Gotham Gotham Season 1, Episode 4 "Arkham" General Discussion

[Donnie Darko]

Makenzie Leigh.

Hot damn.

 

[Mikelus]

Is a pity, but this show is just a guilty pleasure for me so far, the writing is just too mediocre and dumb despite the potential:

AV Club review:

This week’s villain doesn’t have a silly gimmick like the ’50s-styled child snatchers and The Balloonman, he just uses a retractable metal spear to kill his targets. His first victim is a councilman that is stupid enough to take a strange device from a strange man in a parking lot and put it up to his eye, and his second victim is a man who doesn’t realize you should use the stairs instead of waiting for the elevators when being chased by a killer. Elected officials in Gotham City aren’t especially smart, so it’s not hard to pick them off one by one, even when they have police protection like the mayor does.

After two weeks of heavily exaggerated villains, it’s refreshing to see a more subdued antagonistic that has a threatening presence without pushing too hard. By taking a less aggressive approach, actor Hakeem Kae-Kazim makes assassin Gladwell a surprisingly captivating villain, so it’s unfortunate that he’s shot dead by Gordon and Bullock when he comes after the mayor. The attack on the mayor ultimately leads to a compromise on the Arkham plan, and it’s laughable in its awfulness. Arkham will have low-income housing and the asylum will be retrofitted to fit modern standards, but the district will also contain a waste disposal site so that Gotham’s underprivileged citizens will be living in a dump. To make the decision even more hilarious, Maroni delights in the compromise by grabbing a piece of steak with his bare hands and biting into it, transitioning from a stereotypical Italian mob boss to a grotesque caricature.

The character has potential, but it’s not fully explored. Instead, Oswald is being rushed through a story that puts him a position of power in Maroni’s crew, which is confusing for a number of reasons. The big one is that everyone thinks that Oswald was killed, so he decides to lay low by going right back to what he was doing before, this time with a different boss and a different GCPD contact. A big part of Oswald’s character is that he’s an outcast that stands out from the crowd because of his personality and appearance, and yet he’s the character that is put in an undercover position. He doesn’t even try to be inconspicuous about eavesdropping on Maroni while washing dishes, and immediately after Oswald’s boss yells at him for not minding his own business, he gets right back to the staring and the listening.

In order to fast track his way into Maroni’s good graces, Oswald sets up a robbery to make himself look like a hero when he saves a bag of Maroni’s money. Because the restaurant manager was killed in the stick-up, Maroni offers the position to the dishwasher, which is hilarious because Oswald has absolutely no qualifications for restaurant management beyond being able to survive a robbery that he staged himself. This show is making things too easy for the character, and there’s no sense that Oswald is in danger as he starts to gain more power for himself by playing with fire.

http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/gotham-arkham-210451

Maybe it will get better, time will tell.

 

[The Guard]

Thought this was a fantastic episode. Solid throughout, firing on all cylinders, and developing story threads nicely.

Ben McKenzie is killing it in this show. His Jim Gordon is wonderfully subtle much of the time, and he and Logue make a great onscreen duo as Gordon and Bullock.

They finally arrived at the meat of the Gordons’ issues. They’re going to have the strained marriage with trust issues on both sides, which is pretty much par
for the course for Gordon as a character.

I absolutely loved Oswald’s role in things. Love this guy. He’s so duplicitous. You never know when he’s actually scared for his life and when he’s faking. I love watching him work.

In a few scenes, GOTHAM has already presented a more credible and interesting version of the mob and its operations than the previous Batman films did. In THE DARK KNIGHT, they’re worried about their money. In GOTHAM, we’ve got an assassin who sets people on fire to send a message to the opposition and RESTAURANT MURDERS. Brutal, visceral stuff, and very well executed for television. An actual gang war brewing, and its about time. Falcone was noticeably absent, but his presence is still very much felt.

In a few sentences, GOTHAM managed to depict and develop Thomas and Martha Wayne into people who truly care for the people of their city in a social. And the show does it through not just exposition from the Mayor, but from Alfred and Bruce, who wants to see their legacy honored and is willing to fight to have this happen. Fantastic stuff.

