Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman - - Part 11

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That's the one, I'd say the people behind in green suits are most likely Pardemons. I definitely think this is Supermans resurrection but something happens after this and then he doesn't come back until the final fight to join the team. But I reckon we might still get scenes where he's meeting with Lois and Martha. So I see either the amnesiac idea or the he's lost some of his power and needs to recuperate. The latter seems more likely to me as it ties with the way the comics did it and we know Snyder loves to get as much source stuff in as possible.

I don't know. If they were Parademons they'd be in mo-cap suits. They're green, though, which means they'll be completely removed in post. Also, note the device around Ezra? Similar to the one they used for Jason's underwater scenes. The guys in green probably control that device to move him around.

Yup.

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People in green suits are not supposed to be visible in the actual film, for Parademons, they use motion tracker suit, which helps to render Parademons using CGI.

Whats that thing around Flash's waist?

They will attach the device (and Ezra) to a mechanical arm to rotate him along 3 axis (x, y, z)
 
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Yeah, I'm guessing the Flash will be running up some walls in that scene.
 
Perhaps, but that would definitely make him more of a weapon to the group than an inspirational figure for most of them.

I'm still wondering if Superman will get any decent interaction with any of the other league members that isn't Batman. BvS didn't exactly instill a whole lot of anticipation for wanting to see him interact with others because his quick verbal exchange with Wonder Woman was hardly anything to be happy about.

If that is a preview for what his interaction with the rest of the group is going to be like then, that's not really instilling a lot of confidence for his place in a shared universe.

Yeah, I'm still not confident about Superman's place in the shared universe and I wonder what his future will be after the JL.
 
People in green suits are not supposed to be visible in the actual film, for Parademons, they use motion tracker suit, which helps to render Parademons using CGI

I know I was already corrected and realised my mistake.
 
Yeah, I'm still not confident about Superman's place in the shared universe and I wonder what his future will be after the JL.

Indeed.

I just finished watching "The Defenders", and there were so many things that happened on that show, particularly in regards to Matt Murdock's/Daredevil's role, that I wish would have been applied to Superman's role in the DCEU.

Namely....BIG SPOILER...

when the rest of the members of the Defenders thought he was killed inside the building, we got to see on how they all responded to his death and how it impacted them. If only we got to see something as fleshed out like that in regards to Diana's response to Superman's death.

The ONLY thing that Diana ever said in BvS, regarding Superman,
was that the world didn't know how to honor him except as a soldier.That's it. We never got to see if he meant anything to her or what she thought about him.

Furthermore, they really built up the idea of Daredevil being the leader of this group, which is how I wish they would have done so for Superman.

all of the great character interactions that the characters had on the show....it's a real shame that Superman probably won't have as much, if not any real good ones, in JL because of the fact that he's dead for most of it before rejoining the group.
 
I hope in one of the promotions they do a highlight reel for Superman leading up to JL, and have a faint tease at the end
 
Haha, that's my best guess. It'd be nice to see the whole codex angle tied up as well. We'll see though. I think the final Alfred line in the trailer semi-confirms Clark comes back before the final act, but isn't totally himself.

Totally agree. Nice writeup above. I parallel it to a Logan or Superman III scenario in my head but there's without a doubt something up about Superman's resurrection, return and aftermath of his return, let alone his role with fighting alongside the league. I think there's going to be more to Superman in this film than just "he returns in the third act to save everyone the end." I'm really excited to see it play out and think if it hits, it'll do wonders for future films.
 
Indeed.

I just finished watching "The Defenders", and there were so many things that happened on that show, particularly in regards to Matt Murdock's/Daredevil's role, that I wish would have been applied to Superman's role in the DCEU.

Namely....BIG SPOILER...

when the rest of the members of the Defenders thought he was killed inside the building, we got to see on how they all responded to his death and how it impacted them. If only we got to see something as fleshed out like that in regards to Diana's response to Superman's death.

The ONLY thing that Diana ever said in BvS, regarding Superman,
was that the world didn't know how to honor him except as a soldier.That's it. We never got to see if he meant anything to her or what she thought about him.

Furthermore, they really built up the idea of Daredevil being the leader of this group, which is how I wish they would have done so for Superman.

all of the great character interactions that the characters had on the show....it's a real shame that Superman probably won't have as much, if not any real good ones, in JL because of the fact that he's dead for most of it before rejoining the group.

Of course he won't have as "much". It's a single film VS an entire TV season.
 
