Gotham Gotham Season 2, Episode 3 "The Last Laugh"

[Venomfan]

And having a precursor to the Joker in Jerome doesn't make the Joker a copycat. Jerome just came up with an 'idea', the Joker is the one who is going to bring that idea to fruition. So in this version instead of a copycat, think of Joker as the successor, who inherits the legacy of chaos started by Jerome... and makes it more then Jerome or anybody else ever could have done.

The only difference between this character and the Joker is the appearance. If Jerome was painted white with green hair, nobody would go around saying "that guy isn't really the Joker."

 

[ThePhantasm]

Um... no.

 

[Silly Cat]

The only difference between this character and the Joker is the appearance. If Jerome was painted white with green hair, nobody would go around saying "that guy isn't really the Joker."

Jerome was missing more then just the clown motif...he was missing Batman.

Joker is not Joker without Batman to define him, everything he does goes back to the Bat, otherwise he would be just a psycho in a clown getup.

Just like Batman is not Batman without his obsession for fighting crime.

Hence why Joker cannot truly exist until Batman does, and Batman can't exist until his parents are murdered, etc. So while his personality may have been like the Joker, in the end Jerome was just a psycho with a sense of humor.

 

[ALittlePush]

Jerome was missing more then just the clown motif...he was missing Batman.

Joker is not Joker without Batman to define him, everything he does goes back to the Bat, otherwise he would be just a psycho in a clown getup.

Just like Batman is not Batman without his obsession for fighting crime.

Hence why Joker cannot truly exist until Batman does, and Batman can't exist until his parents are murdered, etc. So while his personality may have been like the Joker, in the end Jerome was just a psycho with a sense of humor.

I disagree.

We're never going to see a fully fledged Batman on this show. We're not going to see any fully fledged villains on this show. This show is supposed to be about the characters that we know and love before they became the characters we know and love.

Jerome was so clearly the pre-Joker Joker. The fact that him and Bruce interacted now would have added an interesting dynamic down the line when they meet again as Batman and the Joker and not have an idea who each other actually is.

You say Joker can not exist without Batman, but by the same token Batman can't exist without Joker. In fact, Jerome's theatricality could've been what made Gotham's Bruce to go more theatrical in the creation of Batman. Joker and Batman's history would be entwined. Jerome caused Bruce to create Batman, Batman caused Jerome to become the fully fledged Joker.

 

[Venomfan]

Jerome was missing more then just the clown motif...he was missing Batman.

Joker is not Joker without Batman to define him, everything he does goes back to the Bat, otherwise he would be just a psycho in a clown getup.

Just like Batman is not Batman without his obsession for fighting crime.

Hence why Joker cannot truly exist until Batman does, and Batman can't exist until his parents are murdered, etc. So while his personality may have been like the Joker, in the end Jerome was just a psycho with a sense of humor.

so your saying if a character who acted just like Jerome and was wearing the clown make up appeared in the show, you wouldn't think it was the Joker?

 

[Silly Cat]

so your saying if a character who acted just like Jerome and was wearing the clown make up appeared in the show, you wouldn't think it was the Joker?

I was just saying there is more to the Joker then the clown getup. That's a part, but not the whole of who he is. Just like there is more to Batman then the fact that he dresses like a bat.

That's all.

 

[Silly Cat]

We're never going to see a fully fledged Batman on this show. We're not going to see any fully fledged villains on this show. This show is supposed to be about the characters that we know and love before they became the characters we know and love.

You don't know that, if the show lasts long enough they could very well give us the full fledged characters for a few episodes.

Just because the creators said that the initial idea is to end it with Bruce putting on the cowl, things can change, people can change their minds, etc. People were so certain Jerome was the Joker and then they pulled the rug out from under us...they can go in a million different directions with this show and these characters if they want to.

Jerome was so clearly the pre-Joker Joker. The fact that him and Bruce interacted now would have added an interesting dynamic down the line when they meet again as Batman and the Joker and not have an idea who each other actually is.

Well, turns out he wasn't...unless they do another twist and bring him back, otherwise I don't think we will be seeing Jerome again.

You say Joker can not exist without Batman, but by the same token Batman can't exist without Joker. In fact, Jerome's theatricality could've been what made Gotham's Bruce to go more theatrical in the creation of Batman. Joker and Batman's history would be entwined. Jerome caused Bruce to create Batman, Batman caused Jerome to become the fully fledged Joker.

