Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 6

[DarthSkywalker]

Renly let the Tyrell's control him. It got him killed and it is why Loras blames himself.

 

[Lord]

Treasonous in the sense that he decided to just declare himself king rather than support the rightful king. The reason this even started was because Ned discovered that the Lannisters had an illegitimate heir to the throne, and despite Renly's comments, it was about the line of succession. But Renly just decides, "hey, my time to shine," abandons Ned rather than support him (sure, Ned didn't agree with his plan, but Renly could have at least taken the Lannisters captive and figured out the whole "who's the rightful king" bit later), rallies up a decent majority of westerosi bannermen, and does nothing with them. Leaving the smallfolk, and Cat's daughters at the mercy of the Lannisters while he inches his way south as Robb Stark (who, keep in mind, has no interest in the iron throne) is engaging the Lannister forces as best as he can to essentially rescue two people.

Why should he support his brother if he doesn't think he is the right man for the throne? Renly did as Ned wanted and after the plan turned badly he couldn't do a thing because the Lannisters were holding the throne, if he tried to do anything he would suffer Ned's fate. He wasn't doing anything yet with his troops for the same reason Stannis wasn't, they were taking their oun time, why would he just attack somebody right after rallying up his army if he didn't even have a plan yet.

And as far as Stannis resorting to Melisandre's witchcraft to assassinate Renly, the man said it himself, "Cleaner ways don't win wars." He confronted Renly first, laid out his terms, gave him ample opportunity to fall in line, and when he didn't, Stannis used the only means he had available to him to try and secure what was his by birthright. If he'd had the numbers to take Renly in the field, I believe he would have ("Blackwater" shows he has no objections to taking to battle personally), but he's also no going to sit back and let Renly take what is his, just because Renly is well-liked.

I said as an answer to you calling Renly treacherou, Stannis has shoun this more, in fact as he said to win wars you have to resort to those sort of tricks, another reason to why Renly died so soon. If i remember it well during their meeting was basically Stannis crying "i'm the rightful king", while Renly showed good reasons why he should rule.

And wasn't it already established that there was no real rightful king in this thread? There's no concrete proof to the kingdom that Joffrey isn't the rightful heir except for rumors. They're all just fighting for power, escept for the Stark's who are fighting to get their family back, Stannis is no more rightfull heir to the throne than Danny or Joffrey.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Renly doesn't even want to be king, his boyfriend talked him into it. That right there is enough to explain how stupid Renly and his "ambition" was.

 

[The Navigator]

Why should he support his brother if he doesn't think he is the right man for the throne? Renly did as Ned wanted and after the plan turned badly he couldn't do a thing because the Lannisters were holding the throne, if he tried to do anything he would suffer Ned's fate.

Renly didn't do anything Ned wanted, he said "give me an hour, I can get a hundred swords and we can take control away from the Lannisters." Ned has one of his trademark "honor before reason" moments, says no, and instead of the younger Baratheon putting the good of the realm before the good of the Renly, abandons Ned to his fate, marries Margaery, and has a nice tourney.

Stannis is capable of putting the good of the realm before himself, but one of the primary examples is a book spoiler, so I won't put that.

He wasn't doing anything yet with his troops for the same reason Stannis wasn't, they were taking their oun time, why would he just attack somebody right after rallying up his army if he didn't even have a plan yet.

In the show he had an opportunity, presented by Littlefinger of "facing a protracted siege...or open gates." He dismisses Littlefinger as disloyal rather than using a semi-confessed traitor to his advantage and then doing away with him, and so prolongs the conflicts, the bloodshed, and the reign of that little ass Joffrey.

And the reason Stannis wasn't doing anything was that he had no forces to do anything with. Sallador Saan provided the ships but not the men to crew them, so to an admiral on the king's council, it's a gun without bullets. Renly, meanwhile, has enough men to likely smash Tywin Lannister's army if he had the capability to use them correctly, and only promises to descend on King's Landing rather than being shown strategizing or even concerned that he's on the brink of an invasion. Cat even calls him out on this ("It's a game to you, isn't it?") and he brusquely sends her away.

I said as an answer to you calling Renly treacherou, Stannis has shoun this more, in fact as he said to win wars you have to resort to those sort of tricks, another reason to why Renly died so soon. If i remember it well during their meeting was basically Stannis crying "i'm the rightful king", while Renly showed good reasons why he should rule.

