Jared Leto IS The Joker - Part 9

[AnneFan]

Would Arkham Asylum doctors allow the Joker to wear metal grillz?

I don't think he's wearing them per se, but they're now his teeth.

 

[godisawesome]

I think Batman being actually insane would damper the Joker's enthusiasm for needling him to the point of breaking, and I think they both work better in a world traumatizing enough that Batman's creation is a rational act; a natural evolution of a world where "masks" and "freaks" are already appearing (I.e., the Red Hood Gang, Ra's Al Ghul, The Reaper, even "The Roman" in his more legendary persona.)

It's kind of like how I prefer the way Judd Winick explained Batman's refusal to execute any opponent, even Joker: Batman is sane, and rational, but if he starts killing anyone intentionally, he's going to start becoming irrational and eventually insane. As someone else put it, Batman has made the decision to respect and uphold the rights of the people to determine the fates of their criminals; it's not his responsibility to right to kill people, because it's ours.

I mean, if they make Injustice 2, and if they want Batman to be the badguy in the next universe, they don't need to have Gotham blown up and Batman tricked into killing a pregnant Talia/Selina. They'd just have to reveal that one night, long ago, Batman killed Joker quietly and securely, maybe without even needing Joker to hurt anyone he cared about, then he just slowly but surely got worse.

 

[AnneFan]

Agreed. Batman is a sane individual navigating an insane world. The Joker wants Batman to lose control. To become like him. That's what he would consider his ultimate victory. Batman is driven by tragedy, like we assume the Joker is, but they went down different paths. Arkham Knight actually portrayed this pretty well, even though The Joker was dead. It's all a battle of the mind and ideologies. The spirit of what each character stands for. The Joker is the devil tempting you to give into chaos.

 

[batman1]

I am unsure why you asked this by way of a response to one of my posts. Is it your inference that I do not "get" The Joker?

Not at all. And sorry I can see why it would seem like that. But from a lot fo other posts it seems a lot of folks don't understand the rockstardum of the Joker! You seem like you do and even though it wasn't limited to anyone I saw you respond to others and just happen to click on you post to respond. Sorry about that. I thought maybe you could share some insight. Other folks opinions on the comics are interesting to me.

 

[batman1]

Agreed. Batman is a sane individual navigating an insane world. The Joker wants Batman to lose control. To become like him. That's what he would consider his ultimate victory. Batman is driven by tragedy, like we assume the Joker is, but they went down different paths. Arkham Knight actually portrayed this pretty well, even though The Joker was dead. It's all a battle of the mind and ideologies. The spirit of what each character stands for. The Joker is the devil tempting you to give into chaos.

See I think bats is insane but he won't kill. I do feel if he kills it'll drive him even more nuts though. He and Joker are the same. But like twins one responded one way to stimuli and the other another way. But they are both insane.

 

[TDK elbowstrike]

For those who think Batman is completely sane, do you think he possess an unhealthy amount of paranoia?

I ask because at certain times, he seems almost hyper-paranoid. I myself am uncertain whether I believe he is completely sane or not.

Although some things Bruce does, such as creating Batman Zur-En-Arrh during RIP as a failsafe for mental tampering, that make me think he must just operate on a different plane altogether.

 

[batman1]

Batman is at least bipolar.

 

[Boom]

Yes. They're not really grills though.

Why would they though?

 

[Majik1387]

Why would they though?

Because they are his teeth. They are not removable grills or anything, they are pretty much crowns and fillings.

 

[AnneFan]

See I think bats is insane but he won't kill. I do feel if he kills it'll drive him even more nuts though. He and Joker are the same. But like twins one responded one way to stimuli and the other another way. But they are both insane.

I don't think an insane Batman is all that interesting, to be honest. To me, someone walking the tightrope is. Can Batman be a brooding loner and a control freak. Absolutely. But to call him insane is a step too far. He's of a sound mind with good intentions, regardless of his methods. Batman is a brick wall of mental strength when dealing with the true crazies.

