Jared Leto IS The Joker - - - - - - - - Part 17

[ironman29758]

Recast talk is nothin but bs.

Leto is a good actor. Give him good material and he will come through. Ayer just did not get the character.

Sad to say. I was expecting a Alonzo Harris character with Mark Hamill Joker characteristics(and elements of other live action Jokers). Honestly, inspired by Jason Momoa Aquaman, I would rather they keep the look and just develop and revamp the persona (because certain scenes based on how the set videos like Joker slapping Harley and the novel like Joker manipulating Monster T into killing himself, and Joker back and forth with Harley would have been handled better).

But I agree with Hulk-1700, the simple fact that so many scenes that didn't get reinserted to give us an true look into the character and the scene, yet certain scenes suggested they were cut for good reason.

 

[KillerWolf]

Sad to say. I was expecting a Alonzo Harris character with Mark Hamill Joker characteristics(and elements of other live action Jokers). Honestly, inspired by Jason Momoa Aquaman, I would rather they keep the look and just develop and revamp the persona (because certain scenes based on how the set videos like Joker slapping Harley and the novel like Joker manipulating Monster T into killing himself, and Joker back and forth with Harley would have been handled better).

But I agree with Hulk-1700, the simple fact that so many scenes that didn't get reinserted to give us an true look into the character and the scene, yet certain scenes suggested they were cut for good reason.

First time hearing about this. How so?

 

[MasterChief2829]

First time hearing about this. How so?

It's in the film adaption book, and verified in film here (and they even used this photo in advertising the extended cut, grr):

Reshoot version months later clearly wearing a wig,

But of course, WB didn't want to put any effort in to this, they simply took the trailer house cut we got in theaters and threw in a couple scenes they cut out for no good reason at all lol

 

[KillerWolf]

Ah, I remember this pic of Joker giving his gun to Monster T (actually, mentioned it just recently in another thread)... so that's what it was about, Joker was trying to get him to kill himself. But how did he manipulate him into doing it exactly?

And I agree, that extended cut is a joke.

 

[MasterChief2829]

Ah, I remember this pic of Joker giving his gun to Monster T (actually, mentioned it just recently in another thread), so that's what it was about, Joker was trying to get him to kill himself. But how did he manipulate him into doing it exactly?

In the novel Joker sees Common looking at Harley and asks if he's enjoying her. T starts to say yes but then says "No, that's your lady Joker" and talks about not wanting to mess up business between them. Joker says "Are you saying you don't like her?" This goes on and Monster T says there is no right answer. Harley comes in, Joker gifts her to him. T says he wants no beef, Joker tells him to accept his gift, "I'm sick of her" and hands him his gun, asking him to do him the favor. Harley is playing along and pointing her finger at her head and tells him to do it right between the eyes. T figures he has to take the gun otherwise Joker would shoot him himself. He took it hoping Joker would back off but they waited for him, then he realized he was screwed and was going to be killed either way. Joker says "So, do you know the answer now?" and I think this is where that still photo comes in. T nods and Joker laughs and gestures for him to continue. "Time for you to save yourself". T points the gun under his chin, mutters a prayer and shoots himself.

“Smart guy," Joker said, and he laughed. “Lotta brains.”
Harley squealed with delight as she fingered some of T’s smart-guyness off of her face. She leaned into Joker for a big kiss, but he pulled back.
“Don’t touch me,” he growled. “This is on you. You know that guy made me a lot of money. We’re leaving.”

and then this leads to the the batmobile chase scene, Joker and Harley get into a fight about it, Joker talks about slamming into a wall which is where the "C'mon puddin, do it!" line is from.

 

[KillerWolf]

In the novel Joker sees Common looking at Harley and asks if he's enjoying her. T starts to say yes but then says "No, that's your lady Joker" and talks about not wanting to mess up business between them. Joker says "Are you saying you don't like her?" This goes on and Monster T says there is no right answer. Harley comes in, Joker gifts her to him. T says he wants no beef, Joker tells him to accept his gift, "I'm sick of her" and hands him his gun, asking him to do him the favor. Harley is playing along and pointing her finger at her head and tells him to do it right between the eyes. T figures he has to take the gun otherwise Joker would shoot him himself. He took it hoping Joker would back off but they waited for him, then he realized he was screwed and was going to be killed either way. Joker says "So, do you know the answer now?" and I think this is where that still photo comes in. T nods and Joker laughs and gestures for him to continue. "Time for you to save yourself". T points the gun under his chin, mutters a prayer and shoots himself.