Thought it was interesting that there was a nod to “Arkham City” in this episode. And I really got a kick out of the “Arkham compromise”. Gotham’s poor living near a landfill and the old, tainted asylum open for business. Lots of story potential there.

 

[The Guard]

Every time they show Bruce, it's like they're saying "OMG, Batman's coming one day". It's also crazy how this kid lives in his living room, and doesn't seem to be going to school or anything. Just doing pre-Batman stuff you know.

This is pretty classic Bruce Wayne after the murder of his parents. He doesn't have a normal life. He won't allow himself to.

Gordon remains bland. He & Bruce need to figure out how to have a different conversation. It's only so many times I can here a variation of Gotham being capable of being saved.

I didn't realize they had been discussing city politics and the Wayne legacy in previous episodes.

 

[Kane52630]

That first "death" by the Balloon-Man was the goofiest thing i'd seen since Batman and Robin.

Do you only watch the movies? because I can give you a long list of things that are as "goofy" as that from the animated shows to the video games to even the comics.

 

[shauner111]

Do you only watch the movies? because I can give you a long list of things that are as "goofy" as that from the animated shows to the video games to even the comics.

I was talking about live-action. Quite frankly, i dont want moments that seem ordinary in a video game, comic or cartoon to be translated into live-action. Take main points from those mediums for inspiration, but do it in a way where the real life actors don't feel like they're straight out of a cartoon or like somebody said GTA.

Even this episode, which i praised for the most part, had some moments where i was like really? Maroni and his steak (may as well twirl his mustache), the woman running out of the room yelling about the box of paperclips (an attempt at comic relief which did nothing for me). But this episode was more up my alley with the amount of humor they had, delivery, no kid villains, no 60s bad guys.

Right from the start i wanted this whole show to be about Gordon taking down the mob, with everything else either not appearing at all, or kept in the backround. I wanted the tone to feel more like a Frank Miller Year One, Nolan bat-film, and maybe with the odd hokey moment between a cop or mobster that you would get in Batman 89 or B:TAS. But nothing straight from the 60s, 90s live-action sequels or too much of the animated series/comics. "Arkham" satisfied me now that im used to these main characters (I did my nitpicking of Jada Smith but im used to her now).

 

[batbax]

Is a pity, but this show is just a guilty pleasure for me so far, the writing is just too mediocre and dumb despite the potential:



Maybe it will get better, time will tell.

Agreed. I thought this was clearly the best episode but that really isn't saying much. There's just too much dragging it down. Like everytime theres a decent scene that pulls you in they immediately switch gears and have you totally throwing your hands up exasperated. It's a frustrating show for me to watch in this regard. Like you it's sort of just a guilty pleasure at this time I can't really take it seriously.

 

[batbax]

And I'd hope the mob is more fleshed out in this show than in a movie, considering they have much more time to work with. Lets face it in tdk you had the joker arch and Harvey dent along w Bruce's. not really a valid comparison if you're trying to use that as a boon to this show. And I'm not real sure how credible and visceral they are. Falcone is really the only one that I'd put in this category. Rest are typical goons you might see in a comedy about mobsters, including Maroni.

 

[Verick808]

Not as good an episode as I hoped but there was still a lot to like. It was definately better than the last episode. The villain was not as interesting as I had hoped he would be. He seemed to have potential in the earlier minutes of the episode but I somehow lost interest in him as the episode went on. I think introducing Barbara as his Fiance was the wrong move. They just don't have the chemistry I would expect from a couple that had been together long enough to be engaged. Also, the only thing you can really do to a stable relationship in a show like this is tear at it, which seems to be the direction the show is moving. If the show had started off with a single Gordan then they could have shown the relationship build up. Then if they wanted to pick at it later we would be a little more invested. Now thw relationship in its whole is aomething I wish would move off screen.they could still show Barbara, because she's hot, just don't let them interact.