Totally agree. Nice writeup above. I parallel it to a Logan or Superman III scenario in my head but there's without a doubt something up about Superman's resurrection, return and aftermath of his return, let alone his role with fighting alongside the league. I think there's going to be more to Superman in this film than just "he returns in the third act to save everyone the end." I'm really excited to see it play out and think if it hits, it'll do wonders for future films.

Yeah this is my thinking as well. Can't wait to see what they give us
 
Totally agree. Nice writeup above. I parallel it to a Logan or Superman III scenario in my head but there's without a doubt something up about Superman's resurrection, return and aftermath of his return, let alone his role with fighting alongside the league. I think there's going to be more to Superman in this film than just "he returns in the third act to save everyone the end." I'm really excited to see it play out and think if it hits, it'll do wonders for future films.

:up:
 
Indeed.

I just finished watching "The Defenders", and there were so many things that happened on that show, particularly in regards to Matt Murdock's/Daredevil's role, that I wish would have been applied to Superman's role in the DCEU.

Namely....BIG SPOILER...

when the rest of the members of the Defenders thought he was killed inside the building, we got to see on how they all responded to his death and how it impacted them. If only we got to see something as fleshed out like that in regards to Diana's response to Superman's death.

The ONLY thing that Diana ever said in BvS, regarding Superman,
was that the world didn't know how to honor him except as a soldier.That's it. We never got to see if he meant anything to her or what she thought about him.

Furthermore, they really built up the idea of Daredevil being the leader of this group, which is how I wish they would have done so for Superman.

all of the great character interactions that the characters had on the show....it's a real shame that Superman probably won't have as much, if not any real good ones, in JL because of the fact that he's dead for most of it before rejoining the group.

Daredevil and Superman are different in meaningful ways, in this instance, that make me prefer Superman's treatment to Daredevil's.

Daredevil didn't die to save strangers; he died trying to reconnect with his immortal girlfriend who he could have reached in the aftermath. It was pointless. Daredevil's personal relationships with Foggy and Karen weren't on as solid ground or as intimate as Superman's were to Martha and to Lois. Daredevil didn't inspire or change anyone in the same way that Superman inspired and changed Batman, and despite his interactions with Jessica and Luke, neither seemed affected by his death. Daredevil isn't a public superhero whose relationship with the public was explored and transformed. Superman is meant to inspire and move people as a symbol, so even those who don't interact with him (kind of like Jesus' saying "blessed are those who believe without seeing") can be impacted. I felt nothing when Matt "died," because it wasn't heroic, I immediately saw he was fine, and it didn't cause a paradigm shift like Superman's death did. I also have less faith that his "resurrection" will involve the team or be as impactful as Superman's return.

In short, the differences in their treatment are what make Superman better in this situation, not worse, in my opinion.
 
I think you are underestimating how the battle can go, if he comes in at the point when hope is about to be lost and everyone will die, then there could easily still be a large chunk of the battle left, with more for him to do than just slug it out with Steppenwolf. He could give Cyborg the pep talk and confidence he needs to be able to sort through all of the streams of information bombarding him (if they go with the route that he struggles to deal with all of the information he'd have streaming through his head when he has his wireless up) to be able to muster up the force of will to close all the boom tubes, similar to how Martha Kent helped him through his sensory bombarbment issues.
 
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Okay, so sitting down and finally rewatching Man of Steel on Blu Ray, just arrived at the first flight scene. And wow, it's as exhilarating to watch here as it was in the theater. After watching Clark struggle with his identity, his powers- particularly love how shocked he is as they manifest when he's much younger- and just trying to do the right thing, to see him don that suit, trying to fly, and seeing the utter joy on his face as he takes to the sky. It's easily my favorite moment of this version of Superman. And at least one of my favorite parts of this universe by far. I've even grown to accept this color palette. Is it a bit muted? Sure, but that doesn't make it unwatchable or any less enjoyable. Not everything needs to be candy coated.

Side-note, with all the stuff on Krypton, I'd love to have spent more time there and am curious to see how, if at all, any more space opera stuff, maybe with the Lanterns, will play out in the rest of the DCEU.
 
Any chance we are seeing a just woken dazed and confused Supes trying to punch the Flash there? Maybe the ring around Ezra's waist and the green screen guys are there to move him out of the way of the punch for the CGI? Just guessing.
 
I've even grown to accept this color palette. Is it a bit muted? Sure, but that doesn't make it unwatchable or any less enjoyable. Not everything needs to be candy coated.

