Lord of the Advice: Fellowship of the Relationship

[DV8]

And this is why being in a monogamous relationship is great - once you get yourselves checked out by the doc and get on BC, you can hit it bareback without worrying.

My friend that sleeps around, she never ever does it without a condom. You just don't know where people have been, especially if you might not remember who they are next week.

I couldn't agree more . . .

 

[Anita18]

Uhh.. I'm not going to ask how he'd use that as a reference point.. I'm really not..

It's called imagination.

But you have to know them (Or as I prefer to say- understand them) before you can trust them. I know of a woman who spent a lifetime with a man- had kids the whole nine- But she was blind to who he really was and she wound up paying a big price for it.

But trusting them enough for sex is really, really different that trusting them enough to have kids together. I mean, you really think you have to trust someone 10000% before you can do anything with them?

It's not about the taste- cause believe me- women don't taste like strawberries.. It's about relating to that person on a deeper level and sharing something special with them.

I've asked him and he says I don't taste like anything. He was fooling around with me one time and...yeah, I really don't taste like anything. I guess we're just lucky then?

******io isn't really all that special to us. He's not afraid to ask for what he wants and he asks for it very, very rarely. (I do say no more often than not, though, for reasons outlined below. ) Different strokes for different folks.

That's nice, but you're early in your relationship yet. Two or three years down the road and that could change.

But I do wish you the best in that regard.

Um, we're engaged? What, should we wait for another 3 years and see if we're still on the same page about it?

I used to do it more often before I got a really bad case of the stomach flu. Now it seems like random things can set off nausea and I just want to make sure things are enjoyable for both of us. ******io is not how we finish things, so to stop everything early on because I feel sick would be a downer, wouldn't it?

 

[Erzengel]

If I was single tomorrow, and there wasn't an expected level of intimacy by the 5th month, then unless there was some sort of extenuating circumstances or there is some unbelievable connection, then I'd probably be out.

 

[Dragon]

It's called imagination.

Yeah but why would... Nevermind..

But trusting them enough for sex is really, really different that trusting them enough to have kids together. I mean, you really think you have to trust someone 10000% before you can do anything with them?

Well- In the situation I referred to- it's the sex that was the problem. I'm not measuring the level of trust- I'm saying this- Value YOURSELF. I've seen many, many women get into bad spots because they so WANTED to trust a guy that they closed their eyes to the reality of the situation. They were willing to believe whatever the guy said because they put having this guy ahead of having themselves. I do believe that women have strong intuition- so when I responded to Angel-Faerie's post I was suggesting that maybe should look to her intuition to be sure it wasn't the sex, but the guy she might have been hesitant about. And BTW- the reverse is certainly true regarding guys trusting the wrong woman.

I've asked him and he says I don't taste like anything. He was fooling around with me one time and...yeah, I really don't taste like anything. I guess we're just lucky then?

Uh... Well.. I'll take your word on this particular taste-test..

******io isn't really all that special to us. He's not afraid to ask for what he wants and he asks for it very, very rarely. (I do say no more often than not, though, for reasons outlined below. ) Different strokes for different folks.

If you guys are sympatico on this, then that's great.

Um, we're engaged? What, should we wait for another 3 years and see if we're still on the same page about it?

No- just be aware that people change. It's a reality of life. The main reason I think that relationships collapse over time is that while we each change as individuals, people expect the relationship to remain the same. And all that leads to is growing apart. The relationship has to grow along with the people in it.

I used to do it more often before I got a really bad case of the stomach flu. Now it seems like random things can set off nausea and I just want to make sure things are enjoyable for both of us. ******io is not how we finish things, so to stop everything early on because I feel sick would be a downer, wouldn't it?

I'm certainly not suggesting you do anything you're uncomfortable with. At the same time, I know what you went through with the stomach flu- although in my case it was Veal and fried eggs that I couldn't stomach, Thank God. But I also know that that's also more of a mental thing. I can eat fried eggs all I want, now

 

[Anita18]

Well- In the situation I referred to- it's the sex that was the problem. I'm not measuring the level of trust- I'm saying this- Value YOURSELF. I've seen many, many women get into bad spots because they so WANTED to trust a guy that they closed their eyes to the reality of the situation. They were willing to believe whatever the guy said because they put having this guy ahead of having themselves. I do believe that women have strong intuition- so when I responded to Angel-Faerie's post I was suggesting that maybe should look to her intuition to be sure it wasn't the sex, but the guy she might have been hesitant about. And BTW- the reverse is certainly true regarding guys trusting the wrong woman.

No- just be aware that people change. It's a reality of life. The main reason I think that relationships collapse over time is that while we each change as individuals, people expect the relationship to remain the same. And all that leads to is growing apart. The relationship has to grow along with the people in it.

I think you've switched sex and relationships in both those cases.

Sex is just two people enjoying each other's bodies. It takes a certain amount of trust for that, insomuch as you know the guy isn't gonna rape you. But that's pretty much the end of that. Now, if you're expecting more seriously relationship stuff beyond the sex (like long-term plans, marriage, and kids), that's on you. But sex is just sex. Angel_Faerie and her bf are probably just immature and have yet to learn how to communicate openly and honestly, but it's a bit presumptuous to say that he's taking advantage of her or whatnot.

Yes, I'm aware that people change. I think we're at the age where we won't change super-drastically anymore - he's 30 and I'm 28. But obviously, we'll react accordingly to changing life scenarios and I'm ready to handle that. I just think ******io is waaaaay down the list of things to worry about relationship wise, when you're in it for the long-term. It's one of those "we'll get around to worrying about it when it actually becomes a problem" type things. There's a LOT of other things we should actively concern ourselves with before getting to that, if it even ever becomes an issue. Like, where are we going to live.

 

[Dragon]

I think you've switched sex and relationships in both those cases.