Batman CAN exist without Joker, if Joker dies Bruce would still continue to fight crime. True he is better with the Joker (their battles are always awesome) but he doesn't need him.

The Joker on the other hand NEEDS Batman, everything he does is to get at Batman. Heck in most versions Batman is even the cause of his transformation into the Joker (Red Hood etc). If Batman dies, then the Joker would lose his reason for being (heck he went catatonic when Bruce retired in The Dark Knight Returns) because he would have no one to play off of anymore.

That is the difference.

I wish they wouldn't have killed off Jerome too...but it seems they wanted to go with the idea that he 'inspired' the Joker, and was the first seed planted that would later erupt into a garden of chaos. So I'm fine with that.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Frodo]

At this point i'm pretty skeptical that these writers have real long term plans for how the show will play out in the long run or how any of these characters will play out long term. They seem to be taking it one day at a time, and if something doesn't work they go in a radically different direction, or chuck it.

In other words ,I don't think the 'cake is baked" so to speak, the way Flash and Arrow are in terms of really mapping storylines and characters out , and knowing where they want to be from beginning to end of a season.

I'm not all that convinced they would have killed off the Jerome character had the actor not gotten another gig, and I'm not that confident that Fish Mooney wouldn't still be on the show had her character been really popular.

 

[ALittlePush]

You don't know that, if the show lasts long enough they could very well give us the full fledged characters for a few episodes.

Just because the creators said that the initial idea is to end it with Bruce putting on the cowl, things can change, people can change their minds, etc. People were so certain Jerome was the Joker and then they pulled the rug out from under us...they can go in a million different directions with this show and these characters if they want to.

I very much doubt we will see Bruce put on the cowl. He's 12/13 now. Even if each subsequent season had a one year time jump from the season before, and assuming Bruce becomes Batman at 18, we'd be looking at season 6 at the earliest. Since season 2 is only set a month after season 1, that wait is going to be even longer. Teenage Batman is a remote possibility but logically Alfred wouldn't allow Bruce to do that.

I don't think the show will make it to season 4, let alone season 6, but I could be wrong.

Well, turns out he wasn't...unless they do another twist and bring him back, otherwise I don't think we will be seeing Jerome again.

Well the show has killed off Maroni BEFORE he threw the acid in Harvey dent's face to make him Two Face, they've killed off Essen, turned Barbara crazy, this show is not afraid to go in its own direction.

Killing off Jerome was a bad decision. I think the writers have shot themselves in the foot, and that decision will come back and bite them in the arse.

At this point i'm pretty skeptical that these writers have real long term plans for how the show will play out in the long run or how any of these characters will play out long term. They seem to be taking it one day at a time, and if something doesn't work they go in a radically different direction, or chuck it.

In other words ,I don't think the 'cake is baked" so to speak, the way Flash and Arrow are in terms of really mapping storylines and characters out , and knowing where they want to be from beginning to end of a season.

I agree.

I'm not all that convinced they would have killed off the Jerome character had the actor not gotten another gig, and I'm not that confident that Fish Mooney wouldn't still be on the show had her character been really popular.

Jerome's actor had the Shameless gig before Gotham so I don't think that was the reason. I get that they couldn't have Jerome running loose around Gotham all season, not only because of the actor having other commitments, but that it would make Gordon and the GCPD look incompetent. However, they could've just shipped him back to Arkham so that the character is still available in the future and if they need to boost ratings, but off-screen so that they could explore other characters.

 

[Taarna]

ALittlePush I very much doubt we will see Bruce put on the cowl. He's 12/13 now. Even if each subsequent season had a one year time jump from the season before, and assuming Bruce becomes Batman at 18, we'd be looking at season 6 at the earliest. Since season 2 is only set a month after season 1, that wait is going to be even longer. Teenage Batman is a remote possibility but logically Alfred wouldn't allow Bruce to do that.

I don't think the show will make it to season 4, let alone season 6, but I could be wrong.

I would say Bruce is about 14-15 right now. With ratings down everywhere ( Except for football ), Gotham is sailing alone just fine. I see a season 3 for sure.

I would not rule out a flash forward with Batman.