Treason =/= treachery. I was specifically criticizing Renly on declaring himself king rather than using trickery. I would have been perfectly okay with him telling Ned to go sod off and arrest the Lannisters as long as he didn't sit the iron throne himself.

Renly's objections to Stannis are, "we all know what Stannis is", and "he inspires no love or loyalty". This is not a good foundation to declare oneself the superior ruler, especially when one has no experience ruling or commanding anything.

Stannis doesn't have to provide reasons because he has proven himself. He smashed the Iron fleets during the Greyjoy rebellion and would have put an end to the Targaryen line if [book spoiler? I don't remember] hadn't helped smuggle Dani and Viserys out of dragonstone. He is regarded as hard but fair by the people who know him or of him--hell, even the guy who has four less fingertips thinks he's a good man.

And wasn't it already established that there was no real rightful king in this thread? There's no concrete proof to the kingdom that Joffrey isn't the rightful heir except for rumors. They're all just fighting for power, escept for the Stark's who are fighting to get their family back, Stannis is no more rightfull heir to the throne than Danny or Joffrey.

Rumors that happen to be true, and Renly and Stannis both know this. Fighting for power doesn't enter into it where Stannis is concerned. He's going to do his duty, in this case to the realm, and want doesn't enter into it.

 

[Ramsay Snow]

And wasn't it already established that there was no real rightful king in this thread? There's no concrete proof to the kingdom that Joffrey isn't the rightful heir except for rumors. They're all just fighting for power, escept for the Stark's who are fighting to get their family back, Stannis is no more rightfull heir to the throne than Danny or Joffrey.

Ned learn the truth. the late King Robert had no trueborn sons. Cersei admitted to Ned of her incest and stuff. Joffrey is an illegitimate heir and he ordered all the other illegitimate sons of the late king dead. Stannis is the rightful heir since he's the late king's oldest brother. Stannis doesn't even care about the throne and power, he's just following what he believes is the law.

Of course, the way he does stuff, thanks to the red witch, is crazy and I definitely do not support that. I think the red witch will be his downfall, unless he ditches her or something.

 

[Lord]

Renly didn't do anything Ned wanted, he said "give me an hour, I can get a hundred swords and we can take control away from the Lannisters." Ned has one of his trademark "honor before reason" moments, says no, and instead of the younger Baratheon putting the good of the realm before the good of the Renly, abandons Ned to his fate, marries Margaery, and has a nice tourney.

Ned told him he didn't want help and Renly did as Ned said, don't see how that's trickery.

Stannis is capable of putting the good of the realm before himself, but one of the primary examples is a book spoiler, so I won't put that.

then tag it, either way we're talking about wht has happened up until now, and Stannis hasn't proved to be a very good "king" to his people.

In the show he had an opportunity, presented by Littlefinger of "facing a protracted siege...or open gates." He dismisses Littlefinger as disloyal rather than using a semi-confessed traitor to his advantage and then doing away with him, and so prolongs the conflicts, the bloodshed, and the reign of that little ass Joffrey.

You trust Littlefinger? He's not somebody easy to manipulate.

And the reason Stannis wasn't doing anything was that he had no forces to do anything with. Sallador Saan provided the ships but not the men to crew them, so to an admiral on the king's council, it's a gun without bullets. Renly, meanwhile, has enough men to likely smash Tywin Lannister's army if he had the capability to use them correctly, and only promises to descend on King's Landing rather than being shown strategizing or even concerned that he's on the brink of an invasion. Cat even calls him out on this ("It's a game to you, isn't it?") and he brusquely sends her away.

Renly was blocking the food suply to king's landing and waiting for the right moment while the Lannisters and Starks wore each other out.

Treason =/= treachery. I was specifically criticizing Renly on declaring himself king rather than using trickery. I would have been perfectly okay with him telling Ned to go sod off and arrest the Lannisters as long as he didn't sit the iron throne himself.

Renly's objections to Stannis are, "we all know what Stannis is", and "he inspires no love or loyalty". This is not a good foundation to declare oneself the superior ruler, especially when one has no experience ruling or commanding anything.

Renly pointed out the faults in Stannis's personality that didn't make him fit to be king.

Stannis doesn't have to provide reasons because he has proven himself. He smashed the Iron fleets during the Greyjoy rebellion and would have put an end to the Targaryen line if [book spoiler? I don't remember] hadn't helped smuggle Dani and Viserys out of dragonstone. He is regarded as hard but fair by the people who know him or of him--hell, even the guy who has four less fingertips thinks he's a good man.

