Jean/Logan: The Evolving Relationship.

[undomiel]

I love an underdog too and used to love Logan when he was one. But he isn't anymore is he? Now he's like that "give him enough prep time and he can beat anyone" DC hero. He's no longer the short odd-looking hairball with a foul temperament and tortured soul looking for redemption of wrongs he barely remembers. Now he's the tall good looking leader with an adamantium ego! ... bah I don't even want to talk about this anymore, now Im all upset and nostalgic

lol...I meant that Logan is the underdog on these boards! Everyone (with a few exceptions) seems to hate him. And I didn't mean to upset you, but I do have to disagree that Wolverine's not the underdog in the movies. He is the tragic hero. He's born to suffer, he is suffering, and he will continue to suffer some more. I don't think anything's really going to work out for him. Even if Jean does finally admit her hidden attraction to him, she's going to go all Dark Phoenix on him and break his heart, which is not covered with adamantium and is very vulnerable, far more than the Wolverine cares to let on.

And the Wolverine is noble. Most of you seem to focus only on the surface -- the tough-guy thing is partly just a front that he puts up to protect himself, and it's partly who he is -- very masculine, utterly direct and unconcerned with what others think of him. But in the end, he always makes the right choice and is very self-sacrificing. (Remember how he rescued Rogue at great risk to his own life -- he would have died to save her.) I like how his rough edges conceal a more tender heart. You have to consider what he's been through -- so much pain and rejection, being used and manipulated by others more powerful than he is -- this is why he's so edgy and tough, not because he's just some macho jerk. You can't expect a guy who's been through all that to be all trusting and sweet. Conversely, Scott's led a relatively sheltered life, protected, loved and mentored by Prof. X while Logan has been abandoned, alone and betrayed, left to fend for himself at a young age. Can you not see why I so sympathize with this guy?!

And the Wolverine is a natural leader. It is interesting how there are different styles of leadership, and how they play out in X-men. Cyclops is definitely more calm and level-headed, which is very important, but the Wolverine is their go-to guy, their clutch man. In medieval times, he would have been considered their champion knight, the Lancelot to Cyke's Arthur. (And, incidentally, there are some interesting love-triangle parallels going on with that story and this one.) He possesses tremendous raw courage and he takes initiative where others would hesitate. The Wolverine is, fundamentally, a survivor. Though he may lack finesse, his animal-survival instincts serve the X-men well.

So I think there are plenty of reasons why Jeannie should absolutely love this guy. And I think she does, in spite of herself. I'm not wishing her to be unfaithful to Scott, mind you -- but it does all make for a great forbidden-love story.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

lol...I meant that Logan is the underdog on these boards! Everyone (with a few exceptions) seems to hate him. And I didn't mean to upset you, but I do have to disagree that Wolverine's not the underdog in the movies. He is the tragic hero. He's born to suffer, he is suffering, and he will continue to suffer some more. I don't think anything's really going to work out for him. Even if Jean does finally admit her hidden attraction to him, she's going to go all Dark Phoenix on him and break his heart, which is not covered with adamantium and is very vulnerable, far more than the Wolverine cares to let on.

And the Wolverine is noble. Most of you seem to focus only on the surface -- the tough-guy thing is partly just a front that he puts up to protect himself, and it's partly who he is -- very masculine, utterly direct and unconcerned with what others think of him. But in the end, he always makes the right choice and is very self-sacrificing. (Remember how he rescued Rogue at great risk to his own life -- he would have died to save her.) I like how his rough edges conceal a more tender heart. You have to consider what he's been through -- so much pain and rejection, being used and manipulated by others more powerful than he is -- this is why he's so edgy and tough, not because he's just some macho jerk. You can't expect a guy who's been through all that to be all trusting and sweet. Conversely, Scott's led a relatively sheltered life, protected, loved and mentored by Prof. X while Logan has been abandoned, alone and betrayed, left to fend for himself at a young age. Can you not see why I so sympathize with this guy?!

And the Wolverine is a natural leader. It is interesting how there are different styles of leadership, and how they play out in X-men. Cyclops is definitely more calm and level-headed, which is very important, but the Wolverine is their go-to guy, their clutch man. In medieval times, he would have been considered their champion knight, the Lancelot to Cyke's Arthur. (And, incidentally, there are some interesting love-triangle parallels going on with that story and this one.) He possesses tremendous raw courage and he takes initiative where others would hesitate. The Wolverine is, fundamentally, a survivor. Though he may lack finesse, his animal-survival instincts serve the X-men well.

So I think there are plenty of reasons why Jeannie should absolutely love this guy. And I think she does, in spite of herself. I'm not wishing her to be unfaithful to Scott, mind you -- but it does all make for a great forbidden-love story.