Same here. The color pallet reminds me of the Fleischer Cartoons, which I adore and belove. Those cartoons remain untouchable in every sense of the word so to have Man of Steel remind me of those animation films instantly makes a strong connection. I personally relate to the DCEU's version of Superman and I've grown fond of this iteration judging by that reality.
 
And just finished it. Wow, I already loved the track "What Are You Going to do When You Are Not Saving the World," but forgot how well it's slowly built up in that final scene with Clark at the Daily Planet. Which is a really nice ending. It feels very simple in execution and ends with the hero's human persona, versus something like Batman standing atop a rooftop while the Bat symbol shines in Batman '89 or Wonder Woman jumping forward to punch the camera at the end of her film- I like it.

I'm still gonna give that dumb family grief for not hightailing it out of the way before Zod's heat vision got too close, like everyone else did, but otherwise, I really did enjoy the action here and it does show, I feel, how overwhelmed Clark is at times since, hey, he's probably never dealt with anyone of Zod's magnitude up until this point. While I'm sure some will still say it's excessive damage, and it is at times, he's pretty unprepared for what he has to contend with, and as a result, can't contain or prevent it.

In context of the universe, it does make more sense looking back at this why Clark later took Doomsday into the sky versus fighting him on the ground. And I still enjoy how conflicted young Clark is, coupled with how Jonathan and Martha have with him. I could easily see myself coming back to Man of Steel. Coupled with looking at some of the extras, I get the same vibe watching this that I got from Watchmen in that there's a lot of little details to find on subsequent viewings.
 
Daredevil and Superman are different in meaningful ways, in this instance, that make me prefer Superman's treatment to Daredevil's.

Daredevil didn't die to save strangers; he died trying to reconnect with his immortal girlfriend who he could have reached in the aftermath. It was pointless. Daredevil's personal relationships with Foggy and Karen weren't on as solid ground or as intimate as Superman's were to Martha and to Lois. Daredevil didn't inspire or change anyone in the same way that Superman inspired and changed Batman, and despite his interactions with Jessica and Luke, neither seemed affected by his death. Daredevil isn't a public superhero whose relationship with the public was explored and transformed. Superman is meant to inspire and move people as a symbol, so even those who don't interact with him (kind of like Jesus' saying "blessed are those who believe without seeing") can be impacted. I felt nothing when Matt "died," because it wasn't heroic, I immediately saw he was fine, and it didn't cause a paradigm shift like Superman's death did. I also have less faith that his "resurrection" will involve the team or be as impactful as Superman's return.

In short, the differences in their treatment are what make Superman better in this situation, not worse, in my opinion.

Well yeah, I mean I know that both Superman and Daredevil are very different characters.

And yeah the world's reaction and the circumstances surrounding Daredevil's death were very different from Superman's.

I think the thing that I was trying to get at is that the way that "The Defenders" handled portraying everyone's reaction to Matt's death felt more personal than how "BvS" handled.

I mean sure, we definitely got some great shots of Martha and Lois being in mourning to Superman's death, along with a montage of scenes showcasing the world's response. But I felt like "The Defenders" approach felt more personal and intimate than "BvS's". I wish BvS would have had Diana saying something more in response to Superman's death like how Defenders had people actually verbalizing their response to Daredevil's death. When Superman died, he did not intentionally inspire Batman to become a better hero....whereas we had Matt asking/telling Danny to take care of the city in his absence. Matt's death also made an impact on someone as cynical as Jessica as well.

Hell, I wish we could get to hear on what the likes of Arthur, Victor,
and even Barry thinks about Superman and if his death made any impact on them.

I think you are underestimating how the battle can go, if he comes in at the point when hope is about to be lost and everyone will die, then there could easily still be a large chunk of the battle left, with more for him to do than just slug it out with Steppenwolf. He could give Cyborg the pep talk and confidence he needs to be able to sort through all of the streams of information bombarding him (if they go with the route that he struggles to deal with all of the information he'd have streaming through his head when he has his wireless up) to be able to muster up the force of will to close all the boom tubes, similar to how Martha Kent helped him through his sensory bombarbment issues.

Well my biggest concern has always been that Superman's role in the final battle would always be something as short as Wonder Woman's role in the final battle that took place against Doomsday in BvS. Sure, it was a kickass entrance that she made and she was definitely vital in defeating Doomsday...but it also left a lot to be desired.

We never saw her talking or coordinating with any of the trinity members after the whole "Is she with you?" moment and her role in the battle was like less than 4 minutes worth of screen time.