Jerome's actor had the Shameless gig before Gotham so I don't think that was the reason. I get that they couldn't have Jerome running loose around Gotham all season, not only because of the actor having other commitments, but that it would make Gordon and the GCPD look incompetent. However, they could've just shipped him back to Arkham so that the character is still available in the future and if they need to boost ratings, but off-screen so that they could explore other characters.

You are soooo right. Send him back to Arkham. I have hope that Jerome is still alive. The writers and producers may have X'd a golden goose. No actor that plays the joker is going to be better.

# Free the Riddler

 

[Gu3ree]

So is the Joker...or just Jerome really dead? Obviously it seemed there'd be some point in his father's line reheard at the end of the episode...oh and the laughing gas. Or that might mean, someone else will mentor this guy and eventually become the Joker. Wouldn't like that idea though. He was pretty close to the Joker.

Looks like in the end, this character was just an experiment, the maybe-could be Joker, so without using his official name or ever referring to him as the Joker then they just call him Jerome.

 

[MidnightJoker]

I feel that the writers and producers are just toying with the audience. I thought the Jerome character was great. Was he the Joker? In my eyes he sure looked it, the pale makeup, the laugh the obvious insanity as well as the flashes of Nicholson and Ledger.


However I am of the school that the Joker should NOT have a back story. I thought the idea of Jack Napier killing Thomas and Martha Wayne in 89 was preposterous. Joe Chill killed the Waynes, end of story.



I am not a big fan of messing with the original stores but I do understand that every writer and/or producer wants to put his spin on a story. (Maybe someone will come along and do a version of King Lear where Lear, Goneril, Regan and Cordelia all live at the end!)


I loved Nolan’s Joker, how he came out of nowhere and we had no idea who he was. Gordon’s speech in TDK after Ledger was captured, about him having no identification and all his clothes being designer was a nice touch.


The writers teased us last season as well with the Red Hood gang. Once again in my Batman world, the Joker was originally the Red Hood, he falls into a vat of chemicals and gets the green hair pale white skin and the red lips. He is also a killer that thinks nothing of wiping out an entire family on a whim.


It’s my feeling we will be seeing more would be “Jokers” throughout the series. The producers are going to continue to mess with us. We all know already who the Riddler and Penguin are, but the Joker is and always will be Batman’s greatest foe, he has to be done right, in the meantime it will be a guessing game. Although, I think it is going to be really hard to top Cameron Monaghan’s performance.


My feeling is that Jerome is dead but they bring back the actor to play the Joker complete with the white makeup red lips and green hair somewhere down the road. Crazy concept but hey it’s television it could happen.


And finally, I have been playing around with the letters to “Jerome Velaska” and I have come up with the anagrams: “Me a Joker Slave” or “Me a Joker Salve” A salve is described as an ointment put on the skin to soothe pain. Obviously Jerome was doing the opposite and causing pain. According to Wiki: The name (salve) comes from archaic belief that an irritant can "draw out" evil humors. Take that as you will.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I have been playing around with the letters to “Jerome Velaska” and I have come up with the anagrams: “Me a Joker Slave” or “Me a Joker Salve” A salve is described as an ointment put on the skin to soothe pain. Obviously Jerome was doing the opposite and causing pain. According to Wiki: The name (salve) comes from archaic belief that an irritant can "draw out" evil humors. Take that as you will.

 

[Frodo]

I'm a fan of the no Joker origin thing as well, but I'm more concerned about what works for each particular version not for what's most true to the version of the comics I prefer. I was fine with Napier version in B89, the Gangster background in MOTP, and the old Red Hood version from the 1950s.

For me , it depends on what's best for the particular adaptation at hand and what Joker is best for the adaptation.

Now I think the question of whether Jerome should have been the Joker is different from whether the writers should kill off a compelling character when their show seems to lack them. I felt the greater mistake is getting rid of the character more than him not being the Joker.

Still ,If the plan is to keep teasing who the Joker will be ,I think they should chuck the whole "who is the Joker" stuff . Given that the show doesn't seem to operate on long term plans anyway, trying to tease out who will be the joker in 20 years is pointless unless they plan on doing a time jump to a point in which we actually see who becomes Joker.

