The Dark Knight Rises Ideas For Incorporating Characters Into the Nolanverse

[namtaB]

I completely agree.

The series so far has dealt with a primary conflict within the titular character for each film notably fear in the first and morality/integrity in the second.

IMO if the next film deals with Batman struggling with whether he should go on being Bruce Wayne, as a public figure, it paves the way for the establishment of the Wayne Foundation and its importance in the mythology. Additionally his prominence as a business executive needs to come to the forefront. No more falling asleep in meetings and letting Lucius Fox handle all the big decisions. This also sets up the idea of Fox being a casualty in the next film which would force Wayne to step up as a true CEO rather than just the face of the business.

In other words, I think an interesting theme for the next film is balance. Finding the right balance b/w Batman and Bruce Wayne and his realization that they are both vitally important to his goal to be a force for good. Things Batman can't do, Bruce Wayne can and vice versa.

Of course, I'm not claiming this is what the next film will be about. Just my thoughts on what I think an interesting direction would be for Batman 3.

 

[BestGirl]

The series so far has dealt with a primary conflict within the titular character for each film notably fear in the first and morality/integrity in the second.

IMO if the next film deals with Batman struggling with whether he should go on being Bruce Wayne, as a public figure, it paves the way for the establishment of the Wayne Foundation and its importance in the mythology. Additionally his prominence as a business executive needs to come to the forefront. No more falling asleep in meetings and letting Lucius Fox handle all the big decisions. This also sets up the idea of Fox being a casualty in the next film which would force Wayne to step up as a true CEO rather than just the face of the business.

In other words, I think an interesting theme for the next film is balance. Finding the right balance b/w Batman and Bruce Wayne and his realization that they are both vitally important to his goal to be a force for good. Things Batman can't do, Bruce Wayne can and vice versa.

Of course, I'm not claiming this is what the next film will be about. Just my thoughts on what I think an interesting direction would be for Batman 3.

Bruce would have a helluva time being both a true CEO and Batman. For that reason alone I think Lucius should stay on. I like your idea about him wanting to give up being Bruce, though.

 

[namtaB]

Bruce would have a helluva time being both a true CEO and Batman. For that reason alone I think Lucius should stay on. I like your idea about him wanting to give up being Bruce, though.

I never liked the idea of peripheral characters knowing Batman's identity. Assuming Dawes's death is a trend I'm all for the idea that Lucius Fox gets killed in the next film. Not only b/c I feel Alfred should be the sole person privy to the secret identity but also b/c I think it serves a two fold purpose. First, it makes Wayne less dependent on Lucius Fox. The whole Fox is like Q from Bond is cute, but Batman needs to be a little more self sufficient. We sort of see that in TDK when he spearheads a "government telecommunications project." I hope it gets further developed in the next film. Second, it forces the Bruce Wayne persona to step up as a business executive. He's had an ivy league education and his experience living as a criminal give him the street smarts to succeed in business. He can surround himself with a competent Board and senior executives, but he should take a more active role in business deals rather than falling asleep and letting Fox run the show.

Up until know Bruce Wayne has simply been a cover for Batman to hide behind as a vapid playboy persona by day and for giving him access to money and high tech equipment. But I think its time for Batman to realize the importance of Bruce Wayne beyond just being a social mask. Wayne should become the CEO and philanthropist in a true sense. This realization should be what he struggles with in the next film against the backdrop of action, a good story, and spectacular villains.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Lucious shouldnt die. We dont want more people dying on him. Maybe Bruce can push him away, or he can resign from helping Batman for whatever reasons.
Its true that in real life, Bruce Wayne would have trouble being a true CEO, but i would like it if he steps it up just a notch. From barely stepping in Wayne Ent, he can do a few meetings, etc. I think he should mature his Wayne persona as well. I mean, how long is he gonna pretend to be the obnoxious playboy? BTAS Bruce was an assertive CEO, a playboy (not the arrogant prick he is in the nolanverse though) and a philanthropist. Its about time Bruce uses his fortune for some charity work. Besides, you dont need to be insufferable to dodge suspicion. BTAS Bruce did it by doing something clumsy in front of a lot of people and stuff like that.