“Smart guy," Joker said, and he laughed. “Lotta brains.”
Harley squealed with delight as she fingered some of T’s smart-guyness off of her face. She leaned into Joker for a big kiss, but he pulled back.
“Don’t touch me,” he growled. “This is on you. You know that guy made me a lot of money. We’re leaving.”

and then this leads to the the batmobile chase scene, Joker and Harley get into a fight about it, Joker talks about slamming into a wall which is where the "C'mon puddin, do it!" line is from.

Thanks a lot, mate.

And now I'm even more pissed at WB and their butcher's knife.

 

[LoganGambit87]

Recast talk is nothin but bs.

Leto is a good actor. Give him good material and he will come through. Ayer just did not get the character.

its not even that he didn't get the character but ayer needed to reign leto in and ground the performance if ayer just told him to go all out then thats what we got

max landis said it quite perfect

 

[Boom]

Everyone's so quick to jump on the editing being an issue here.

Could Leto's overall performance have been the victim of poor editing? Sure. But I'd say these are just as likely.

1) The scenes left on the editing floor contributed nothing to the plot, even moreso than what was actually left in. Frankly, his involvement in the film just barely services the plot as is. The Joker could have been written out of the film completely with little-to-no consequence. What does one extra second of him slapping Harley or him convincing Monster T to kill himself (LOL) really contribute, besides more screentime for the sake of it?

2) The cut Joker footage simply wasn't any good (per test audiences), and Ayer picked the material that was actually serviceable. As much as people may not want to admit this, it could have simply been a bad performance all around, and what we see in the film (both the theatrical and extended cuts) is the best of what they had.

Ultimately, the script was more at fault than the editing methinks, because Leto was given the task of playing a character that really had no business being in the film as written. And I think Ayer realized that in the editing room. They shot all this Joker footage, only to cut the movie together and realize it didn't do **** for the plot at all. I actually think cutting the Joker down to a minimum was the smartest editing choice they could have made, from a narrative perspective. Cutting excess fat is responsible filmmaking. Here's the problem:

- The Joker is still completely inconsequential to the plot, even with the screentime he had left.
- WB marketed the **** out of the character.
- Everybody talked up how wild and crazy Leto was on set.
- Leto seemed largely aimless in the role, aggravated further by the weird psychedelic filter they used to highlight teh crazy.

So yeah. Poor scripting decisions that the director should have caught early on, misleading marketing, and an actor who felt like he was experimenting and improvising rather than delivering a performance. Those are the big culprits.

Having said all that, there could be five minutes of Joker footage left on the cutting room floor. There could be fifty minutes. Either way, I don't believe for one second that a great Joker performance exists somewhere in the editing rooms at WB. Even if they had restored all of Leto's footage, I figure it'd have simply been more of what we've already seen. And honestly, based on what we've seen, I'm glad they saw fit to spare us.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Everyone's so quick to jump on the editing being an issue here.

Could Leto's overall performance have been the victim of poor editing? Sure. But I'd say these are just as likely.

1) The scenes left on the editing floor contributed nothing to the plot, even moreso than what was actually left in. Frankly, his involvement in the film just barely services the plot as is. The Joker could have been written out of the film completely with little-to-no consequence. What does one extra second of him slapping Harley or him convincing Monster T to kill himself (LOL) really contribute, besides more screentime for the sake of it?

2) The cut Joker footage simply wasn't any good (per test audiences), and Ayer picked the material that was actually serviceable. As much as people may not want to admit this, it could have simply been a bad performance all around, and what we see in the film (both the theatrical and extended cuts) is the best of what they had.

Ultimately, the script was more at fault than the editing methinks, because Leto was given the task of playing a character that really had no business being in the film as written. And I think Ayer realized that in the editing room. They shot all this Joker footage, only to cut the movie together and realize it didn't do **** for the plot at all. I actually think cutting the Joker down to a minimum was the smartest editing choice they could have made, from a narrative perspective. Cutting excess fat is responsible filmmaking. Here's the problem:

- The Joker is still completely inconsequential to the plot, even with the screentime he had left.
- WB marketed the **** out of the character.
- Everybody talked up how wild and crazy Leto was on set.
- Leto seemed largely aimless in the role, aggravated further by the weird psychedelic filter they used to highlight teh crazy.