If the plan is to show which figures in Gotham influence the Joker but they don't show who the Joker is before the change, then you're basically only showing who proceeded him without showing him , in which case, the non fanboys out there could care less. If the plan is to only tease then that's lame to because most non fans at a certain point will tire of it. I say just shelve the idea and focus on the characters and villains they actually commit to showing and the development of those characters.

 

[ALittlePush]

Now I think the question of whether Jerome should have been the Joker is different from whether the writers should kill off a compelling character when their show seems to lack them. I felt the greater mistake is getting rid of the character more than him not being the Joker.

I agree. I don't think they needed to prove whether or not Jerome was the Joker, they could've left that up to audience interpretation. but as you said, killing off a compelling and engaging character such as Jerome is the greater mistake.

Still ,If the plan is to keep teasing who the Joker will be ,I think they should chuck the whole "who is the Joker" stuff . Given that the show doesn't seem to operate on long term plans anyway, trying to tease out who will be the joker in 20 years is pointless unless they plan on doing a time jump to a point in which we actually see who becomes Joker.

I agree.

If the plan is to show which figures in Gotham influence the Joker but they don't show who the Joker is before the change, then you're basically only showing who proceeded him without showing him , in which case, the non fanboys out there could care less. If the plan is to only tease then that's lame to because most non fans at a certain point will tire of it. I say just shelve the idea and focus on the characters and villains they actually commit to showing and the development of those characters.

I agree. I think they should stop teasing the Joker with people "inspiring" him because otherwise it takes away Joker's originality, he's just stealing traits and behaviour from other people.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I disagree.

We're never going to see a fully fledged Batman on this show. We're not going to see any fully fledged villains on this show. This show is supposed to be about the characters that we know and love before they became the characters we know and love.

Jerome was so clearly the pre-Joker Joker. The fact that him and Bruce interacted now would have added an interesting dynamic down the line when they meet again as Batman and the Joker and not have an idea who each other actually is.

You say Joker can not exist without Batman, but by the same token Batman can't exist without Joker. In fact, Jerome's theatricality could've been what made Gotham's Bruce to go more theatrical in the creation of Batman. Joker and Batman's history would be entwined. Jerome caused Bruce to create Batman, Batman caused Jerome to become the fully fledged Joker.

Nope. The only incarnation of Batman that can't exist withour the Joker is Keaton's Batman. The Joker on the other hand, in all incarnations, never fully becomes the Joker until he meets Batman. Batman existed before he meets the clown prince.

 

[ALittlePush]

Nope. The only incarnation of Batman that can't exist withour the Joker is Keaton's Batman. The Joker on the other hand, in all incarnations, never fully becomes the Joker until he meets Batman. Batman existed before he meets the clown prince.

Yet wouldn't the clown prince have existed before he met Batman? The Joker was the Joker when he met Batman. He didn't meet Batman then go "Oh I'm going to dress up as a clown from now on" He already was.

 

[Manofplastic]

Im gonna go with the obvious here and point towards the Nolan Joker.
Yeah, i know. surprise,surprise.

It would fit though, as the Jerome Joker was a 100% clear Ledger-style joker.
And i must say, Cameron Monaghan nailed the role.
Yeah, it was quite a tad overboard at times, but can't really blame the guy for it, that's the series.

Matter of fact the entire series stink. I mean come on. Bruceboy is untolerable. Barbara a pyschopath? There's no room there honestly how jim gordon can ever get back together with her and be a happy family. I mean come on! All along, they've ruined the Jim Gordon character, too.

And Loeb already resigned? Completely destroying the 'canon' batman pillars.

So it's hardly a surprise that the Joker gets treated similar. Uncanon.
But, i must admit, i kinda like the way it was portrayed.
I feel Cameron Monaghan is actually outperforming the role given to him.
To be honest, he's portraying a Joker bigger than that of the series. Which, in itself, kinda is Ledger-legacyish.

I think Cameron Monaghan did a wonderfull and stellar job - especially with the general 'crap' that is Gotham's storyline. His facial features fit the job, and his acting is nail on - even if it's a tad overdramatic.

Yes, the portrayal is wayy to early, but that's with everything in Gotham so, allright.

And yes, he was killed off too early, but i seriously doubt there's going to be a decent Batman in this series ever.

I agree though that the Joker only really became the ultimate villain thanks to the precense of Batman. But Jerome wasn't the joker yet. He was Jerome.