Not at all. To clarify- The woman's husband had been cheating on her for the entirety of their marriage. She wound up with cervical cancer and had to have a hysterictomy, so she could have no more children. Now, she and I spoke when she'd first got married, and she told me of her suspicions, but ultimately blew them off. I wasn't going to interfere in her marriage, so I didn't tell her that I was pretty sure he was cheating. But it caught up to her.

Sex is just two people enjoying each other's bodies.

Only for those who don't get it. Sex isn't just physical. It's mental and spiritual as well. And when you experience it on those levels it's truly a great thing.

It takes a certain amount of trust for that, insomuch as you know the guy isn't gonna rape you. But that's pretty much the end of that.

Really? Rape is the only thing that concerns you? Not infidelity, not disease? Not that people lie to each other all the time?

Now, if you're expecting more seriously relationship stuff beyond the sex (like long-term plans, marriage, and kids), that's on you. But sex is just sex.

Sex is just sex- like death is just death. It's the closest you can physically come to another person. It's the most intimate and vulnerable you can be physically with another person. It's a very important part of a relationship. That peole have come to think it's no big deal is not a good thing.

Angel_Faerie and her bf are probably just immature and have yet to learn how to communicate openly and honestly, but it's a bit presumptuous to say that he's taking advantage of her or whatnot.

I didn't say he was. I said she needs to examine her own feelings to be sure that she really trusts him. As for their being immature- Who says that being free-wheeling about sex makes a person mature? In fact, it's those who take it lightly who tend to be the most immature about it. And not too good at either.

Yes, I'm aware that people change. I think we're at the age where we won't change super-drastically anymore - he's 30 and I'm 28.

You're neglecting to consider alot. Having children will super-drastically change you and your relationship. Moving forward in your careers will change you. Aging will change you. Financial stress will change you. The changes in the world around you are going to change you.

But obviously, we'll react accordingly to changing life scenarios and I'm ready to handle that. I just think ******io is waaaaay down the list of things to worry about relationship wise, when you're in it for the long-term. It's one of those "we'll get around to worrying about it when it actually becomes a problem" type things. There's a LOT of other things we should actively concern ourselves with before getting to that, if it even ever becomes an issue. Like, where are we going to live.

Again, I'm not suggesting you do anything you're uncomfortable with. And if your relationship both sexually and romantically is great, then God bless ya. I'm only suggesting that you keep an open-mind.

 

[Anita18]

Not at all. To clarify- The woman's husband had been cheating on her for the entirety of their marriage. She wound up with cervical cancer and had to have a hysterictomy, so she could have no more children. Now, she and I spoke when she'd first got married, and she told me of her suspicions, but ultimately blew them off. I wasn't going to interfere in her marriage, so I didn't tell her that I was pretty sure he was cheating. But it caught up to her.

Yeah see, you should have clarified that before I went off on my schpiel.

But still, what you're describing is the consequences of sex in the light of serious relationship problems. Sex is still just sex when you're in the actual act.

The cheating and the STDs...that's a relationship issue, not a sex issue directly.

Only for those who don't get it. Sex isn't just physical. It's mental and spiritual as well. And when you experience it on those levels it's truly a great thing....

I didn't say he was. I said she needs to examine her own feelings to be sure that she really trusts him. As for their being immature- Who says that being free-wheeling about sex makes a person mature? In fact, it's those who take it lightly who tend to be the most immature about it. And not too good at either.

When did I say it wasn't? It CAN be for some people. It certainly is for me, which is why I only lost my virginity in my mid-20s to the man I'm going to marry. I've only slept with one person in my life, and I'm going to marry him. Do you even know the kind of person you're talking to?

But in general, for ALL people, sex is two (or more - again, I ain't judging!) people enjoying each other's bodies. That's the most general definition encompassing all kinds of consensual sex I can think of.

Even though my bf and I treat didn't treat sex very lightly (obviously since I had been with no one else previous), now it's something we can have fun with and it's not that serious anymore. It involves bodily fluids at any rate - there's gonna be some awkwardness and hilarity sometime.

I was referring to Angel_Faerie and her bf being relatively immature because of their inability to communicate comfortably, honestly, and openly. That's a real sign of maturity, when you're just able to say what you mean.

Really? Rape is the only thing that concerns you? Not infidelity, not disease? Not that people lie to each other all the time?

Again, those are RELATIONSHIP issues, they go beyond issues that pertain DIRECTLY to intercourse as an act.

If you don't trust that your partner is clean or monogamous, you use condoms during sex. Easy. Done. In fact I recommend everyone use condoms during sex until you are SURE your partner is clean and at least one of you is on BC. Like, absolutely "we've been together for a year and see no one else" kind of sure.

As you're probably going to point out, that doesn't guarantee that the other person is going to be truthful and that you won't be wrong. But sometimes you really do have to go with your gut and trust someone. You can't go through life thinking you can't trust anyone.

You're neglecting to consider alot. Having children will super-drastically change you and your relationship. Moving forward in your careers will change you. Aging will change you. Financial stress will change you. The changes in the world around you are going to change you.

Um, when didn't I say we weren't considering that? I was mostly saying that he wouldn't suddenly become Rick Santorum and order me back into the kitchen to make sandwiches, pregnant and barefoot.

Right now our immediate concern is where we're going to live. Because ya know, that's a huge concern and it's pretty immediate.

In fact, I was gonna take us to premarital counseling, but we live long-distance and first we need to figure out where we're going to live before we can make appointments with someone.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

So all this talk about sex, and how long one should wait, and all that - I'm starting to wonder if this "no sex until marriage" thing from my girlfriend is in fact the worst case scenario, and not just her being shy / timid / still building that comfort level with me.

Most people I've talked to about this have said it's probably a situation where she will open up to it at some point, but right now I don't know.