Knowing how to conquer doesn't mean you're fit to rule, and about Stannis being a good man, it wasn't shoun at all, only told, what was shoun was him executing many of his people for their religions.

Rumors that happen to be true, and Renly and Stannis both know this. Fighting for power doesn't enter into it where Stannis is concerned. He's going to do his duty, in this case to the realm, and want doesn't enter into it.

At the time there wasn't anything to prove the genes, Jofrey being blonde isn't concrete proof that he isn't Robert's son.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Renly committed treason. Stannis was in his right to execute him.

 

[Lord]

Renly committed treason. Stannis was in his right to execute him.

Robert commited treason to get the throne, Jaime is right now the king, anything against him is treason, Stannis has no right to talk about treason.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Robert commited treason to get the throne, Jaime is right now the king, anything against him is treason, Stannis has no right to talk about treason.

Mad King forced his people's hand.

Jaime has never been king.

Stannis has every right to talk about treason. The Iron Throne is his by right.

 

[The Navigator]

Ned told him he didn't want help and Renly did as Ned said, don't see how that's trickery.

When did I say it was? The point was that Renly was putting the good of the realm second to his own ambitions.

then tag it, either way we're talking about wht has happened up until now, and Stannis hasn't proved to be a very good "king" to his people.

According to who? Everyone that speaks of him besides Renly says he's a hard but just man. He's not warm and cuddly, but he's not despised (except by Renly)

You trust Littlefinger? He's not somebody easy to manipulate.

I trust Littlefinger's going to look after his own neck, and when someone like Cersei can show him whose boss, yes Renly could absolutely have played along and then killed Littlefinger later.

Renly was blocking the food suply to king's landing and waiting for the right moment while the Lannisters and Starks wore each other out.

So the guy with the largest army does nothing with it and lets the guy with no interest in the throne get his bannerman killed in senseless fighting so Renly can play mop-up? What a good king.

Renly pointed out the faults in Stannis's personality that didn't make him fit to be king.

You don't have to be well-loved to be a good king.

Knowing how to conquer doesn't mean you're fit to rule, and about Stannis being a good man, it wasn't shoun at all, only told, what was shoun was him executing many of his people for their religions.

...when? I remember him burning a bunch of statues, not people.

And being able to govern a large body of people in a disciplined fashion can lend itself well to rulership outside of conquering.

Robert commited treason to get the throne, Jaime is right now the king, anything against him is treason, Stannis has no right to talk about treason.

Except Robert's reason was "Hey, Aerys is completely insane and murdering everyone," whereas Renly's is, "I don't like my brother." Slightly different scenarios.

 

[HankTheTurtle]

Some have asked us quite nicely to stop discussing book spoilers. Is it really that hard?

Kind of. Talk about the show is bound to lead to talk about what they'll do next. For those that have read the book, it then becomes not about what they do, but about how they do it. That involves book spoilers sometimes. I don't see the problem with that as long as tags are used and it doesn't become an in depth conversation about where the books are headed.

 

[Lord]

When did I say it was? The point was that Renly was putting the good of the realm second to his own ambitions.

Where did that help with his oun ambitions, had he done what you said he should have then he could have become king more easily, he just did what Robert told him to and moved on with his life.

According to who? Everyone that speaks of him besides Renly says he's a hard but just man. He's not warm and cuddly, but he's not despised (except by Renly)

Don't remember anybody saying that escept for the guy who he cutted the fingers (i dont remember his name)

I trust Littlefinger's going to look after his own neck, and when someone like Cersei can show him whose boss, yes Renly could absolutely have played along and then killed Littlefinger later.

Renly's not confident enough to enter into Littlefinger's web.

So the guy with the largest army does nothing with it and lets the guy with no interest in the throne get his bannerman killed in senseless fighting so Renly can play mop-up? What a good king.

huh? what are you talking about? As i said Renly was waiting for both armies to destroy each other, then he would pick what's left, that was a good plan, until Stannis intervened and killed him.

You don't have to be well-loved to be a good king.

But you need to have some charisma and know right from wrong, Renley seemed to love his people, he even granted Brienne her wish, even with women serving as knights being a controversial choice at the time.

...when? I remember him burning a bunch of statues, not people.