I do believe he really is terminated for the rest of the series. They kinda left an opening for a 'legacy' - which was totally moronic btw, but well, that's the level of quality in Gotham.

Perhaps there is room for a 'revival'. If you ask me, being on that counter there, he was dead as can be. Still, in real life, people have been pronounced dead yet maintain a unreadable heartbeat and suddenly 'waking up'. So it's not an impossibility for Jerome to wake up, especially with Nygma around.

But where to go from there? How is Jerome gonna lay low? He's not the character to lay low. He's grown too 'mighty' to lay low. And where is he gonna fled? outside of Gotham? nah. They could, offcourse, put him off in Arkham but that kinda ruins the character. It kinda did already, but the Joker's strenght is that he is a complete mistery. Without identity.
Here, he is Jerome Valasky. Not without identity.

Long story short, it's a mess.

Apart from that, we'll have to take the series as indepentent. As an 'alternative' story. No batman. Just Gotham. Crazy. If you completely do away with any Batman portrayal, if you don't mind the comics, than Gotham, as a series, is ok.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that.

But, kudos to Cameron Monaghan. For real. that was genuinly impressive.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Yet wouldn't the clown prince have existed before he met Batman? The Joker was the Joker when he met Batman. He didn't meet Batman then go "Oh I'm going to dress up as a clown from now on" He already was.

That's actually exactly what happened. Sure, the seeds were already planted to make an unhinged individual (what they were is unknown) but it wasn't until he saw Batman and was dropped into those chemicals that he decided to don the clown getup and begin his obsession with Bats.

Batman on the other hand, was created through the death of his parents and his own subsequent choices. He was fully formed when he met the Joker. Mr. J didn't help create him at all.

 

[ALittlePush]

That's actually exactly what happened. Sure, the seeds were already planted to make an unhinged individual (what they were is unknown) but it wasn't until he saw Batman and was dropped into those chemicals that he decided to don the clown getup and begin his obsession with Bats.

Batman on the other hand, was created through the death of his parents and his own subsequent choices. He was fully formed when he met the Joker. Mr. J didn't help create him at all.

I did not know that. Did Batman actually meet the pre-clown Joker? If so, when Joker came back all clowned up, why didn't Batman go "I remember you, I dropped you in the vat of acid!"

 

[Slade W]

I did not know that. Did Batman actually meet the pre-clown Joker? If so, when Joker came back all clowned up, why didn't Batman go "I remember you, I dropped you in the vat of acid!"

That depends on the writer, story and continuity. Generally the answer is no, Batman doesn't meet the pre-clown Joker. However, in the story Zero Year which is set in the new 52, Bruce before he has fully become Batman comes across the man who would go on to become the Joker. He is the leader of the Red Hood gang and they are promoting chaos around Gotham by causing random destruction. It still doesn't show Jokers face because he is wearing a mask though.

 

[ALittlePush]

However, in the story Zero Year which is set in the new 52, Bruce before he has fully become Batman comes across the man who would go on to become the Joker.

That kind of sounds like the last episode where Jerome and Bruce interacted before either of them became their counterparts.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I did not know that. Did Batman actually meet the pre-clown Joker? If so, when Joker came back all clowned up, why didn't Batman go "I remember you, I dropped you in the vat of acid!"

In most canon, the Joker was the Red Hood, and he was wearing a big mask, so Bats didn't know they were the same person until the Joker told him so. Who the Joker was before he got dumped in the acid, and how he came to be under the Red Hood has always been shrouded in mystery. There have been some options presented, but they're almost always under the pretense of being an "option" of what happened, since it's usually inferred that the Joker himself no longer remembers who he was due to his unbalanced mind.

Though the one constant is that Joker never did anything to help Bruce turn to Batman, excluding the 89 film, which made him the man who killed the Waynes.

If you want more info on it, I would recommend reading The Killing Joke, or The Man Who Laughs. Both great classic Joker tales.

 

[Lamashtar]

It would have been perfect if they had cut the episode at Jerome's death. Any hint of a "Joker virus" would have been creepy after that. By throwing in the "everyone is Joker" montage, they made it overdone in its very first appearance. I no longer care "who is Joker."

Ugh. I prefer only superhero tv and movies, but I'm starting to wonder whats the point in watching Gotham. Its nothing like Gotham Central, and it certainly isn't Batman.