On the positive side this episode laid a lot of ground work. I like where Penguin's character is going and I like that he is going to be dragging Gordan with him. Gordan has been able to stay out of the dirt the last two episodes and his character has been a little less interesting because of it. Don't get me wrong, he was still being well played, there just wasn't much to do with him. The last couple episodes he seemed more annoyed by the corruption of the city. Last night that corruption knocked on his door and offered him a partnership that is definately going to get him in some kind of trouble later on.

I also like the power dynamic they've finally started to reveal to us this episode. Its something Gordan is going to have to learn and navigate as the series goes on and its something Bruce is obviously paying more attention to as well. Im also enjoying the reveal that there is another party setting up the two major powers in the city against each other. I dont think its anyone we've seen yet. Also RIP Penguin's goons. They were oddly likable for a band of thieves and killers.

 

[The Guard]

And I'd hope the mob is more fleshed out in this show than in a movie, considering they have much more time to work with. Lets face it in tdk you had the joker arch and Harvey dent along w Bruce's. not really a valid comparison if you're trying to use that as a boon to this show. And I'm not real sure how credible and visceral they are. Falcone is really the only one that I'd put in this category. Rest are typical goons you might see in a comedy about mobsters, including Maroni.

It's not even the screentime. Even if you just took a few short scenes from this episode, the mob is still portrayed as a more credible threat.

Contentwise, in the films, we were basically TOLD the mob is a threat, with a few moments in BATMAN BEGINS, like Chill's shooting and Bruce's beating, to back that up. The mob was also apparently second fiddle to the League of Shadows there.

Here, we see the mob's impact laid out in grand fashion, in a way that actually threatens the people of Gotham.

Maroni may not yet be the most competent character out there, but there's nothing really comedic about retaliatory assassinations, about shooting up a restaurant full of patrons, setting a man on fire to send a message, etc. They've also explored the political aspects of the mob in relation to Gotham, not just as buying off judges and police officers and keeping people scared, but as a force that actually affects broader city politics and its infrastructure. Again in just a few short scenes.

Compare that to the portrayal of the mob in THE DARK KNIGHT as relative idiots who put all their money in cash and in one location and trusted this to one person. There's really no contest.

 

[The Shape]

I was talking about live-action. Quite frankly, i dont want moments that seem ordinary in a video game, comic or cartoon to be translated into live-action. Take main points from those mediums for inspiration, but do it in a way where the real life actors don't feel like they're straight out of a cartoon or like somebody said GTA.

So, in other words...

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

NOLAN-IZE IT!!!!

 

[Wheels]

I think the tone wouldn't be in question if the show used more stylized elements such as ramping and bullet-time It may be dark and mature due to the violence and and sexual type stuff, but it's pretty much a live-action pulp inspired adult cartoon. Even the dramatic moments come off as over the top. The show lives in this absurdly but some of the visual elements makes the show seem like it should be more real than it is.

 

[EssayM]

I think the tone wouldn't be in question if the show used more stylized elements such as ramping and bullet-time It may be dark and mature due to the violence and and sexual type stuff, but it's pretty much a live-action pulp inspired adult cartoon. Even the dramatic moments come off as over the top. The show lives in this absurdly but some of the visual elements makes the show seem like it should be more real than it is.

Yeah, that sounds about right. I feel like like they're one notch of something away from having the right balance, and the visuals might be it. I don't know if bullet-time or ramping is really the answer, but a bit more color and flash as the show progresses would probably help make the goofier moments less jarring.

 

[batbax]

It's not even the screentime. Even if you just took a few short scenes from this episode, the mob is still portrayed as a more credible threat.

Contentwise, in the films, we were basically TOLD the mob is a threat, with a few moments in BATMAN BEGINS, like Chill's shooting and Bruce's beating, to back that up. The mob was also apparently second fiddle to the League of Shadows there.

Here, we see the mob's impact laid out in grand fashion, in a way that actually threatens the people of Gotham.

Maroni may not yet be the most competent character out there, but there's nothing really comedic about retaliatory assassinations, about shooting up a restaurant full of patrons, setting a man on fire to send a message, etc. They've also explored the political aspects of the mob in relation to Gotham, not just as buying off judges and police officers and keeping people scared, but as a force that actually affects broader city politics and its infrastructure. Again in just a few short scenes.