Wow... that sounds so familiar...

Jean: Logan, we need you!! Your a natural leader...your a great help to us
Logan: NO! thats not it!
...

lol couldn't resist...

Jean: i've been dying a little bit each day since you back into my life...
Logan: damnit Jean... don't you dare get ur panties in a bunch. -rolls eyes-

 

[undomiel]

Uh...come again?

 

[WorthyStevens]

lol...I meant that Logan is the underdog on these boards! Everyone (with a few exceptions) seems to hate him. And I didn't mean to upset you, but I do have to disagree that Wolverine's not the underdog in the movies. He is the tragic hero. He's born to suffer, he is suffering, and he will continue to suffer some more. I don't think anything's really going to work out for him. Even if Jean does finally admit her hidden attraction to him, she's going to go all Dark Phoenix on him and break his heart, which is not covered with adamantium and is very vulnerable, far more than the Wolverine cares to let on.

And the Wolverine is noble. Most of you seem to focus only on the surface -- the tough-guy thing is partly just a front that he puts up to protect himself, and it's partly who he is -- very masculine, utterly direct and unconcerned with what others think of him. But in the end, he always makes the right choice and is very self-sacrificing. (Remember how he rescued Rogue at great risk to his own life -- he would have died to save her.) I like how his rough edges conceal a more tender heart. You have to consider what he's been through -- so much pain and rejection, being used and manipulated by others more powerful than he is -- this is why he's so edgy and tough, not because he's just some macho jerk. You can't expect a guy who's been through all that to be all trusting and sweet. Conversely, Scott's led a relatively sheltered life, protected, loved and mentored by Prof. X while Logan has been abandoned, alone and betrayed, left to fend for himself at a young age. Can you not see why I so sympathize with this guy?!

And the Wolverine is a natural leader. It is interesting how there are different styles of leadership, and how they play out in X-men. Cyclops is definitely more calm and level-headed, which is very important, but the Wolverine is their go-to guy, their clutch man. In medieval times, he would have been considered their champion knight, the Lancelot to Cyke's Arthur. (And, incidentally, there are some interesting love-triangle parallels going on with that story and this one.) He possesses tremendous raw courage and he takes initiative where others would hesitate. The Wolverine is, fundamentally, a survivor. Though he may lack finesse, his animal-survival instincts serve the X-men well.

So I think there are plenty of reasons why Jeannie should absolutely love this guy. And I think she does, in spite of herself. I'm not wishing her to be unfaithful to Scott, mind you -- but it does all make for a great forbidden-love story.

Logan's not a leader...

In hockey terms, he would be what's called an enforcer. While he's not the leader of the team, he acts to protect his teammates from harm, and isn't afraid to face anyone, bigger or smaller than him.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Uh...come again?

... NVM... I was...way over myself... I was in Star Wars mode... mauahahaha...

 

[undomiel]

Logan's not a leader...

In hockey terms, he would be what's called an enforcer. While he's not the leader of the team, he acts to protect his teammates from harm, and isn't afraid to face anyone, bigger or smaller than him.

No, sorry -- have to disagree on that point. Logan exhibits a particular style of leadership in the field. For example, in the first movie, when everyone else was trapped and didn't know what to do, Logan very quickly jumps into action (intiative-taking) and cuts through his own body to free himself (self-sacrificing) so he can then defeat Sabretooth and free his comrades. After that, it is Logan who comes up with the plan (decisive) and starts telling everyone what to do (commanding) so they can eventually rescue Rogue. He definitely leads. I agree that his leadership has not fully matured, partly because he was never fully committed to the X-men until the very end of X2, so it will be interesting to see how that all plays out in X3.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

hmmm watch the scene between him and Storm... before whats his face shows up asking for Dr. Jean Grey.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Unless I'm missing something, theres no indication scott was gonna choose emma.

There is. He tells Emma he's made a decision. Jean's death causes him too much grief; he abandons the school and Emma. Jean from the White Hot Room tells him: "Live, Scott. Live" These words ("words from the future") appear at the time of her death back in regular reality. That allows Scott to get over grief and once he does, he chooses what he would have without her death: Emma.

Otherwise, you have to say that he was going to choose Jean, but with her death he abandons the school. Then Jean mind-controls him into getting with Emma. But since nothing in the story even mentions mind-control, its not what happened unless you are already convinced it did. For that matter, any OOC appearance could possibly be mind control. Doesnt mean it is.

 

[undomiel]

hmmm watch the scene between him and Storm... before whats his face shows up asking for Dr. Jean Grey.

I've seen it. Not exactly sure what your point is. Care to clarify?

 

[CapBeerCino]

lol...I meant that Logan is the underdog on these boards! Everyone (with a few exceptions) seems to hate him.