So yeah. Poor scripting decisions that the director should have caught early on, misleading marketing, and an actor who felt more like he was experimenting and improvising rather than delivering a performance. Those are the big culprits.

Having said all that, there could be five minutes of Joker footage left on the cutting room floor. There could be fifty minutes. Either way, I don't believe for one second that a great Joker performance exists somewhere in the editing rooms at WB.

 

[Guts]

 

[KillerWolf]

Everyone's so quick to jump on the editing being an issue here.

Could Leto's overall performance have been the victim of poor editing? Sure. But I'd say these are just as likely.

1) The scenes left on the editing floor contributed nothing to the plot, even moreso than what was actually left in. Frankly, his involvement in the film just barely services the plot as is. The Joker could have been written out of the film completely with little-to-no consequence. What does one extra second of him slapping Harley or him convincing Monster T to kill himself (LOL) really contribute, besides more screentime for the sake of it?

2) The cut Joker footage simply wasn't any good (per test audiences), and Ayer picked the material that was actually serviceable. As much as people may not want to admit this, it could have simply been a bad performance all around, and what we see in the film (both the theatrical and extended cuts) is the best of what they had.

Ultimately, the script was more at fault than the editing methinks, because Leto was given the task of playing a character that really had no business being in the film as written. And I think Ayer realized that in the editing room. They shot all this Joker footage, only to cut the movie together and realize it didn't do **** for the plot at all. I actually think cutting the Joker down to a minimum was the smartest editing choice they could have made, from a narrative perspective. Cutting excess fat is responsible filmmaking. Here's the problem:

- The Joker is still completely inconsequential to the plot, even with the screentime he had left.
- WB marketed the **** out of the character.
- Everybody talked up how wild and crazy Leto was on set.
- Leto seemed largely aimless in the role, aggravated further by the weird psychedelic filter they used to highlight teh crazy.

So yeah. Poor scripting decisions that the director should have caught early on, misleading marketing, and an actor who felt like he was experimenting and improvising rather than delivering a performance. Those are the big culprits.

Having said all that, there could be five minutes of Joker footage left on the cutting room floor. There could be fifty minutes. Either way, I don't believe for one second that a great Joker performance exists somewhere in the editing rooms at WB. Even if they had restored all of Leto's footage, I figure it'd have simply been more of what we've already seen. And honestly, based on what we've seen, I'm glad they saw fit to spare us.

Oh, I'm not jumping solely on editing. Script is pretty bad and quite obviously rushed and it's true that Joker being simply there for the sake of Harley's character does make the character inconsequential to the plot. WB's editing or not, Ayer delivered a bad film for sure.

Still, thing is, they cut out Joker doing any actually "Jokery" stuff and as such it is annoying, especially since it is the only thing that remotely interests me in this lackluster film. So, yeah, while it wouldn't improve overall quality of the film nor would give some new perspective on Leto's performance, I'd like to see the character do things he is supposed to do instead of just saying few badly written lines and moping over Harley.

 

[Greens]

Still, thing is, they cut out Joker doing any actually "Jokery" stuff and as such it is annoying, especially since it is the only thing that remotely interests me in this lackluster film. So, yeah, while it wouldn't improve overall quality of the film nor would give some new perspective on Leto's performance, I'd like to see the character do things he is supposed to do instead of just saying few badly written lines and moping over Harley.

Leto needs a script that allows him to do those Jokery things. Some of the lines he got in this movie wouldn't have fared well with ANY actor. This is why I'm optimistic about someone else taking a crack at this character and bringing Leto back.

 

[Polux]

I do agree with the Joker limited screen time in the finished film being a positive; way I see it, it's a lose/lose situation...

1.- They could've keep the Joker's presence "implied" through Harley's flashbacks, just enough to establish that he's responsible for her creation, but keeping him in the shadows, like a presence or a boogeyman, something to tease us about what we'll see in the future (and that way, they wouldn't even have had to cast an actor yet).