Furthermore, i dont like the "Bruce considering on dropping the wayne persona and being only batman". They have done it thousands of times in the comics, and its overplayed (bad writing if you ask me. "Ooh, lets write batman as a complete *****e, and obsessed wacko!"). Now its happening on Smallville. Its so cliche. Maybe he could have thought of that when the Joker was raining havoc over gotham and with Rachel's death affecting his judgement, but now, i dont think he cant spend a few hours a day being Bruce.

There is always something for Bruce to do. You cant keep all your focus on Batman brooding in the batcave because the joker got away. Writers usually use Bruce's social exploits to introduce us to various political and criminal figures that hang out where he does. Nolan went further than that, putting Bruce in action scenes! The Lambo one was magnificent, but the bike one not so much. Why would he take off the helmet in broad daylight? He is Bruce Wayne, the prince of Gotham. He would have to go a thousand miles to meet someone who didnt know his name! (damn i know most of BB's dialogue by heart! )

 

[namtaB]

Furthermore, i dont like the "Bruce considering on dropping the wayne persona and being only batman". They have done it thousands of times in the comics, and its overplayed (bad writing if you ask me. "Ooh, lets write batman as a complete *****e, and obsessed wacko!").

Everything's been done a thousand times before, so that point is moot. That's not really the issue. The issue is how its presented. For instance, on a superficial level the similarity b/w Joker 89 and Joker TDK is striking. They both usurp the mob's power and displace it, they're both psychotic and kill innocent lives, they both have an obsession with Batman (in Burton's film the obsession revolves around Batman getting the limelight over the Joker and in Nolan's film the obsession revolves around his morality/integrity), they both don't really care about anything of traditional value, they both put out a wacky video, etc. But there's so much richness to Nolan's presentation of the character that Burton never explored. I think the issue of Batman refusing to wear the mask of Bruce Wayne any longer and finding the correct balance b/w Bruce Wayne and Batman is an interesting one to explore. I have no doubt that Nolan can present it with the same richness if he chooses to explore the issue, notwithstanding that its been done before in various mediums.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Well i am interesting in seeing Bruce Wayne as well as Batman, so i wouldnt like to see the same emo bullcrap for the 1000th time. "ooh i ll be batman all the time". I never liked this super obsessed, psychotic batman.
For a good amount of screentime of both Bruce and Batman, it would be wise if the next film is a batman film and not a crime drama. Bring the focus back to him.

 

[BestGirl]

Everything's been done a thousand times before, so that point is moot. That's not really the issue. The issue is how its presented. For instance, on a superficial level the similarity b/w Joker 89 and Joker TDK is striking. They both usurp the mob's power and displace it, they're both psychotic and kill innocent lives, they both have an obsession with Batman (in Burton's film the obsession revolves around Batman getting the limelight over the Joker and in Nolan's film the obsession revolves around his morality/integrity), they both don't really care about anything of traditional value, they both put out a wacky video, etc. But there's so much richness to Nolan's presentation of the character that Burton never explored. I think the issue of Batman refusing to wear the mask of Bruce Wayne any longer and finding the correct balance b/w Bruce Wayne and Batman is an interesting one to explore. I have no doubt that Nolan can present it with the same richness if he chooses to explore the issue, notwithstanding that its been done before in various mediums.

I just had an idea: Bruce has a party to attend tonight, but he doesn't want to go because he's tired of the whole playboy facade. Alfred pushes him hard to keep up appearances and Bruce heads to the party. He's miserable until he sees Selina Kyle...

 

[Joe_Kerr]

Long time listener, first time caller.

The Nolan-Batman films tend to hang on a central theme. Begins is fear. That's pretty obvious. TDK is about chaos vs. order. I think we can all see the signifiers there. Given what we know of Batman mythology, (and in my opinion) Nolan will probably pick one of the following:

Duality
Pride
Beasts

With Duality, our main problem is that the main villain who has duality at his core was introduced in TDK and supposedly died at the end. Of course, they only say that Harvey Dent is dead, giving plausibility to the notion that Two Face survived the fall and will live to flip another day. A good back-up villain for this theme would be The Ventriloquist and Scarface. I envision a plot surrounding Scarface attempt to fill the gap left by the incarcerated mob bosses, whilst Two Face struggles with his dual persona and finds himself running into Batman on many an occasion. Bruce/Bats has trouble separating his two lives also, delving deeper into the Bat-persona.