She's referred to her no sex "policy" as a "strict moral code" (which is weird considering she doesn't have any strong religious beliefs, and while coming from a strong conservative background, her immediate family isn't particularly religious), and anytime a sexual remark is made, she responds by saying something along the lines of "I've made it very clear where I stand on that". She doesn't respond in an angry or offended way, it's expressed in jest, but she does so now for even playful, flirty remarks.

It's also weird, because the one time I did try something to cop a feel, she did tell me she didn't give me permission to do that, but also that she'd be more offended if I didn't try anything.

She's a lot more playful and has a much better sense of humor about sex with her friends, but she closes it off a bit more to me.

Again, I'm not after sex at the moment, it's only been a month, but it's incredibly frustrating for me to feel like I'm crossing all sorts of boundaries by making any kind of physical move, or flirty remark. I haven't exactly brought it up yet, because I haven't figured out exactly how to bring this up to her without being some pushy dude that comes off as only in it for the sex. She makes remarks like "I'm more than just a pair of breasts", or "I'm more than just a sex object", or remarks along those lines, to which I immediately respond with something like "You're right, you're not", and tell her the non sexual things that I like about her, but I'm always sure to include something like "but that is one of the things I am attracted to"...

I'm not going to call it a dealbreaker yet, because it is still early, and the conversation hasn't really been had to see if some kind of compromise can be come to, but I feel (and I would safely say that most in this thread agree with me) that the physical element of the relationship (whether it's sex, fooling around, kissing, or even just cuddling) is equally important to everything else. As I've posted in this thread before, another friend put it as "she needs to figure out what you need from the relationship, and learn how to give that to you" - and this is a very conservative, religious girl who agrees with me that my girlfriend needs to be more physically intimate with me (though she doesn't agree about the pre-marital sex thing), but it's starting to feel like I have to play by all of her "hands off" rules, and not expect anything in return.

I really hope this is something that just needs a sit down conversation to resolve, because I promise, in every other area, the relationship is perfect to this point. And she's not totally anti-physical, there is definitely a physical dynamic to our relationship, and I think she's starting to get that I'm wanting to take that farther, and she's even assured me that while she moves slow, she is going to open up to me more, and come to me for more of the physical stuff. But the sexual stuff seems so off limits to her, like it's some incredibly naughty, no no thing that I'm wrong for even wanting with her. Like I said, hopefully this can be talked about, and a mutual solution can be had that fulfills both of our needs, and I'm just making a bigger deal out of this than it really is (like I said, it's been only a month, and a part of me thinks I'm blowing her responses out of proportion when they really aren't meant as such), and so far, I have been able to talk to her about any other problems that have been going on in the relationship, and she's been responsive, and we've found a solution, but she's just been so adamant that she's "made it clear how she feels" about sex stuff.

 

[Anita18]

She's referred to her no sex "policy" as a "strict moral code" (which is weird considering she doesn't have any strong religious beliefs, and while coming from a strong conservative background, her immediate family isn't particularly religious), and anytime a sexual remark is made, she responds by saying something along the lines of "I've made it very clear where I stand on that". She doesn't respond in an angry or offended way, it's expressed in jest, but she does so now for even playful, flirty remarks.

It's also weird, because the one time I did try something to cop a feel, she did tell me she didn't give me permission to do that, but also that she'd be more offended if I didn't try anything.

She's a lot more playful and has a much better sense of humor about sex with her friends, but she closes it off a bit more to me.

It mostly sounds like she doesn't trust you yet, with that last part. The fact that she has to mention it, even in jest, every time you try to do something remotely sexual with her makes me think she's not as mature as you believe she is. I mean, who does that?

Again, I'm not after sex at the moment, it's only been a month, but it's incredibly frustrating for me to feel like I'm crossing all sorts of boundaries by making any kind of physical move, or flirty remark. I haven't exactly brought it up yet, because I haven't figured out exactly how to bring this up to her without being some pushy dude that comes off as only in it for the sex. She makes remarks like "I'm more than just a pair of breasts", or "I'm more than just a sex object", or remarks along those lines, to which I immediately respond with something like "You're right, you're not", and tell her the non sexual things that I like about her, but I'm always sure to include something like "but that is one of the things I am attracted to"...

Again, who does that?

If she's talking about it that often, I think she has underlying insecurities about how she believes men value her. If you really believe it, you wouldn't mention it out of the blue that much. You just go out and prove it.

Like I don't have to say to you guys I'm more than a sex object. I come here and post ridiculously brainy stuff and that's all the proof I need.

And she's not totally anti-physical, there is definitely a physical dynamic to our relationship, and I think she's starting to get that I'm wanting to take that farther, and she's even assured me that while she moves slow, she is going to open up to me more, and come to me for more of the physical stuff. But the sexual stuff seems so off limits to her, like it's some incredibly naughty, no no thing that I'm wrong for even wanting with her. Like I said, hopefully this can be talked about, and a mutual solution can be had that fulfills both of our needs, and I'm just making a bigger deal out of this than it really is (like I said, it's been only a month), but she's just been so adamant that she's "made it clear how she feels" about sex stuff.

But is she really sure that she's going to feel that way? I think it's disingenuous of her to promise you something she may not want to fulfill later. She's implying she might want more of the physical stuff, but has not said right out that she doesn't like sex, is afraid of sex, or that you have to marry her to get some.

The wishy-washy boundaries is also suspect. That she's upset for you trying to cop a feel while also feeling insulted if you didn't try? I hope you're game for a roller coaster, cause she doesn't sound like she knows what she wants at all. Whether you can make her happy is thus a coin toss.

As mentioned in my reply to Dragon, a sign of maturity is just coming out and saying what you mean. You notice how many elderly folks just up and say things in an uncomfortably frank (yet hilarious) manner? I'm talking about that. At that age, you realize life is too short for BS.