2.- What I REALLY hoped they've gone for: Harley's arc through the movie is to break free from Joker's influence, so we see through her flashbacks her creation and their abusive relationship and the control he has over her, and the teams mission would be to assassinate the Joker because of McGuffin; turning the story into a "black-ops" story (what SS should be anyways, no end-of-the-world bologni) also explaining why Batman isn't on the Joker case; and of course, at the end Harley would break free from his influence and choose her teammates instead of the clown, that way we get the best of both worlds, Harley's true (abusive) relationship to the Joker seen through flashbacks, and her redemption and empowerment leading to what she'll be in the future: her own woman.

This is, the Joker is TOO big a fish, you either make him straight up the villian, or some faceless boogeyman presence; going middle of the road hurts his image...


Polux

 

[Polux]

To be fair, it's not hard to know when someone wants to come off as insane, "try-hards", for example, that club scene had Leto shouting "Honka-Honka" which was totally unnatural and forced by the script, there's insane, and then there's Jim Carrey insane. That was the only scene I had that impression, so you can't really blame people for having such thoughts.

If I was to agree to any "try-hard" moment, I guess it'd be the "honka-honka" moment; not that I find anything particularly wrong with the line (as I said before, there's nothing the Joker wouldn't say/do), but yeah, I guess there's something there in the delivery....just a split second of disconnect...I dunno...

I think something we can all (or most, this is the hype after all) agree, is that it all comes down to a matter of preference; I've said before that I think I know what Leto was going for with his performance, and certain performance/stylistic/characterization choices appeal to my personal sensitivities; also we need to keep in mind that an actor does a gazillion different takes of the same line if the director so requests, and some of'em will be great, some of'em will be ****...lemme tell you a little story: a long time ago I was doing this short film for a friend of mine, it was his university project and he was working with his classmates, I was playing a junkie having an "epiphany" and seeing himself as a preacher, and in this one scene I saw myself as the preacher and I'm supposed to have a reaction; now, this group was highly unorganized and it's fair to say there wasn't "A" director but everyone wanted to direct, so one of the guys comes to me and asks me to do it this way (the most over the top, shallow, cliche reaction you can imagine), I go to my friend and told him that was terrible, that I didn't want to do it like that because it'd make my performance (and me, of course) look terrible, after much back and forth, we agree to shot the scene different ways, so I try a few variations of it, but the other guy still wanted to have me fall to the ground and have my eyes pop out and open my mouth like a pornstar and all of that...finaly I do it, and then I begged the whole team to please not use that take because it was terrible and I couldn't understand why no one would see it/say anything about it....they ended up using that take...

Or I guess an example that's more relevant, the way, WAY superior "hurt ya really...REALLY bad..." seen in the trailer as opposed to the one used in the movie (I guess I could've gone with that example to begin with....guess I just wanted to share my tragic story.... )


Polux

 

[Polux]

That helicopter scene is just natural Joker. "Professor..." The way Jared says it it's corny and I legitimately chuckled by the split second delivered line.

This kind of **** is something that lacked in the movie. Joker 'Jokering'.

Agreed x100000


Polux

 

[Rodrigo90]

It really is a mixed bag for me...

There's some scenes I like with him, then there's others that I don't...

The Arkham scene, where he's about to torture Harley, that was a terrific performance (each take).
The club scene... that was terrible, and I blame the script for that, not Leto. Ayer wrote and directed that scene, and he didn't think for one moment, "That was god-awful, I'll do another take."
But you couldn't! Because no matter what Leto could've done, there's no way he could've avoided those written moments that required him to jump up and go "Honka honka!"

I see these moments of potential and greatness from Leto, then they're washed away by an obviously bad script.

Overall, I think he seriously does need a better script - a script that requires him to be a little less of Ayer's "Jim Carrey", and better direction suggestions from Affleck.

 

[K-Rayner05]

Honka honka

 

[Boom]

"Honka honka" is one of those things where an actor needs to break rank and tell the director, "This is ****ing stupid. I'm not saying that."

 

[The Joker]

Everyone's so quick to jump on the editing being an issue here.

Could Leto's overall performance have been the victim of poor editing? Sure. But I'd say these are just as likely.

1) The scenes left on the editing floor contributed nothing to the plot, even moreso than what was actually left in. Frankly, his involvement in the film just barely services the plot as is. The Joker could have been written out of the film completely with little-to-no consequence. What does one extra second of him slapping Harley or him convincing Monster T to kill himself (LOL) really contribute, besides more screentime for the sake of it?