Pride's a great one, because it allows us to use the vainest of Bat-villains, The Riddler. While Eddie Nygma goes on a killing spree (let's ramp up this guy to narcissistic serial killer - he's more interesting that way), he leaves behind clues and riddle for Bats to find, however, he's not having much luck - but his pride is getting the way of him going to Gordon for help (also knowing he's a wanted man by the GCPD).

Beasts opens up the possibility of a few villains, namely Man-Bat, Killer Croc and Penguin. Man-Bat is a bit to fantastical for Nolan's universe, but Killer Croc can easily fit into the world as a circus freak turned criminal turned savage beast. Penguin, whilst not strictly a beast, is looking to start his own criminal empire and hires/blackmails Killer Croc into being his enforcer. Batman, still on the run from the GCPD, is losing his humanity as he's blocked at every turn and starts to rely on pure instinct, and he loses his ability to think logically.

In all there if these, the GCPD are as much a villain to Batman, as they were an accomplice in TDK. Gordon gets in a new Lieutenant, in the form of Renee Montoya, who is not only effective in her role as "bat-hunter", she's also a foil for Bruce Wayne and gets close to putting two and two together. By the end of the flick, she's forced to work with Bats and realises he's a force for good and so she closes the file on him, and makes sure he's free to fight crime, his way.

Title:

Batman Redeemed.

 

[sabetoonth]

not a fan of the title, but damn its good to have some fresh blood on the plate, really cool ideas

 

[sabetoonth]

I never liked the idea of peripheral characters knowing Batman's identity. Assuming Dawes's death is a trend I'm all for the idea that Lucius Fox gets killed in the next film. Not only b/c I feel Alfred should be the sole person privy to the secret identity but also b/c I think it serves a two fold purpose. First, it makes Wayne less dependent on Lucius Fox. The whole Fox is like Q from Bond is cute, but Batman needs to be a little more self sufficient. We sort of see that in TDK when he spearheads a "government telecommunications project." I hope it gets further developed in the next film. Second, it forces the Bruce Wayne persona to step up as a business executive. He's had an ivy league education and his experience living as a criminal give him the street smarts to succeed in business. He can surround himself with a competent Board and senior executives, but he should take a more active role in business deals rather than falling asleep and letting Fox run the show.

Up until know Bruce Wayne has simply been a cover for Batman to hide behind as a vapid playboy persona by day and for giving him access to money and high tech equipment. But I think its time for Batman to realize the importance of Bruce Wayne beyond just being a social mask. Wayne should become the CEO and philanthropist in a true sense. This realization should be what he struggles with in the next film against the backdrop of action, a good story, and spectacular villains.

i like you

 

[COMPO]

i like you

are you the french guy from Spiderman 3? "I like you?"

wee?

 

[Mr. Earle]

Duality
Pride
Beasts

I read that as Breasts and i assumed you were talking about Catwoman.

 

[Joe_Kerr]

I read that as Breasts and i assumed you were talking about Catwoman.

Nolan's saving that for the porn-parody.

 

[Mister H.]

As others have pointed out, the villains must reflect the themes addressed in the fnal act of Nolan's three part Bat-drama. What those themes will be, we can only guess. I like some of namtaB and Joe Kerr's ideas, but its virtually impossible for any of us to know.

I think isolation and solitude could be something that Nolan addresses. Bruce becomes fully engrossed in his Batman persona, and without the support of Rachel, Dent, Fox, and even Gordon, who must (at least publicly) hunt the Batman, is left to brood in his newly built Batcave and convince his only remaining friend, Alfred, that his is a battle worth continuing.