Also, another reason why I don't expect much is because Superman doesn't have a previously established relationship with most of these guys so it wouldn't make sense for him to be talking or communicating with them much in the final battle. I've never seen or heard of a character who was absent for most of the movie and had a large role in the climax where it wasn't just short and sweet.

The reason why Hawkeye got to do as much as he did in the first Avengers movie for the Battle in NYC was because not only did he have an established relationship with Widow, but he actually joined the group at the beginning of the final fight. Superman may very well just show up last minute, land a few blows on Steppenwolf to keep him busy while the rest of the gang are off doing what they need to do to win the day.

For the so called prophetic words that Jor-el said to Superman in MOS, about people joining him in the sun, the way that this film has been set up in its structure felt like it was meant to further isolate him from people and not to have him actually have friends and people to rely on.
 
And just finished it. Wow, I already loved the track "What Are You Going to do When You Are Not Saving the World," but forgot how well it's slowly built up in that final scene with Clark at the Daily Planet. Which is a really nice ending. It feels very simple in execution and ends with the hero's human persona, versus something like Batman standing atop a rooftop while the Bat symbol shines in Batman '89 or Wonder Woman jumping forward to punch the camera at the end of her film- I like it.

I'm still gonna give that dumb family grief for not hightailing it out of the way before Zod's heat vision got too close, like everyone else did, but otherwise, I really did enjoy the action here and it does show, I feel, how overwhelmed Clark is at times since, hey, he's probably never dealt with anyone of Zod's magnitude up until this point. While I'm sure some will still say it's excessive damage, and it is at times, he's pretty unprepared for what he has to contend with, and as a result, can't contain or prevent it.

In context of the universe, it does make more sense looking back at this why Clark later took Doomsday into the sky versus fighting him on the ground. And I still enjoy how conflicted young Clark is, coupled with how Jonathan and Martha have with him. I could easily see myself coming back to Man of Steel. Coupled with looking at some of the extras, I get the same vibe watching this that I got from Watchmen in that there's a lot of little details to find on subsequent viewings.
i think one of the main reasons why MOS was received poorly during its time is because it is in the aftermath of the Avengers Movie. The ending in the avengers showing them helping the people in the ruined city, the audiences just love it so much. They thought they would see the same in MOS. but MOS has nothing. absolutely nothing after killing Zod. it cut right away to the Smallville scene.
 
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And that's valid, absolutely, and if one thing I can say about Age of Ultron and Dawn of Justice, it emphasized the need to either a. rescue bystanders or b. fight in a secluded area away from people, but in Man of Steel, while Clark didn't spend a chunk of time in Metropolis saving people outside of Lois, but at least in the Smallville battle we saw him telling people to get to safety, as well as helping a few.
 
Well yeah, I mean I know that both Superman and Daredevil are very different characters.

I know you know that. You also know exactly what I meant by that. They are different characters, so expectations for one and what works for one may not work the same way with the other.

And yeah the world's reaction and the circumstances surrounding Daredevil's death were very different from Superman's.

I think the thing that I was trying to get at is that the way that "The Defenders" handled portraying everyone's reaction to Matt's death felt more personal than how "BvS" handled.

I mean sure, we definitely got some great shots of Martha and Lois being in mourning to Superman's death, along with a montage of scenes showcasing the world's response. But I felt like "The Defenders" approach felt more personal and intimate than "BvS's". I wish BvS would have had Diana saying something more in response to Superman's death like how Defenders had people actually verbalizing their response to Daredevil's death. When Superman died, he did not intentionally inspire Batman to become a better hero....whereas we had Matt asking/telling Danny to take care of the city in his absence. Matt's death also made an impact on someone as cynical as Jessica as well.

Hell, I wish we could get to hear on what the likes of Arthur, Victor,
and even Barry thinks about Superman and if his death made any impact on them.

In my opinion, you shouldn't be so dismissive of the world's reaction and the role the public plays in Superman's death narrative. He is a public superhero unlike Daredevil. When analyzing and reacting to Superman you have to consider the micro (the personal) and the macro (the public or bigger picture). The story of Superman and Batman's conflict and its resolution is what happened with Superman's relationship with the public in microcosm. Just as Danny Rand is the one most affected by Matt Murdock's death, Bruce Wayne is most affected by Clark Kent's -- except the whole world is in the same place as Bruce. They had been uncertain and untrusting of Superman, but they saw his humanity in his ability to bleed and to die, and they felt loved and believed in because he was willing to make that sacrifice for them. The whole world can't speak in individual scenes, but they can try to honor Superman as a soldier at Arlington or with a candlelight vigil in Metropolis. Headlines in The Daily Planet speak of a world in mourning. Among the faces of the mourners are ones who have been with Superman along the way like Pete, Father Leone, Perry, Jenny, Swanwick, and Farris. His loss and his inspiration transcends the personal, and that is important.