2) The cut Joker footage simply wasn't any good (per test audiences), and Ayer picked the material that was actually serviceable. As much as people may not want to admit this, it could have simply been a bad performance all around, and what we see in the film (both the theatrical and extended cuts) is the best of what they had.

Ultimately, the script was more at fault than the editing methinks, because Leto was given the task of playing a character that really had no business being in the film as written. And I think Ayer realized that in the editing room. They shot all this Joker footage, only to cut the movie together and realize it didn't do **** for the plot at all. I actually think cutting the Joker down to a minimum was the smartest editing choice they could have made, from a narrative perspective. Cutting excess fat is responsible filmmaking. Here's the problem:

- The Joker is still completely inconsequential to the plot, even with the screentime he had left.
- WB marketed the **** out of the character.
- Everybody talked up how wild and crazy Leto was on set.
- Leto seemed largely aimless in the role, aggravated further by the weird psychedelic filter they used to highlight teh crazy.

So yeah. Poor scripting decisions that the director should have caught early on, misleading marketing, and an actor who felt like he was experimenting and improvising rather than delivering a performance. Those are the big culprits.

Having said all that, there could be five minutes of Joker footage left on the cutting room floor. There could be fifty minutes. Either way, I don't believe for one second that a great Joker performance exists somewhere in the editing rooms at WB. Even if they had restored all of Leto's footage, I figure it'd have simply been more of what we've already seen. And honestly, based on what we've seen, I'm glad they saw fit to spare us.

Hear hear

 

[Rodrigo90]

"Honka honka" is one of those things where an actor needs to break rank and tell the director, "This is ****ing stupid. I'm not saying that."

I bet he wish he had now

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I can see why Leto was so frustrated with this whole film in general. He gets asked to play an iconic character, probably in the top 3 most recognizable villains of all time and the script he was given didn't really give him much to do.

The extended cut did nothing for me either, and I felt the added Joker bits were either not that great or really didn't need to be in the film (motorcycle chase). Watching it only frustrated me more, which is an exact 180 compared to watching the extended edition of DOJ.

 

[Wildcard]

The motorcycle chase makes sense for being there, considering that considering the attires present it likely takes place right before the chemical bath sequence. So, with that factored in, it definitely fits.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[KillerWolf]

Leto needs a script that allows him to do those Jokery things. Some of the lines he got in this movie wouldn't have fared well with ANY actor. This is why I'm optimistic about someone else taking a crack at this character and bringing Leto back.

Yeah, I'm certainly not writing him off. I think he can do well with better script and stronger direction.

It really is a mixed bag for me...

There's some scenes I like with him, then there's others that I don't...

The Arkham scene, where he's about to torture Harley, that was a terrific performance (each take).
The club scene... that was terrible, and I blame the script for that, not Leto. Ayer wrote and directed that scene, and he didn't think for one moment, "That was god-awful, I'll do another take."
But you couldn't! Because no matter what Leto could've done, there's no way he could've avoided those written moments that required him to jump up and go "Honka honka!"

I see these moments of potential and greatness from Leto, then they're washed away by an obviously bad script.

Overall, I think he seriously does need a better script - a script that requires him to be a little less of Ayer's "Jim Carrey", and better direction suggestions from Affleck.

Unless it's an ad-libbed line.
In which case, we have a bigger problem here.

But it's pretty much the same here with it being a mixed bag... club scene annoys the hell out of me, I like motorcycle chase one from extended cut, then "Ace Chemicals one annoys me some more, etc.
I also don't appreciate much some of his antics, like his mouth hanging open after finishing a sentence and like...

By the way, am I the only one who thinks he sounds a bit like a southern dandy when he says "I wouldn't want you to break those perfect porcelain-capped teeth"? Not being American, I might have a wrong impression as to how that accent should sound like, so I've been wondering about this.

 

[Ivan Drago]

I hate when people say it's not fair to judge Leto's joker because he didn't have more screen time.

I could take pretty much any scene from Ledger or BTAS and sell somebody on the joker. A single scene.

Hell, I've never even watched Gotham and that scene about the mother reveal sold me on the joker there.

Leto had multiple opportunities to do this and he failed each time. It has nothing to do with the amount of time he was given, because for a character like Joker, he steals every scene he's in regardless.