 

[The Squirrel]

Or she really does want to wait until marriage, and you could respect that. Or break up with her.

 

[Anita18]

Or be together for 5 years and she figures marriage wouldn't make a difference anyway and FINALLY lets you get some.

 

[Dragon]

Yeah see, you should have clarified that before I went off on my schpiel.

But still, what you're describing is the consequences of sex in the light of serious relationship problems. Sex is still just sex when you're in the actual act.

The cheating and the STDs...that's a relationship issue, not a sex issue directly.

It's not a relationship issue. It's a sex issue. The people this woman's husband got the disease from were just having sex with him. They weren't in a relationship. Or you can look at it from the flip-side- that no matter how casual the sex may be it is always a type of relationship. Either way- sex is never "just sex". It's like firing a gun- the bullet has to go somewhere, and there's going to be some kind of consequence, big or small.

When did I say it wasn't? It CAN be for some people. It certainly is for me, which is why I only lost my virginity in my mid-20s to the man I'm going to marry. I've only slept with one person in my life, and I'm going to marry him. Do you even know the kind of person you're talking to?

But in general, for ALL people, sex is two (or more - again, I ain't judging!) people enjoying each other's bodies. That's the most general definition encompassing all kinds of consensual sex I can think of.

Well the problem is, that folks are looking for the most general or simplistic way of approaching it. But in Angel-Faerie's case, it seems she wasn't. I could be wrong, but it's something that matters to her. And it should.

Look in the grander scheme of things- we as a society are getting dumber, more apathetic, more destructive, more wasteful and more cruel. Because in general we take things that should matter (not just sex) for granted. Because it's easier. Because our attention spans are growing shorter. Because we need instant gratification. The more instant, the better. Because it's too much work to value things and especially each other.

Even though my bf and I treat didn't treat sex very lightly (obviously since I had been with no one else previous), now it's something we can have fun with and it's not that serious anymore. It involves bodily fluids at any rate - there's gonna be some awkwardness and hilarity sometime.

That's cool.. Try juggling- it's increasing coordination

I was referring to Angel_Faerie and her bf being relatively immature because of their inability to communicate comfortably, honestly, and openly. That's a real sign of maturity, when you're just able to say what you mean.

And again since they can't yet relate to each other that might go back to my earlier point. That she doesn't feel a real sense of trust there.

But saying what you mean isn't necessarily a sign of maturity. A often child expresses exacty what they mean- but what that they express still reflects immaturity. Maturity is when you see beyond the immediate.

Granted, Angel-Faerie could be just scared of change or moving to another threshold in her life. Only she can really know this and she should explore her mind and spirit to find out what the truth is.

Again, those are RELATIONSHIP issues, they go beyond issues that pertain DIRECTLY to intercourse as an act.

I don't think you can separate the two. Again if sex is to closest you can get to a person, than it has an impact on you. We're constantly hearing about people, famous and not so- and how sexual abuse affected and changed their lives. And as we've both mentioned- the relationship itself has an affect on the sex act.

If you don't trust that your partner is clean or monogamous, you use condoms during sex. Easy. Done. In fact I recommend everyone use condoms during sex until you are SURE your partner is clean and at least one of you is on BC. Like, absolutely "we've been together for a year and see no one else" kind of sure.

How do you your partner isn't lying? Because in the case I referred to and too many others to count- that was the case.

As you're probably going to point out, that doesn't guarantee that the other person is going to be truthful and that you won't be wrong. But sometimes you really do have to go with your gut and trust someone. You can't go through life thinking you can't trust anyone.

I know this- If you look for the truth, you're going to find it. In all of the cases that I know of where peole were deceived- it was always because they didn't want to know the truth. They were afraid of it.

Um, when didn't I say we weren't considering that? I was mostly saying that he wouldn't suddenly become Rick Santorum and order me back into the kitchen to make sandwiches, pregnant and barefoot.

But the examples I gave are more likely the things that will end a marriage than a Santorum-transforum

Right now our immediate concern is where we're going to live. Because ya know, that's a huge concern and it's pretty immediate.

Very true. And can also be a great source of stress in a relationship.

In fact, I was gonna take us to premarital counseling, but we live long-distance and first we need to figure out where we're going to live before we can make appointments with someone.

LDR- I respect your courage.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

It mostly sounds like she doesn't trust you yet, with that last part. The fact that she has to mention it, even in jest, every time you try to do something remotely sexual with her makes me think she's not as mature as you believe she is. I mean, who does that?


Again, who does that?

If she's talking about it that often, I think she has underlying insecurities about how she believes men value her. If you really believe it, you wouldn't mention it out of the blue that much. You just go out and prove it.

Like I don't have to say to you guys I'm more than a sex object. I come here and post ridiculously brainy stuff and that's all the proof I need.


But is she really sure that she's going to feel that way? I think it's disingenuous of her to promise you something she may not want to fulfill later. She's implying she might want more of the physical stuff, but has not said right out that she doesn't like sex, is afraid of sex, or that you have to marry her to get some.

The wishy-washy boundaries is also suspect. That she's upset for you trying to cop a feel while also feeling insulted if you didn't try? I hope you're game for a roller coaster, cause she doesn't sound like she knows what she wants at all. Whether you can make her happy is thus a coin toss.

As mentioned in my reply to Dragon, a sign of maturity is just coming out and saying what you mean. You notice how many elderly folks just up and say things in an uncomfortably frank (yet hilarious) manner? I'm talking about that. At that age, you realize life is too short for BS.

Anita, you mentioned maturity, and I think that's a great point.

Basically, now that we've been together slightly over a month, and have spending more time together, I'm really starting to see her age. Specifically in the whole "sex" subject. It's not a complete turn off, but in many ways, yea it is.