This is why the Riddler seems like a logical fit to me. He is a villain acting alone, with no interest in mob turf or villainous grandstanding. He exists solely to challenge Batman in psychological warfare. There will be no physical encounter, no punches will be exchanged.

Of course, other villains should be used sparsely, and who they should be I have no idea, but they should reflect some of the minor themes in the film as well.

 

[ALittlePush]

I think choice and consequences could be a good theme for the third film. Batman and Gordon made the choice to blame Batman for Dent's actions, now they have to deal with the consequences.

 

[sabetoonth]

are you the french guy from Spiderman 3? "I like you?"

wee?

actually the closest to french i come is im a direct descendent of william the conqueror who was norman and charlemagne

 

[blackkeno]

IMO if the next film deals with Batman struggling with whether he should go on being Bruce Wayne, as a public figure, it paves the way for the establishment of the Wayne Foundation and its importance in the mythology. Additionally his prominence as a business executive needs to come to the forefront. No more falling asleep in meetings and letting Lucius Fox handle all the big decisions. This also sets up the idea of Fox being a casualty in the next film which would force Wayne to step up as a true CEO rather than just the face of the business.
quote]

It's a minor point, but I've seen several references to Bruce falling asleep in the meeting. IHMO, he was pretending to fall asleep as part of making his Bruce Wayne persona seem unlikely to be the Batman. Notice, how right after the meeting when he is alone with Fox, he is on top of the details of the merger and had already deduced the problems with Lao's company. Even if Bruce was half a sleep from his nighttime activities, this doesn't change the fact the he was clearly on top of things with Fox.

Rather than Batman needing to be more independent, I think as a practical matter, it would be more suspicious if he was directly having Wayne Enterprises develop Batman's equipment. Fox provides both the buffer for Bruce and the years of expertise to make this more plausible.

 

[sabetoonth]

yes, fox is like the directions or the box, bruce just needs to play with th toys, after he makes the order

 

[Mr. Earle]

and convince his only remaining friend, Alfred, that his is a battle worth continuing.

Alfred was the one who suggested that he should become the outcast remember?

There will be no physical encounter, no punches will be exchanged.

Oh come on now, no fights? Its not like we got a lot of them so far...

 

[Alex Logan]

i didnt mean he should literally fight 600 people either, wat i meant was for him to fight alot of people at once just like tony jaa in that scene. u dont think 25 is a reasonable # cause that's about how many tony fought in that scene. i think it could work really well and it would get more people excited to actually see batman fight.

There's only one problem with your idea, one man fighting 25 guys the way Tony did is not realistic.

 

[Alex Logan]

Version 7

A new and mysterious female D.A. emerges Talia Head and sparks the interest of Bruce Wayne and she is secretly Talia al Ghul (Despite not appearing in Batman Begins, where Ra's al Ghul is the main villain, she is mentioned in the novelization when Ra's writes to his daughter in Switzerland and al Ghul's character biography in the DVD special features.) She is a complex character, not quite heroine nor villainess but more of an anti-hero. Talia has brought a team of the remaining League of Shadows Warriors to Gotham City to hunt down the Batman and force him to join them or pay for her father’s death. The League is fully aware that the city has been under siege from the Black Mask and his False Face Society for years.

The Joker was used by the Black Mask who wanted to move in on the mob families in Gotham, to tear apart the structure built up by Sal Maroni and at the same time destroy the influence of Batman. The Black Mask is an older man, very rich, and a rogue member of the league of shadows. After leaving the League he formed the False Face Society who recruited the Joker. Black Mask's most important weapons are fear and intimidation. He is known for his brutal and sadistic torture techniques, especially on the face. He sees the Joker’s purpose was served as he drove the Batman from hero to vigilante in the general public eye, and needs to dispose of the Joker before his identity is revealed. The Black Mask is secretly also a wealthy business man and has the pull to push around Bruce Wayne and also fabricate documents and information. His Intel is unparalleled, he nearly completes a hostile takeover of Wayne Enterprises, and he is a master criminal strategist with vast amount of resources. He was the crime lord of Gotham city for many years as an undercover businessman and was the original target of Ras al Ghul. Black Mask also uses his connections to gather information on his enemies, and then hits them at their weak points, such as family and friends. (ties to Thomas Wayne, and his death) The Black Mask infiltrates Wayne Enterprises and in an attempt to take over the building kills Lucious Fox. Black Mask commits a series of murders disguised as Batman. This plan is complicated by the escape of Joker. Joker finds and seeks revenge on the Black Mask exposing his true identity and scarring him in the process. The False Face Society and the League of Shadows Hunters led by Talia go to war in the streets of Gotham.