 

[batman1]

If someone killed The Joker because they lost control over something he did, that might be considered a "normal" human response, but that individual would most likely plead temporary insanity in their defense (i.e. they had no conscious awareness toward what they were doing as a result of severe emotional distress). Because in civilized society, there is nothing normal about taking another life. There are always conditions and circumstances taken into consideration when it comes to intent - some defensive, others malicious, and others still emotional-driven.

The fact that Batman is able to maintain control and self-restraint in the face of horrific deeds is a testament to his psychological and emotional strength.

I never thought about this before. But since it isn't normal to not snap under all Joker does to him over the years then I would say he is indeed nuts and is trying to overdo it to show he's sane. I mean batman will do anything but kill. His mentality is to break bones. paralyze, etc. He will take you within an inch of death and then stop. So he is pretty screwed up. This is an interesting topic.

 

[Boom]

I simply disagree with that assessment.

It's as I said before. The fact that he cannot and will not allow himself to be pushed over that line is a testament to strength, not mental illness. With his training, it'd be absurdly easy for him to do so. But he doesn't take "the emergency exit," as The Joker put it.

 

[Naked Shia]

I think Batman being actually insane would damper the Joker's enthusiasm for needling him to the point of breaking, and I think they both work better in a world traumatizing enough that Batman's creation is a rational act; a natural evolution of a world where "masks" and "freaks" are already appearing (I.e., the Red Hood Gang, Ra's Al Ghul, The Reaper, even "The Roman" in his more legendary persona.)

It's kind of like how I prefer the way Judd Winick explained Batman's refusal to execute any opponent, even Joker: Batman is sane, and rational, but if he starts killing anyone intentionally, he's going to start becoming irrational and eventually insane. As someone else put it, Batman has made the decision to respect and uphold the rights of the people to determine the fates of their criminals; it's not his responsibility to right to kill people, because it's ours.

I mean, if they make Injustice 2, and if they want Batman to be the badguy in the next universe, they don't need to have Gotham blown up and Batman tricked into killing a pregnant Talia/Selina. They'd just have to reveal that one night, long ago, Batman killed Joker quietly and securely, maybe without even needing Joker to hurt anyone he cared about, then he just slowly but surely got worse.

Agreed. Batman is a sane individual navigating an insane world. The Joker wants Batman to lose control. To become like him. That's what he would consider his ultimate victory. Batman is driven by tragedy, like we assume the Joker is, but they went down different paths. Arkham Knight actually portrayed this pretty well, even though The Joker was dead. It's all a battle of the mind and ideologies. The spirit of what each character stands for. The Joker is the devil tempting you to give into chaos.

I don't think an insane Batman is all that interesting, to be honest. To me, someone walking the tightrope is. Can Batman be a brooding loner and a control freak. Absolutely. But to call him insane is a step too far. He's of a sound mind with good intentions, regardless of his methods. Batman is a brick wall of mental strength when dealing with the true crazies.

I simply disagree with that assessment.

It's as I said before. The fact that he cannot and will not allow himself to be pushed over that line is a testament to strength, not mental illness. With his training, it'd be absurdly easy for him to do so. But he doesn't take "the emergency exit," as The Joker put it.

Great posts.

Not to mention the idea that Batman was crazy is a really recent one, just like the idea that he could never stop being batman.

I like the way Morrison put it, when he says basically that Bruce would have became insance had he not became batman. Being batman is his way of dealing with the tragedy, in a sane way, by being altruistic and helping others.

Also, he may be a bit paranoid, but again, it's a testament to his sanity, because only someone insane wouldn't be paranoid in his line of work.

 

[regwec]

Not at all. And sorry I can see why it would seem like that. But from a lot fo other posts it seems a lot of folks don't understand the rockstardum of the Joker! You seem like you do and even though it wasn't limited to anyone I saw you respond to others and just happen to click on you post to respond. Sorry about that. I thought maybe you could share some insight. Other folks opinions on the comics are interesting to me.

Understood.