Not the general public... And I dont think its Wolverine hate (I know I dont hate him) I think people dont agree with how a story about a team is pushed to the side on his account.

 

[Mike059jig]

I think people are mixing logan character with his overexposure..its a reason they came to not like him IMO..I don't hate wolverine but i don't dislike him..he just their..all the time and people got sick of it...

 

[Endeavor]

And I didn't mean to upset you, but I do have to disagree that Wolverine's not the underdog in the movies.

Don't worry it wasn't you that upset me, it was remembering Marvel's stupidity as I was typing my answer to you... And I wasn't talking about the Movies character, I was talking about comics Wolverine.

Conversely, Scott's led a relatively sheltered life, protected, loved and mentored by Prof. X while Logan has been abandoned, alone and betrayed, left to fend for himself at a young age. Can you not see why I so sympathize with this guy?!

Well since we are talking about the movies I have to ask you, how do you know this? We know very little about the X-Men before the time they met Wolverine in X1 and Scott particularly since he is one of the characters less explored. We know nothing of his pain, we don't know at what point in his life he joined the X-Men or what happened to him before hand. One could argue that given proper characterization he might have had an even worse time, since he does remember his past and at least Wolverine doesn't know all thats happened to him or that he has done (from his conversations with Stryker it's obvious he wasn't an angel so he's at least spared from remembering those he has wronged). And that there is also a source for the resentment you see towards Wolverine on here (in part). Because those of us who know and love the X-Men know that the other characters are being changed, butchered up and ignored in order to focus on Wolverine and 'glorify' him. So that pisses us off. It is unfair because it's not the character's fault, but rather the business men and women trying to make a buck by using what they think is the more marketable character, but hey we gotta take it out on somebody and Wolverine is there front and center.

nd the Wolverine is a natural leader. It is interesting how there are different styles of leadership, and how they play out in X-men. Cyclops is definitely more calm and level-headed, which is very important, but the Wolverine is their go-to guy, their clutch man. In medieval times, he would have been considered their champion knight, the Lancelot to Cyke's Arthur. (And, incidentally, there are some interesting love-triangle parallels going on with that story and this one.) He possesses tremendous raw courage and he takes initiative where others would hesitate. The Wolverine is, fundamentally, a survivor. Though he may lack finesse, his animal-survival instincts serve the X-men well.

I'm sorry but I think you contradicted yourself here, especially with the example you provided. Being a go-to guy, a survivor or courageous doesn't make anybody a 'natural leader'. A leader cannot be 'the loner', he/she can't be the one who looses his cool and 'wings' it. That's ok when you're doing things solo, but not when you're coordinating with several people, which a good leader is supposed to be able to do. Nobody is questioning Logan's value in a fight. He's good to have on your team, yes, but he's no leader (if he is to be portrayed as his true comics self), just like Lancelot wasn't a leader. I found it interesting that you used Lancelot as a comparison to validate Logan's leadership abilities since Lancelot isn't ever portrayed as the leader type, Arthur is. A valiant, passionate and fearless warrior, true, but not a leader.

 

[undomiel]

Don't worry it wasn't you that upset me, it was remembering Marvel's stupidity as I was typing my answer to you... And I wasn't talking about the Movies character, I was talking about comics Wolverine.

I'm glad to know I didn't upset you.

Well since we are talking about the movies I have to ask you, how do you know this? We know very little about the X-Men before the time they met Wolverine in X1 and Scott particularly since he is one of the characters less explored. We know nothing of his pain, we don't know at what point in his life he joined the X-Men or what happened to him before hand. One could argue that given proper characterization he might have had an even worse time, since he does remember his past

Ah, but Scott hasn't had a worse time of life, has he? How do I know this? Because if he had, you surely would have set me straight about it right away and not bothered with all of these suppositional questions! *undomiel winks and smiles* And we do know a little about these things from the movies; the more carefully one observes, the more one is able to piece together.

and at least Wolverine doesn't know all thats happened to him or that he has done (from his conversations with Stryker it's obvious he wasn't an angel so he's at least spared from remembering those he has wronged). And that there is also a source for the resentment you see towards Wolverine on here (in part). Because those of us who know and love the X-Men know that the other characters are being changed, butchered up and ignored in order to focus on Wolverine and 'glorify' him. So that pisses us off. It is unfair because it's not the character's fault, but rather the business men and women trying to make a buck by using what they think is the more marketable character, but hey we gotta take it out on somebody and Wolverine is there front and center.


I'm sorry but I think you contradicted yourself here, especially with the example you provided. Being a go-to guy, a survivor or courageous doesn't make anybody a 'natural leader'. A leader cannot be 'the loner', he/she can't be the one who looses his cool and 'wings' it.