Compare that to the portrayal of the mob in THE DARK KNIGHT as relative idiots who put all their money in cash and in one location and trusted this to one person. There's really no contest.

Fair enough points but again I maintain In those movies the mob was never meant to be the main focal point nor should they have been. This tv show has the luxury of many episodes to set up the mob as the threat and use the things you describe because of all the episodes it has to work with and because the mob IS the threat at this point. In the movies you had to deal with Bruce becoming batman, Los, joker, Harvey deny etc. sure it woulda been cool to really feel how serious the mob was(although in begins I thought the scene w falcone and Bruce in the bar was pretty legit) but they were just a side story for the most part whereas here it's the main attraction. I just don't think it's really a valid comparison. And as someone said above, ya bodies are being burned and restaurants are being shot up but it comes off as goofy as bad place because of how it's presented. I totally disagree it's coming off as "visceral" to any real degree. Iow i dont really feel the threat level they are trying to convey. and there sure has been a lot of tell but not show in this show, lets not kid ourselves lol theres not much subtlety here.Different strokes and all I guess but IMO it could all be handled way better its mostly in the dialogue and the way the scenes are presented.

 

[croboy82]

I think this was my favorite episode so far.

I really liked the assassin for some reason and I'm sad he is already dead. He was cool and interesting.

I love seing Oswald rising up slowly but steady.

I wonder why Fish asked both girls if the liked man or woman? Had they said woman would they have to seduce Butch? haha

btw, this episode was directed by TJ Scott. I know him from Spartacus cause he directed three of my fave episodes there too (Monsters, Separate Paths and Blood Brothers) and I could tell by the way it was shot, beautiful.

 

[shauner111]

So, in other words...

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

NOLAN-IZE IT!!!!

More like Normalize it!

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Is a pity, but this show is just a guilty pleasure for me so far, the writing is just too mediocre and dumb despite the potential:



Maybe it will get better, time will tell.

You know I agree that this show isn't good but correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that a website that pretends that Agents of Shield is a good show? Yeah it's difficult for me to take them seriously.

 

[The Shape]

You know I agree that this show isn't good but correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that a website that pretends that Agents of Shield is a good show? Yeah it's difficult for me to take them seriously.

It's funny to see some people base their opions of Gotham on articles like that, even going as far as to regurgitate the same quotes.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

But the A.V Club is such an important website, it's how I decide what to watch!

At least I can actually get through a full episode of Gotham. And this week's episode was actually pretty good.

 

[Mikelus]

You know I agree that this show isn't good but correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that a website that pretends that Agents of Shield is a good show? Yeah it's difficult for me to take them seriously.

I don't agree with all their reviews, AOS is bad enough that I don't watch it anymore, but I share their criticisms on Gotham.

 

[BestGirl]

But the A.V Club is such an important website, it's how I decide what to watch!

At least I can actually get through a full episode of Gotham. And this week's episode was actually pretty good.

You still don't think Agents of SHIELD is any good? I heard it had improved over last season.

 

[Frederic]

Too bad the assassin was killed. I thought he was great. Would have liked to have seen him as a recurring character.

I liked him myself. I think they should ditch the villain of the week formula, focus on the regulars while adding more regulars, and use various other villains in a more recurring capacity.

 

[The Guard]

And as someone said above, ya bodies are being burned and restaurants are being shot up but it comes off as goofy as bad place because of how it's presented.

How, pray tell, did the scene of the man being burned alive come off "goofy as bad place"?

 

[Bathead]

You still don't think Agents of SHIELD is any good? I heard it had improved over last season.

I like the show myself.

 

[flickchick85]

You still don't think Agents of SHIELD is any good? I heard it had improved over last season.

It has improved a great deal. Its early episodes were about on par with Gotham's in terms of achieving the tone that each is going for, imo, but now I find AoS to be much more successful at it. If this episode was any indication, though, I think Gotham will get there too before the season's done.