As far as the insecurities thing goes, it's appropriate that you mention that too. She has told me (without giving details) that she has attracted a lot of creepers before, and that she's suspicious of most people (including her own family) - though she has made sure to tell me that she does trust me - and she told me about how her ex boyfriend didn't understand boundaries, and would do too much, at the wrong times, like trying to feel her up - while she was at work, and on camera no less where her boss would be able to see it - and didn't understand why that was inappropriate. So maybe a too touchy ex-boyfriend is why she has a hardline "no sex" policy with me? Maybe she's testing me? I don't know.

You stated once before on a related subject that if it's a trust issue, than can be overcome with time and effort. That is definitely work I am willing to put in. It's the "prude" thing you said can't be worked through, and I'm definitely hoping that it's not that.

In response to The Squirrel, you're right, I can respect it, or I can break up with her, and currently, I am not prepared to do the latter because as I said, despite frustrations and immaturity on a sexual level, I am happy with her on every other level. And I know that is not a popular opinion with some people here, but it's how I feel, and it's not an issue that I'm willing to break up with her over at this stage. Already, she has shown be emotional support through a very trying situation, she has been incredibly easy to talk to and understanding about pretty much anything (I haven't really touched this subject with her yet, not because I'm afraid she'll react bad, but because I know there's a delicate balance between coming correct, and putting too much pressure on her and making it worse), she's not 100% anti-physical, there is a definite physical element to our relationship even if I'd like it to be stronger, she has a great sense of humor (which does include a sexual sense of humor, but it's inconsistent), and so many other things.

I'm hoping that by talking to her about it we can get it out there in the open, and find a solution that both satisfies my desires for the relationship, as well as respects her wishes of wanting to wait. I mean ****, I'm almost 29, I'm still a virgin, what's waiting a little bit longer if in the long run, all aspects of the relationship will be strong and satisfied?

Of course, if this is going to be a problem even in the long run, then I won't be fully satisfied, and perhaps a different direction will need to be taken. But a month in, I'm not ready to go down that road yet. But I acknowledge that it may be a bridge I have to cross eventually.

 

[Dragon]

So all this talk about sex, and how long one should wait, and all that - I'm starting to wonder if this "no sex until marriage" thing from my girlfriend is in fact the worst case scenario, and not just her being shy / timid / still building that comfort level with me.

Most people I've talked to about this have said it's probably a situation where she will open up to it at some point, but right now I don't know.

She's referred to her no sex "policy" as a "strict moral code" (which is weird considering she doesn't have any strong religious beliefs, and while coming from a strong conservative background, her immediate family isn't particularly religious), and anytime a sexual remark is made, she responds by saying something along the lines of "I've made it very clear where I stand on that". She doesn't respond in an angry or offended way, it's expressed in jest, but she does so now for even playful, flirty remarks.

It's also weird, because the one time I did try something to cop a feel, she did tell me she didn't give me permission to do that, but also that she'd be more offended if I didn't try anything.

She's a lot more playful and has a much better sense of humor about sex with her friends, but she closes it off a bit more to me.

Again, I'm not after sex at the moment, it's only been a month, but it's incredibly frustrating for me to feel like I'm crossing all sorts of boundaries by making any kind of physical move, or flirty remark. I haven't exactly brought it up yet, because I haven't figured out exactly how to bring this up to her without being some pushy dude that comes off as only in it for the sex. She makes remarks like "I'm more than just a pair of breasts", or "I'm more than just a sex object", or remarks along those lines, to which I immediately respond with something like "You're right, you're not", and tell her the non sexual things that I like about her, but I'm always sure to include something like "but that is one of the things I am attracted to"...

I'm not going to call it a dealbreaker yet, because it is still early, and the conversation hasn't really been had to see if some kind of compromise can be come to, but I feel (and I would safely say that most in this thread agree with me) that the physical element of the relationship (whether it's sex, fooling around, kissing, or even just cuddling) is equally important to everything else. As I've posted in this thread before, another friend put it as "she needs to figure out what you need from the relationship, and learn how to give that to you" - and this is a very conservative, religious girl who agrees with me that my girlfriend needs to be more physically intimate with me (though she doesn't agree about the pre-marital sex thing), but it's starting to feel like I have to play by all of her "hands off" rules, and not expect anything in return.

I really hope this is something that just needs a sit down conversation to resolve, because I promise, in every other area, the relationship is perfect to this point. And she's not totally anti-physical, there is definitely a physical dynamic to our relationship, and I think she's starting to get that I'm wanting to take that farther, and she's even assured me that while she moves slow, she is going to open up to me more, and come to me for more of the physical stuff. But the sexual stuff seems so off limits to her, like it's some incredibly naughty, no no thing that I'm wrong for even wanting with her. Like I said, hopefully this can be talked about, and a mutual solution can be had that fulfills both of our needs, and I'm just making a bigger deal out of this than it really is (like I said, it's been only a month, and a part of me thinks I'm blowing her responses out of proportion when they really aren't meant as such), and so far, I have been able to talk to her about any other problems that have been going on in the relationship, and she's been responsive, and we've found a solution, but she's just been so adamant that she's "made it clear how she feels" about sex stuff.

Just curious- but why are you in a committed relationship with someone after just a month? Especially since you two differ on such a core part of the relationship issue?

And- how would she/you feel about you seeing other people while she figures things out?

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Just curious- but why are you in a committed relationship with someone after just a month? Especially since you two differ on such a core part of the relationship issue?

And- how would she/you feel about you seeing other people while she figures things out?

We've only been in the committed relationship for a month - although by your terms (apparently, I'm guessing), we did get into the relationship quickly after only dating for about 2 weeks.

I didn't realize just how strongly we differed on this issue until after we got into a committed relationship. When we were just dating, I knew that she wasn't the kind of girl that would just jump into the sack with me, and had my own assumptions that she was rather conservative sexually, possibly even a virgin, and even considered the possibility that she may be a "wait for marriage" type.