I'm not saying he is the (one and only) leader of the X-men; I'm simply saying he possesses certain leadership characteristics. For example, he takes charge in a situation, sometimes by telling others what to do, and sometimes just by doing what needs to be done on the fly.

That's ok when you're doing things solo, but not when you're coordinating with several people, which a good leader is supposed to be able to do.

Umm.. what about my X1 example?

Nobody is questioning Logan's value in a fight. He's good to have on your team, yes, but he's no leader (if he is to be portrayed as his true comics self), just like Lancelot wasn't a leader. I found it interesting that you used Lancelot as a comparison to validate Logan's leadership abilities since Lancelot isn't ever portrayed as the leader type, Arthur is. A valiant, passionate and fearless warrior, true, but not a leader.

I'm no expert in Arthurian legend, but I do know that Lancelot was Arthur's champion and field commander. As in: the leader of his armies. It's a good example because what differs are their styles and places of leadership. Lancelot is a great warrior, very inspiring to his fellow soldiers in battle. He is an action leader. So he makes a great field commander. Arthur, on the other hand, is very wise and self-controlled. He is excellent at governing the people. Both things involve leadership, but different manifestations of it.

I think I wasn't clear enough in my original post about this. I believe Logan is developing as a leader. He's not completely arrived yet, but I do believe he has shown potential. I agree with you that commitment is the first step, which he indicated at the very end of X2. But just because Logan's a reluctant leader doesn't mean he's got no leadership skills at all. That's why I said X3 will be so interesting -- we'll see what happens and who leads whom.

 

[Endeavor]

Ah, but Scott hasn't had a worse time of life, has he? How do I know this? Because if he had, you surely would have set me straight about it right away and not bothered with all of these suppositional questions! *undomiel winks and smiles* And we do know a little about these things from the movies; the more carefully one observes, the more one is able to piece together.

I see your point better now and I agree that it will be interesting to see what develops with his character in X3, even though I would prefer to see other characters explored instead of him, such as Cyclops...
About what i quoted above, are we still talking about the movies only or were you also mixing in the comics? Also please share on what careful observation you have made that has given you insight on Cyclops' history in the movie-verse?

 

[freshandclean]

Anyone seen the new Jean/Logan TV Spot that's being discussed in the other thread?

 

[Endeavor]

Anyone seen the new Jean/Logan TV Spot that's being discussed in the other thread?

I think you're talking about a fan-made trailer. I believe DarknessOfDeath created it.

 

[freshandclean]

I think you're talking about a fan-made trailer. I believe DarknessOfDeath created it.

No, apparently it aired during the O.C.

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8690753&postcount=4483

 

[Endeavor]

Then I don't know

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

tsk tsk... ... tsk tsk.... Endeavor...ya like my video?

 

[Endeavor]

I wasn't able to see it DOD, there was a problem with the download page when I tried it

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

im sorry

 

[Endeavor]

Not your fault. FireFox fizzled on me

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Well in that case... its firefox... Try using IE...

 

[undomiel]

I see your point better now and I agree that it will be interesting to see what develops with his character in X3, even though I would prefer to see other characters explored instead of him, such as Cyclops...
About what i quoted above, are we still talking about the movies only or were you also mixing in the comics? Also please share on what careful observation you have made that has given you insight on Cyclops' history in the movie-verse?

Gladly. But it's been a while since I've seen the movies...hmmm...maybe I'll just have to watch them again! But I do remember Xavier explaining to Logan about the school, and he says that Cyclops, Storm and Jean were some of his first students. It gave me the impression they had been with him for a long time, especially since it was a "school for gifted youngsters". Also, when Scott is talking to the unconscious Xavier and promising he'll take care of the students if Xavier doesn't recover -- that showed me how close he was to the professor, and how he looked upon the professor as a mentor.

 

[Endeavor]

Gladly. But it's been a while since I've seen the movies...hmmm...maybe I'll just have to watch them again! But I do remember Xavier explaining to Logan about the school, and he says that Cyclops, Storm and Jean were some of his first students. It gave me the impression they had been with him for a long time, especially since it was a "school for gifted youngsters". Also, when Scott is talking to the unconscious Xavier and promising he'll take care of the students if Xavier doesn't recover -- that showed me how close he was to the professor, and how he looked upon the professor as a mentor.

Correct, I know those scenes well, but they're no proof of anything. There are no specifics mentioned there and therefore no way you can accurately say "Cyclops had an easy life"... you couldn't say that for Storm either. It's a passing comment that doesn't really give much information. The fact that Beast is now in the 3rd movie being introduced as another of the '1st students' is proof of just how broad and vague that statement in X1 was.