What's also important is the nature of the hero's death. Despite some of the dialogue in The Defenders, Matt Murdock didn't sacrifice himself for the city he loved. He sacrificed himself for the woman he loved: Elektra. He didn't need to stay with her and could have left with the others. He wasn't needed to stay with Elektra to save the city. He didn't leave with the others and put himself in harm's way for the greater good. By contrast, Clark sacrificed himself TWICE for the entire world. First, he took a nuclear blast in the hopes it would destroy Doomsday, and then he stabbed him in the heart. His final words were an expression of his love for Earth and for Lois. His death is framed, once again, as having both micro and macro dimensions, and it is presented as explicitly an altruistic act.

I also think you're not only overstating the way Daredevil's death was explored in its aftermath, but also splitting hairs by not acknowledging the specifics of what did or did not happen with the Defenders versus the Trinity or Justice League. Your interpretation of The Defenders as being more intimate and personal with individuals verbalizing their reactions is not reflected in the actual events or dialogue, for example. Before delving into the heroes, it should be acknowledged that in terms of personal connections, Matt's with Karen, Foggy, and Claire were less intimate than Clark's with Martha and Lois, but both Martha and Lois and Foggy and Karen had scenes showing them in mourning. We also got to actually see Clark's funeral, however.

Looking at just the heroes, Matt asking Danny to protect the city may have been more direct than what Superman did with Batman, but it actually isn't as personal. There is no reason for Matt to choose Danny for that particular message, and the truth seems to be that it wasn't his intention to inspire Danny directly. In fact, the way it plays out, Danny delivers the message to everyone outside of the collapsing building, telling those assembled, "Matt said something before he told us to leave. He said, 'Protect my city'." Since Danny's original Iron Fist destiny of defeating The Hand had been fulfilled, and after Luke Cage's sage advice about doing something with his privilege, Danny chooses to walk through the door that Matt's words had opened. He has a change of heart from someone who was focused on his own journey and his own mission to someone ready to look outward. Bruce is the same.

The words that meant the most to Bruce -- his rallying cry -- wasn't "Protect my city," but "Save Martha." When Clark trusted Bruce to save Martha, he was not only helping Bruce to access the best part of himself, but to feel re-inspired to dedicate himself to that purpose and to hope rather than stay lost in his trauma, fear, and anger. Bruce, like Danny, has the most explicit dialogue explaining how he's been inspired. For Bruce, he doesn't want to fail Clark again, so he will believe in himself, humanity, and in heroes again. He will recruit them and, as James Gordon says, return to cooperating with others.

As for the rest, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones are never shown to explicitly mourn Matt or to be inspired by him. Trish, Jessica's friend, tells Jessica, "Think of all the lives you saved." To which Jessica responds, "And the one we lost." That is literally it when it comes to Jessica's point of view on Matt. It's the same point of view we get from Luke when he tells Foggy, "Mr. Nelson, I'm sorry for your loss." Foggy has to be the one to tell Luke "It's all of our loss." In short, Jessica's and Luke's alleged intimate and personal verbalization of grief, inspiration, and reaction to Matt's death amounts to just them acknowledging that he died and to Luke not even viewing Matt's loss as a personal one for him. Now Jessica does decide to reopen Alias Investigations, but that isn't directly tied to Matt. She had already been investigating the architect, which is how she got involved in the war against The Hand in the first place, and since she never credits Matt, one can't assume that it was just him but rather the whole experience, including getting closure with Luke that inspired her to continue.

You could say the same thing for Diana in Wonder Woman. She ends her film in a return to the present day with a voiceover that informs us that she had stepped away to let humanity choose its own fate, but that now she embraces her role as protector. We know that it was Snyder's intention with both Wonder Woman and with Justice League to show that Diana was inspired by Superman whose death not only reminded her of Steve's but who helped resolve a core conflict of hers: the relationship between gods and humanity. So, unlike Daredevil's death, Superman's death saves the world from destruction, and it creates a paradigm shift so that superheroes can operate in public for the greater good. In addition, more insight into Diana's, Bruce's, the rest of the league's, and the world's reaction to Superman's death hasn't been seen yet; there is more to come. Thus, it's unfair to judge a complete story like the one in The Defenders against an incomplete one like the DCEU's.
 
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