We are in a committed relationship together because of all the other areas that I talked about, and others that I didn't touch on. Except for her seemingly hardline "no sex" policy, every other element of the relationship has been what I want from a girlfriend - she's been emotionally supportive, easy to talk to, fun to be around, great sense of humor, huge nerd, intelligent and articulate, very strong work ethic, independent, shared political and religious views, shared ideas of long term life plans... I mean, virtually everything I'd look for from a girlfriend, she brings to the relationship.

The "no sex" thing in and of itself isn't so horrible, I'm totally content with not rushing into it, and waiting until we're both ready and the time is right, my frustration comes from her reaction to pretty much even the hint of sexuality. I can't touch her in a sexual way, I can't talk to her sexually, nothing. Maybe when I do bring it up, maybe she doesn't realize that I'm not trying to get into her pants at that very moment, I don't know, but I do feel that even if we're not having sex, well, I mean I still want to show my sexual attraction for her, even if it is just through some words or a touch. It doesn't mean that I need to grope her like a horny Jr. High Schooler everytime I'm alone with her, but when even a playful remark or grab of a boob or her butt is met with resistance (even if it is done playfully) that's definitely more than I was expecting, even if I was prepared for a girlfriend that was very conservative on the issue of sex.

And that's where I'm torn, wondering if this is stuff that will come naturally as she learns to trust me and become comfortable with me, and I'm just in for a wait, or if this is who she is, and always will be, and sex, and anything related to it, is only for people who are married, and even then she goes all Jinogua on me and says it's not meant for pleasure.

Again, I'm nowhere near wanting to break up with her, I'm just hoping there's a resolution to this that can make everyone involved happy. And maybe that resolution really is just patience, cuz as the friend I mentioned earlier pointed out, while we may have been in a relationship for a month, we've still only really known each other for roughly 6 weeks or so. We dated for just shy of 2 weeks before becoming official, and we've been a couple now for just over a month, so I guess more accurately we've known each other for about 2 months now. So maybe this is just me making a bigger deal out of it than it really is as well, in which case, I need to get myself back on track here, which was a good point I had one person mention to me, that perhaps it's just me being horny now that all of a sudden I have myself a real girlfriend for the first time in my life.

 

[WillardNation]

Is it so bad that I think sex should be something special, not just "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am"?

Yes.

If that part of the male anatomy tasted like chocolate, you bet I'd be all up on it. But it doesn't. It really doesn't, and pretending it does doesn't change that fact. At any rate, I'm a sugar fiend instead of a salt fiend, and if there's sugar in there, it's probably not the greatest symptom to have health-wise...

Tell him to eat lots of pineapple.

 

[Anita18]

It's not a relationship issue. It's a sex issue. The people this woman's husband got the disease from were just having sex with him. They weren't in a relationship. Or you can look at it from the flip-side- that no matter how casual the sex may be it is always a type of relationship. Either way- sex is never "just sex". It's like firing a gun- the bullet has to go somewhere, and there's going to be some kind of consequence, big or small.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the scope of sex. For me, the discussion of monogamy/STDs/relationships should happen WAY before sex, if it's something that concerns you. If you worry about STDs during the act of intercourse, there is something wrong. You should have had that discussion with your partner before bumping uglies.

And if you choose not to talk about it, you can always use condoms and not worry.

Coming to this conclusion involved knowing people who like casual sex. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing as long as all parties know what they're getting into, and act accordingly. But that's the thing - it's really all about consent. And giving consent implies trust.

As for that woman's husband, IMO it was absolutely a relationship issue. He didn't tell his wife he was sleeping around, and he didn't tell his partners he had a wife. In my view, communication issues are under the realm of the relationship issue umbrella.

Look in the grander scheme of things- we as a society are getting dumber, more apathetic, more destructive, more wasteful and more cruel. Because in general we take things that should matter (not just sex) for granted. Because it's easier. Because our attention spans are growing shorter. Because we need instant gratification. The more instant, the better. Because it's too much work to value things and especially each other.

Now, that really says more about you than about society. I know plenty of hippie lover artists who would counter all of those arguments.

We just hear about the bad stuff more because it's good entertainment. It sells, and that's why they keep feeding it to us.

But saying what you mean isn't necessarily a sign of maturity. A often child expresses exacty what they mean- but what that they express still reflects immaturity. Maturity is when you see beyond the immediate.

Sure a child expresses exactly what they mean, but they often don't understand what they mean in the first place.

I don't think you can separate the two. Again if sex is to closest you can get to a person, than it has an impact on you. We're constantly hearing about people, famous and not so- and how sexual abuse affected and changed their lives. And as we've both mentioned- the relationship itself has an affect on the sex act.

Sexual abuse is not sex the way we're discussing it here. It's rape. It's not consensual. And when one person doesn't/can't consent, all that stuff we've talked about goes right out the window. There is no relationship, there's only one person taking advantage of another.

How do you your partner isn't lying? Because in the case I referred to and too many others to count- that was the case.

You don't know. You just have to trust that they're good people and that they are teling the truth, and go with your gut on it. It's faith. Either that or you go through life never being able to trust anyone, which is an incredibly lonely and cynical existence. And not just in romance.

But the examples I gave are more likely the things that will end a marriage than a Santorum-transforum

Oh believe me, if he turned into Santorum I wouldn't be hesitating to leave for one second. "Sorry honey, I know I made this promise to go on the journey of life with you, but you are going down a path that I can't follow without a cyanide pill at the ready."

LDR- I respect your courage.

We've been at this for a while - it's not a big deal. But we're not the kind of people who need attention all the time. I mostly enjoy having someone in my corner rooting me on. He believes in me more than myself sometimes. Or my mother.