Season 3 Episode 1

And being able to govern a large body of people in a disciplined fashion can lend itself well to rulership outside of conquering.

Stannis proved himself to be good in battle, however Renly has proved himself to be good for his people and make people trust and follow him. While Stannis was trying to turn himself into a king by following a random witch, Renly was spending some time with the people and creating events in order to entertain them.

Except Robert's reason was "Hey, Aerys is completely insane and murdering everyone," whereas Renly's is, "I don't like my brother." Slightly different scenarios.

And "i will be a better king than my brother" and "people like me more", why? because while Stannis is waging wars his younger brother is being a king. Some people deserve to lead and others to follow, Stannis is the follow type, which is made obvious with his obsession for the "Law" and having the red witch telling him what to do.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Kind of. Talk about the show is bound to lead to talk about what they'll do next. For those that have read the book, it then becomes not about what they do, but about how they do it. That involves book spoilers sometimes. I don't see the problem with that as long as tags are used and it doesn't become an in depth conversation about where the books ate headed.

Ok, well the mods have already said in the past to stop it. If you want to talk about the books they want you to use the thread about the books.

 

[The Navigator]

Where did that help with his oun ambitions, had he done what you said he should have then he could have become king more easily, he just did what Robert told him to and moved on with his life.

Except that Ned would be alive to oppose him, and I doubt Renly's going to behead Ned Stark.

quote]Don't remember anybody saying that escept for the guy who he cutted the fingers (i dont remember his name)[/quote]

It doesn't get much play in the show, but Ned Stark even spoke well of the man. At Blackwater, Cersei even mentions he's too righteous to seduce or dissuade.

Renly's not confident enough to enter into Littlefinger's web.

Or battle, apparently.

huh? what are you talking about? As i said Renly was waiting for both armies to destroy each other, then he would pick what's left, that was a good plan, until Stannis intervened and killed him.

A great plan that involves letting a smaller fighting force do all the work while Renly parties on the sidelines. That's not a good leadership quality. And it's incredibly disrespectful to the man he basically let die to let his son's army batter itself into exhaustion while he does nothing.

But you need to have some charisma and know right from wrong, Renley seemed to love his people, he even granted Brienne her wish, even with women serving as knights being a controversial choice at the time.

You don't need charisma, you need respect and loyalty, which Stannis has (though he doesn't start out with much). He utters the most non-inspirational one-line speech at Blackwater and gets a rousing response from the men.

Season 3 Episode 1

I'd have to watch it again. Sounds like more of a melisandre thing than a Stannis thing (which I agree he is being manipulated by her and needs to ditch the witch).

Stannis proved himself to be good in battle, however Renly has proved himself to be good for his people and make people trust and follow him. While Stannis was trying to turn himself into a king by following a random witch, Renly was spending some time with the people and creating events in order to entertain them.

...while there was a war raging that desperately needed his active assistance. Which would make him not good for his people in the long term. He's very marketable, but not much in the way of leadership ability (or at least, none that is shown).

And "i will be a better king than my brother" and "people like me more", why? because while Stannis is waging wars his younger brother is being a king. Some people deserve to lead and others to follow, Stannis is the follow type, which is made obvious with his obsession for the "Law" and having the red witch telling him what to do.

Stannis is waging a war that needs to be fought. The Lannisters seized power in an attempt to prevent an incestuous conspiracy from becoming public. Renly is sitting out the biggest event since Robert's rebellion, how is that good for anyone? Clogging supply lines to King's Landing, that's the best you can do with your superior forces? That's "being a king"?

 

[Roose Bolton]

Stannis ruled DragonStone, the ancestral seat of House Targaryen and the centre of their loyalists for sixteen years. That's not something just anyone could do, that takes more than just skill at battle.

 

[mr. peasant]

Stannis ruled DragonStone, the ancestral seat of House Targaryen and the centre of their loyalists for sixteen years. That's not something just anyone could do, that takes more than just skill at battle.

Well, rule by force and rule by a willing public are two entirely different things. Browbeating a local population into accepting one's rule is slightly different than getting seven kingdoms to jointly bend the knee.

Which raises merit in Renly's argument against Stannis' rule. Especially in light of his conversion to a new religion. As such, if Stannis has neither the adoration/approval of the people with influence nor the soldiers to enforce his will - coupled with his spreading of a new, foreign religion that completely rejects and defiles the current one - that's likely to further fan the flames of rebellion rather than unity.