I actually think efforts to analyse The Joker as a real human being are futile, because he simply isn't written that way. He is, in a sense, a classic comicbook superman (small "s") in that he has been the victim of some great injury from which he has derived no detriment and has instead been strengthened. With The Joker, however, this occurs purely in the psychological sphere, where he is completely invulnerable. His "insanity" is not of a type that we would usually recognise, because his cognitive abilities or emotional intelligence are completely unimpaired by his sadism or his lack of empathy. Even these are subordinate to his intelligence: he doesn't need to murder people in the way that Zsasz does; he appears to be able to sit on his hands calmly enough and await the best opportunity. He is also almost entirely without fear. I think, in essence, he only really has a tight trio of emotions- cruelty, narcissism, and disappointment (which is the most he suffers when his schemes are thwarted). The mirthful cackling seems to be a product of the first two.

I never thought about this before. But since it isn't normal to not snap under all Joker does to him over the years then I would say he is indeed nuts and is trying to overdo it to show he's sane. I mean batman will do anything but kill. His mentality is to break bones. paralyze, etc. He will take you within an inch of death and then stop. So he is pretty screwed up. This is an interesting topic.

I think that is a rational, choice however. Batman usually uses violence as a means to an ends. When he goes too far, it is usually a rational manifestation of rage.

 

[DeadStroke]

 

[Kane52630]

 

[The Endless]

Batman isn't insane. Only a very superficial reading of seventy years' worth of comics would suggest that he was. In what way is his cognitive judgment impaired? The same can be said of The Joker, excepting the fact that he is obviously psychopathic.

Batman isn't insane. But he clearly has psychological issues.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I have mild OCD and possibly aspergers...am I insane?

 

[Guts]

Crazy town banana pants.

 

[The Shape]

Like I said before, the word "insane" is primarily used as a legal term and not a medical one.

If Bruce Wayne's secret life as Batman was somehow exposed to the public and he was to be put on trial for his "crimes" and laws he's broken, I highly doubt that his defense lawyer would ever be able to successfully use insanity as a defense for his criminal acts. Reason being is that everything he's done has been methodical, strategical, prepared, and planned. This would be well-documented by the time he spent traveling the world and training his mind/body, the base of operations he's built, the technology he's created and used to aid him in his cause, the long-term strategy he developed to execute his plans, the extensive files he has kept throughout the years, and the level of control and decisiveness that he's had over his actions over an extended period of time.

Any "mental illness" he might have has not prevented him from being in control of his actions and distinguishing "right" from "wrong". An investigation into Bruce's history of being Batman will show that he knowingly and purposefully broke the law by acting as a vigilante who operated outside the boundaries of criminal laws, and that he had specific reasons for taking on this crusade outside of extremist, anti-government views or wanting to simply cause violence and mayhem. Bruce Wayne can and has technically acted rationally throughout the other part of his life in his Bruce Wayne persona.

I wouldn't classify The Joker as insane, either. However, a defense lawyer would have a much easier time making a case for an insanity plea simply because The Joker doesn't necessarily have a specific MO and many of his crimes have been seemingly random and executed without reason or purpose. A good lawyer might be able to draw links between the various mental illnesses The Joker could be perceived as having and the crimes he has committed, ultimately making the case that he is not in control of his actions and therefore cannot distinguish right from wrong (although we know he can).

However, even that might be tough because many of his crimes have been seemingly well-planned and intentional, despite them being random and chaotic. As we recently saw, the Colorado movie theater killer was not granted the insanity plea and instead charged with mass-murder.

 

[Boom]

Oh, they finally convicted that ****head?

 

[Rodrigo90]

Crazy town banana pants.

I wanted to use the "That's Me" phrase from that 90's show, Bailey Kipper's POV, but I couldn't find it. So I'll make do with this -

- 'Cos I'm qwazee!

 

[regwec]

Rodrigo, this has nothing to do with the conditions that you have listed, but...technically, you're a loon.

 

[The Shape]

Oh, they finally convicted that ****head?

Yup. Now deliberating on death penalty, I think.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Rodrigo, this has nothing to do with the conditions that you have listed, but...technically, you're a loon.