Climax would be Joker now destroying what’s left of the mob and taking over the reins of The False Face Society. He holds the city for ransom by revealing he has a plan to detonate another bomb similar to what destroys Wayne enterprises.

First off let me say that I like fresh ideas. I haven't really read anything like this for a while now. Having said that there's one big problem...

I don't see the Joker working for SOMEONE else. Even when he was working for the mob he was really only out for himself.

I'm not a big fan of Talia D.A. idea either. How about a smaller part with Pamela Isley as the new D.A.? Maybe she's working for Black Mask and using a derivative of the Fear Toxin? I don't know, just an idea...

Also, I think your climax is too close to what we saw in TDK.

Obviously its you who never read The Killing Joke because in it Joker had a prego wife and was the Red Hood before falling in the chemicals that change his appearance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Killing_Joke

I love it when people use Wiki to back up their argument. Sorry my friend, but you have failed here.

 

[Figs]

I never liked the idea of peripheral characters knowing Batman's identity. Assuming Dawes's death is a trend I'm all for the idea that Lucius Fox gets killed in the next film. Not only b/c I feel Alfred should be the sole person privy to the secret identity but also b/c I think it serves a two fold purpose. First, it makes Wayne less dependent on Lucius Fox. The whole Fox is like Q from Bond is cute, but Batman needs to be a little more self sufficient. We sort of see that in TDK when he spearheads a "government telecommunications project." I hope it gets further developed in the next film. Second, it forces the Bruce Wayne persona to step up as a business executive. He's had an ivy league education and his experience living as a criminal give him the street smarts to succeed in business. He can surround himself with a competent Board and senior executives, but he should take a more active role in business deals rather than falling asleep and letting Fox run the show.

Up until know Bruce Wayne has simply been a cover for Batman to hide behind as a vapid playboy persona by day and for giving him access to money and high tech equipment. But I think its time for Batman to realize the importance of Bruce Wayne beyond just being a social mask. Wayne should become the CEO and philanthropist in a true sense. This realization should be what he struggles with in the next film against the backdrop of action, a good story, and spectacular villains.

Have to agree with just about all of this. I don't necessarily think Lucious should die but I do agree that Wayne needs to be more self sufficient. That's why I really liked that boardroom scene in TDK where after the meeting Lucious asks Wayne that he already knew something was fishy with Lau's records, and Wayne then replies "I just needed to take a closer look".

 

[sabetoonth]

"... at their books"

 

[Figs]

"... at their books"

Thanks for the added correction, couldn't remember the exact line.

 

[ViciousValentin]

The series so far has dealt with a primary conflict within the titular character for each film notably fear in the first and morality/integrity in the second.

IMO if the next film deals with Batman struggling with whether he should go on being Bruce Wayne, as a public figure, it paves the way for the establishment of the Wayne Foundation and its importance in the mythology. Additionally his prominence as a business executive needs to come to the forefront. No more falling asleep in meetings and letting Lucius Fox handle all the big decisions. This also sets up the idea of Fox being a casualty in the next film which would force Wayne to step up as a true CEO rather than just the face of the business.

In other words, I think an interesting theme for the next film is balance. Finding the right balance b/w Batman and Bruce Wayne and his realization that they are both vitally important to his goal to be a force for good. Things Batman can't do, Bruce Wayne can and vice versa.

Of course, I'm not claiming this is what the next film will be about. Just my thoughts on what I think an interesting direction would be for Batman 3.

Thats exactly what my story I wrote would be about and what villian would be better than one who can push him on both fronts as Bruce Wayne or Batman than Black Mask.