As such, of the two brothers, Renly actually does make the better candidate. At least he appreciates the value of diplomacy and unlike Stannis, would likely opt for a peaceful resolution than a bloody one if given the chance.

 

[DACrowe]

Renly committed treason. Stannis was in his right to execute him.

Bah. Robert, Ned AND Stannis committed treason when they rebelled against the Mad Targaryen King. Robb is committing treason by attempting to secede. Balon is committing double treason. If Dany ever returns to Westeros, whoever she crosses paths with will accuse her of being a usurper.

There is no such thing as divine right for kings and the show highlights that it is all about power. Renly acquired more power than Stannis because he played politics far better and in some ways is a better tactician (though it is arguable). Stannis was beaten and had to let Melisandre do all the work for him. And if you take the show's version of events into account, he did it by committing adultery. Or one could argue he cheated at the game.

Stannis is really no better than Renly. He is brittle and easily manipulated, just as the Master of Arms at Winterfell told Jon Snow long ago. That is why he will always find himself in dire straits, even when he has fleeting moments of victory. It will happen again.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Bah. Robert, Ned AND Stannis committed treason when they rebelled against the Mad Targaryen King. Robb is committing treason by attempting to secede. Balon is committing double treason. If Dany ever returns to Westeros, whoever she crosses paths with will accuse her of being a usurper.

There is no such thing as divine right for kings and the show highlights that it is all about power. Renly acquired more power than Stannis because he played politics far better and in some ways is a better tactician (though it is arguable). Stannis was beaten and had to let Melisandre do all the work for him. And if you take the show's version of events into account, he did it by committing adultery. Or one could argue he cheated at the game.

Stannis is really no better than Renly. He is brittle and easily manipulated, just as the Master of Arms at Winterfell told Jon Snow long ago. That is why he will always find himself in dire straits, even when he has fleeting moments of victory. It will happen again.

It isn't treason when someone is committing mass murder just because they can.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Has anyone actually read the books the show is based on? If so how accurate have they been at adapting the novels?

 

[mr. peasant]

It isn't treason when someone is committing mass murder just because they can.

Actually, it still is. The Seven Kingdoms exercise absolute monarchy. Meaning, the king can pretty much do whatever he pleases. He's completely within his rights to commit mass murder of his people for kicks and giggles. It might be understandable why people would start to rebel. However, it is still treason as defined by the law.

 

[The Navigator]

Has anyone actually read the books the show is based on? If so how accurate have they been at adapting the novels?

Pretty faithful, especially season 1.

 

[mr. peasant]

Pretty faithful, especially season 1.

Agreed. I think one of the biggest changes to the show is the addition of Ros; in the place of a random string of prostitutes. Hence why in the show, she winds up being the most abused person in all of Westeros.

 

[Bruce Malone]

I still feel the idea of arguing who is the "rightful ruler" is pointless. The whole GoT world operates on a right makes right scenario.

The only reason the 7 kingdoms even exist as one entity is due to the fact of the targarean invasion and conquering that forcefully united 7 separate kingdoms. The only reason King Robert became king is because he was the one who decided to sit on the throne (ned could have but didn't).

I think the 2nd season made it obvious that the only "rightful ruler" is the one who has the most power at the time.

ps. throw me in the renly camp as to who would have arguably made the best ruler.

 

[DawnWarrior]

Couple quick questions:
1) Who's looking after Casterly Rock? All the Lanisters are at King's Landing except Jaime who's on the road. Bran was in charge of looking after Winterfell while the grown-ups were at war. Doesn't somebody need to look after the Lannisters' home base?
2) After getting out of Haranhall, where are Arya and company headed? Looking for Robb? Back to WF to find Bran? Back to KL to rescue Sansa?

 

[The Navigator]

Couple quick questions:
1) Who's looking after Casterly Rock? All the Lanisters are at King's Landing except Jaime who's on the road. Bran was in charge of looking after Winterfell while the grown-ups were at war. Doesn't somebody need to look after the Lannisters' home base?
2) After getting out of Haranhall, where are Arya and company headed? Looking for Robb? Back to WF to find Bran? Back to KL to rescue Sansa?

1. Probably some lesser liege lord that Tywin trusts. Possibly Kevan Lannister? I don't remember him in s2 but that's not indicative.
2. Winterfell.