As far as the insecurities thing goes, it's appropriate that you mention that too. She has told me (without giving details) that she has attracted a lot of creepers before, and that she's suspicious of most people (including her own family) - though she has made sure to tell me that she does trust me - and she told me about how her ex boyfriend didn't understand boundaries, and would do too much, at the wrong times, like trying to feel her up - while she was at work, and on camera no less where her boss would be able to see it - and didn't understand why that was inappropriate. So maybe a too touchy ex-boyfriend is why she has a hardline "no sex" policy with me? Maybe she's testing me? I don't know.

You stated once before on a related subject that if it's a trust issue, than can be overcome with time and effort. That is definitely work I am willing to put in. It's the "prude" thing you said can't be worked through, and I'm definitely hoping that it's not that.

Oh yes, I remember that. If that really happened to her as you describe it, it's a combination of emotional trauma and immaturity. If her ex made her feel taken advantage of, it's something she has to work out. I mean, it's really not cool for a guy to touch a girl inappropriately when she's made it clear she doesn't want it, even if he's her bf. I think if she pushed for it, she could probably get a sexual assault charge on him. It's not something to take lightly.

At the same time, not all guys are like her ex-bf, and it's not fair to you to have her treat you like you're him.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Should I ask her about the ex-boyfriend? Is that an appropriate topic to bring up? She's never really talked too negatively about him (well, never really talked much about him period to be honest), and all I know is his name, a very brief mention of how long they were together, I've seen a picture of him that is like on her sister's Facebook page, and the mention that he tried to feel her up at work.

But outside of very brief, casual mentions of the fact that there was an ex-boyfriend, without the subject ever going much farther than that, there has never been any talk about our exes or past relationships. So, unless she's gathered it of her own intuition, she doesn't know that I'm a virgin, or that she's my first legitimate relationship, and I don't know why she broke it off with her ex, or if it was a generally good relationship with an ill advised groping session, or if he was a bad dude that treated her like a sex object that she didn't want to be treated as.

 

[Anita18]

Should I ask her about the ex-boyfriend? Is that an appropriate topic to bring up? She's never really talked too negatively about him (well, never really talked much about him period to be honest), and all I know is his name, a very brief mention of how long they were together, I've seen a picture of him that is like on her sister's Facebook page, and the mention that he tried to feel her up at work.

It doesn't really do any use to ask about him specifically. You could just bring it up with, "I don't feel like you're comfortable around me, even though I feel I've proven myself repeatedly that I respect you as a person. I just want to be trusted" and go from there.

It's not his actions specifically (especially if it's going to be retold one-sided from her), it's how she reacted to them and how it's possibly affecting her now. That's the answer you want. The bf doesn't really matter in this context.

But outside of very brief, casual mentions of the fact that there was an ex-boyfriend, without the subject ever going much farther than that, there has never been any talk about our exes or past relationships. So, unless she's gathered it of her own intuition, she doesn't know that I'm a virgin, or that she's my first legitimate relationship, and I don't know why she broke it off with her ex, or if it was a generally good relationship with an ill advised groping session, or if he was a bad dude that treated her like a sex object that she didn't want to be treated as.

Yeah, that could definitely change her view of you very significantly. She could assume that you're a horndog because you're so much older than her and probably get what you want.

It's obviously an assumption, but it's a common one about older people from younger people.

Either that or it scares her off, but you've been together for a month and everything else is great, so I doubt that will happen.

 

[Dragon]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the scope of sex. For me, the discussion of monogamy/STDs/relationships should happen WAY before sex, if it's something that concerns you. If you worry about STDs during the act of intercourse, there is something wrong. You should have had that discussion with your partner before bumping uglies.

In the case I mentioned they were married- so obviously they'd had the conversation. But he was untruthful in the conversation. And she was untruthful with herself about what was actually happening.

And if you choose not to talk about it, you can always use condoms and not worry.

Again the consequences about sex are not only physical. They're mental, emotonal, spiritual. You keep mentioning rape- that's a physical act- and doesn't involve a relationship at all- but the affects are far reaching, correct? The same with any sexual regardless of how casual. They define us and define our future interactions.

Coming to this conclusion involved knowing people who like casual sex. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing as long as all parties know what they're getting into, and act accordingly. But that's the thing - it's really all about consent. And giving consent implies trust.

If you were talking to people who like casual sex then I'm surprised that you'd come to that conclusion. Because they are the ones who are quickest to be dishonest.

As for that woman's husband, IMO it was absolutely a relationship issue. He didn't tell his wife he was sleeping around, and he didn't tell his partners he had a wife. In my view, communication issues are under the realm of the relationship issue umbrella.

Tell that to the thousands of people who ended up with diseases and unwanted pregnancies from casual sex. Communication issues involve everyone you interact with. Friends, families, co-workers, acquaintances, as well as lovers.

Now, that really says more about you than about society. I know plenty of hippie lover artists who would counter all of those arguments.

And they'd be wrong, since I'm talking from actual numbers. More marriages fail now than ever before. 40% of Americans couldn't pass the test that foreigners have to take to become citizens. More than 70% of people tested are willing to inflict suffering on others- especially if guided by an authority figure. This is up from about 60% back in the 50's. Men and women are more likely than ever to both cheat in relationships, lie about it, and feel no remorse for lying.

We just hear about the bad stuff more because it's good entertainment. It sells, and that's why they keep feeding it to us.

Or we ignore it because it's too hard to face-up to it. Kind of like Climate Change.

Sure a child expresses exactly what they mean, but they often don't understand what they mean in the first place.

Neither do quite a large number of adults. Which is why as I mentioned, more marriages fail than ever before. They say things, but don't know what they really mean.

Sexual abuse is not sex the way we're discussing it here. It's rape. It's not consensual. And when one person doesn't/can't consent, all that stuff we've talked about goes right out the window. There is no relationship, there's only one person taking advantage of another.

