and his employer.
Renly never wore a helm - instead, it was a crown - throughout the season. In addition, Loras' armour was hidden under a heavy cloak; making it impossible to see enough of it to identify it as anyone's in particular - never mind Renly's not being near distinctive enough to recognise it through a split second glimpse of it (as opposed to say... Sandor's hound helm).
I guess they wanted to give out the shock reveal of the Tyrell's joining the Lannister's compared to it being mentioned earlier in the book following Renly's death. Thought it was handled well though.
And I wonder if that random soldier who slashed Tyrion's face could still have been Mandon Moore or not. I guess it would have been expensive for Tyrion to continue the remainder of the show without a nose too. I can live with it. Just better hope they still have Jaime [blackout]lose his hand by the Goat though.[/blackout]
I'm confused about something. Did Sansa stay or did she leave with Sandor?
Also, I wonder if Davos survived. Seems highly improbable given the devastation, but if that was to be his death I'd expect they would've shown him on fire rather than getting hit by the shockwave.
I was surprsied that the Lannisters won the battle. I thought for sure they would lose especially with how unrvalled Cersei was getting, drinking away and accepting her fate. I thought they were done for and this was gonig to serve as a lesson for what happens under utter incompetent and arrogant leadership (Joffrey).
Man I cant want till this season comes out on Bluray bc the entire battle will be glorious to watch
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