But there are many people who consent to things that are still damaging to them-again because they fear losing the person more than standing up for themselves. I see teen pregnancies all the time- and there's no question that the sex was consentual. In fact many times the girls initiated it, believing it would force a commitment from the guy. In the overall I'm saying things are not always or even mostly- black and white.

You don't know. You just have to trust that they're good people and that they are teling the truth, and go with your gut on it. It's faith. Either that or you go through life never being able to trust anyone, which is an incredibly lonely and cynical existence. And not just in romance.

There are so many people who trusted and went on faith and wound up not only lonely but devasted. I'm saying it isn't about blind trust. It's about really seeking the truth of both yourself and the person you're involved with. And like I said, if you look for the truth, you'll find it.

Oh believe me, if he turned into Santorum I wouldn't be hesitating to leave for one second. "Sorry honey, I know I made this promise to go on the journey of life with you, but you are going down a path that I can't follow without a cyanide pill at the ready."


We've been at this for a while - it's not a big deal. But we're not the kind of people who need attention all the time. I mostly enjoy having someone in my corner rooting me on. He believes in me more than myself sometimes. Or my mother.

That's a great thing. May that last forever.

 

[Erzengel]

We've only been in the committed relationship for a month - although by your terms (apparently, I'm guessing), we did get into the relationship quickly after only dating for about 2 weeks.

I didn't realize just how strongly we differed on this issue until after we got into a committed relationship. When we were just dating, I knew that she wasn't the kind of girl that would just jump into the sack with me, and had my own assumptions that she was rather conservative sexually, possibly even a virgin, and even considered the possibility that she may be a "wait for marriage" type.

We are in a committed relationship together because of all the other areas that I talked about, and others that I didn't touch on. Except for her seemingly hardline "no sex" policy, every other element of the relationship has been what I want from a girlfriend - she's been emotionally supportive, easy to talk to, fun to be around, great sense of humor, huge nerd, intelligent and articulate, very strong work ethic, independent, shared political and religious views, shared ideas of long term life plans... I mean, virtually everything I'd look for from a girlfriend, she brings to the relationship.

The "no sex" thing in and of itself isn't so horrible, I'm totally content with not rushing into it, and waiting until we're both ready and the time is right, my frustration comes from her reaction to pretty much even the hint of sexuality. I can't touch her in a sexual way, I can't talk to her sexually, nothing. Maybe when I do bring it up, maybe she doesn't realize that I'm not trying to get into her pants at that very moment, I don't know, but I do feel that even if we're not having sex, well, I mean I still want to show my sexual attraction for her, even if it is just through some words or a touch. It doesn't mean that I need to grope her like a horny Jr. High Schooler everytime I'm alone with her, but when even a playful remark or grab of a boob or her butt is met with resistance (even if it is done playfully) that's definitely more than I was expecting, even if I was prepared for a girlfriend that was very conservative on the issue of sex.

And that's where I'm torn, wondering if this is stuff that will come naturally as she learns to trust me and become comfortable with me, and I'm just in for a wait, or if this is who she is, and always will be, and sex, and anything related to it, is only for people who are married, and even then she goes all Jinogua on me and says it's not meant for pleasure.

Again, I'm nowhere near wanting to break up with her, I'm just hoping there's a resolution to this that can make everyone involved happy. And maybe that resolution really is just patience, cuz as the friend I mentioned earlier pointed out, while we may have been in a relationship for a month, we've still only really known each other for roughly 6 weeks or so. We dated for just shy of 2 weeks before becoming official, and we've been a couple now for just over a month, so I guess more accurately we've known each other for about 2 months now. So maybe this is just me making a bigger deal out of it than it really is as well, in which case, I need to get myself back on track here, which was a good point I had one person mention to me, that perhaps it's just me being horny now that all of a sudden I have myself a real girlfriend for the first time in my life.

This is the issue I brought up about you and her being that much older than she is. At 28 you're in a different place than her at 21.

That being said, it doesn't sound like she's had ever "enjoyed" intimacy. Whether it was a strict upbringing or an ex-bf who was didn't care about her physical needs.

I mean sex is fun. Whomever says otherwise, either is not doing it right, doing it with the wrong person or has some sort of physical/emotional problem.

It's cool that you are being patient and what not because while it shouldn't be about sex, you're a 28 year old man. I know it's taken you a while to reach this point with a girl. It's like finally making it to Disney World, although hold on, you can't go on any of the rides.

Like we said before communication is key. However, if she keeps bringing up, well I'm more than just breasts, etc. it has to be reiterated that she is but sometimes love can be shown physically.

The last thing I think you'd want is to wait, a few years get married and learn that you aren't sexually compatible.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

You're right Erz, and that's essentially what I said when I told her "you're right, you are more than just a pair of breasts, but those are still 2 of the many things I like about you"

For what it's worth, that line did make her laugh.

 

[Godzilla2000]

I have to say that this has been nothing but unendless frustration, but imagine being in love with a single man, but for reasons unknown there's a wall between you and him preventing you from being together, and especially living happily together. It's the worst thing for two people to be in love but not be able to act upon their feelings. I guess even so someone can keep two people apart, but they can't stop the two people from being madly in love with each other. You can't force people to stop being in love.

You're right Erz, and that's essentially what I said when I told her "you're right, you are more than just a pair of breasts, but those are still 2 of the many things I like about you"

For what it's worth, that line did make her laugh.

On the flip side, would it be too forward for a woman like me to admire the male endowment of my boyfriend as well as his intelligence, if I had one? I mean attraction is about the whole package intangibly and physically isn't it?

 

[terry78]

Yes, telling a man you like his dick would shockingly keep his interest.

 

[Godzilla2000]

Yes, telling a man you like his dick would shockingly keep his interest.

Really? I'll have to file that away in my For Future Reference folder in my head.