The Dark Knight Rises Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

[Baneis8feettall]

Saying she gave a better performance than Katie Holmes isn't saying much. It's like saying Nolan is a better director than Michael Bay.

True. There is still such a gap between those actresses.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

Meh, she did fine as Miranda. The only thing she did a terrible job of was that death scene.

A lot of people are taking out their frustrations on her inclusion of the story and the fact that she "robbed" Bane of his importance out on Cotillard IMO.

I think so. How can she get criticized by having her french accent? That's extreme.

 

[WorthyStevens]

Marion had a dual role to pull off and she did great. Not only dual, but she had to portray Miranda as being a cover. As for Talia, her character had to stay objective to her task by not showing any feeling or emotion; very soldier-like in that aspect. Her and Bane were about to nuke the city, after all.

 

[Fudgie]

She was so boring as Tate. Anyone could have played that part to the level she did even Katie Holmes. The Talia stuff was weak. She dies after a few minutes, too. I didn't care about her.

One of the worst characters of the trilogy. The falefel guy was more convincing than her.

 

[WorthyStevens]

Not really. Marion has a very femme-fatale look to her. Not every actress has that.

 

[The Joker]

True. There is still such a gap between those actresses.

Outside these movies maybe. I don't think Marion was as bad as Katie was, but there wasn't a big gap between them in terms of acting within this franchise. Marion was sleep walking through the Tate stuff. The Talia reveal was so brief, as was her existence after being revealed as Talia that there's no reason why we should care about this character. Her laughable death scene is just the icing on the cake to a character who's removal from this movie would have been a huge bonus.

Regarding her accent, the point is Marion, unlike Christian, Gary, Heath etc is seemingly unable to lose her natural accent in any role she plays. That's the point regwec was making. She doesn't show a lot of range. She certainly didn't in this movie.

 

[mao]

Probably we watched different character if you think Miranda & Talia had same delivery. Also she is french, it's normal to have french accent. Michael Caine his own accent, Tom Hardy as well. They don't need to speak like an american.

I had no problem with her performance as Miranda, i liked the way she changed after revealing her trueself. Only thing bothers me her death scene.

I bought her as potential love interest Miranda but not as career woman/board member/CEO Miranda. She didn't seem assertive enough. I'm thinking someone like Joan Allen's Pamela Landy (from the Bourne movies) is probably more what I picture as a high powered career woman. Her reveal was good but not game changing. Her death scene was unfortunately execrable.

 

[BatLobster]

Not really. Marion has a very femme-fatale look to her. Not every actress has that.

Yep. Nothing exotic about Katie Holmes.

Also, people should stop thinking about her as Tate. Watch the film and just think of her as Talia all the way through. Just because she's wearing robes at the end doesn't mean she only has 5 minutes of screen time as Talia. All her actions in the film are done in the pursuit of her goals.

Even when she tries to tempt Bruce onto her plane...you have to believe that if Bruce had actually agreed, she would have used the opportunity to probably drug him on the flight and ship him off to The Pit.

The character is only boring when you think of her as Miranda Tate.

 

[The Joker]

The character is only boring when you think of her as Miranda Tate.

That's who she is for 95% of her screen time. You think it makes those dull Tate scenes any better knowing we're getting 5 minutes of Talia later on before she dies?

My standards are just not low enough to get excited about such an under whelmingly bad pay off.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

Outside these movies maybe. I don't think Marion was as bad as Katie was, but there wasn't a big gap between them in terms of acting within this franchise. Marion was sleep walking through the Tate stuff. The Talia reveal was so brief, as was her existence after being revealed as Talia that there's no reason why we should care about this character. Her laughable death scene is just the icing on the cake to a character who's removal from this movie would have been a huge bonus.

Regarding her accent, the point is Marion, unlike Christian, Gary, Heath etc is seemingly unable to lose her natural accent in any role she plays. That's the point regwec was making. She doesn't show a lot of range. She certainly didn't in this movie.

Not many actors can change their accents as well as those guys though. It's rare actually. Also their native language is English already.

It's not like she was playing a country girl. She can have foreign accent.

 

[WorthyStevens]

I don't see how it was a bad pay-off. To me that's like saying The Sixth Sense had a bad pay-off since you only get to 'see' Bruce Willis realize that he's a ghost, for the last few minutes of the movie.

 

[BatLobster]

That's who she is for 95% of her screen time. You think it makes those dull Tate scenes any better knowing we're getting 5 minutes of Talia later on before she dies?

My standards are just not low enough to get excited about such an under whelmingly bad pay off.

For the first time you see the film. For me, on subsequent viewings, it's impossible not to think of her as Talia for the duration of the whole movie, and this gives all her actions a different meaning.

Just like I like to just simply think of Blake as Robin for the whole film. The characterizations fit.

 

[The Joker]

Not many actors can change their accents as well as those guys though. It's rare actually. Also their native language is English already.

It's not rare. Many actors can change their accents, or hide their natural accents. All it takes is practice and dedication. Heck nearly every main actor in this franchise did. Cillian and Liam didn't sound Irish. Heath hid his Aussie accent. Gary, Christian, and Tom hid their British accents.

Caine is about the only one who didn't, and that was fine because Alfred is supposed to be a Brit anyway.

Her having a French accent didn't bother me personally, but the point is she didn't change it just like she has not in all of her roles. Not even when she was revealed as Talia. I can't fathom why Talia would have a French accent. I could understand if she faked it as Tate to add further cover to her identity. Then started speaking in the accent Ra's had in Begins when revealed as Talia.

 

[The Joker]

I don't see how it was a bad pay-off. To me that's like saying The Sixth Sense had a bad pay-off since you only get to 'see' Bruce Willis realize that he's a ghost, for the last few minutes of the movie.

How can you compare the two? Bruce Willis' character was the MAIN character for the movie, along with Osment, and after all the ghost stuff they go through together, you find out he was unknowingly one, too, and then they go back through the movie showing all the hints peppered throughout that showed he was a ghost, it was a genuine shock and it worked.

Tate was an under developed side character who was a boring business woman going on about a clean energy project, who was the most random sex scene ever, with no chemistry or heat between her and Bale, then just lingers in the background, until she's revealed as Talia, and then dies.

For the first time you see the film. For me, on subsequent viewings, it's impossible not to think of her as Talia and it gives all her actions a different meaning.

Just like I think of Blake as Robin for the whole movie. Because that's who he is.

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I dooooo that defines me"

All she does for most of the movie is be Miranda Tate. If you can make yourself see Talia in all those dull Tate scenes, good for you. I wish I could brain wash myself into making dull characters more interesting like that.

 

[BatLobster]

Then started speaking in the accent Ra's had in Begins when revealed as Talia.

She kinda did. I heard it when she said, "And although I'm not ordinary. I am a citizen."

Could be just me projecting though, but she did sound a bit different.

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I dooooo that defines me"

All she does for most of the movie is be Miranda Tate. If you can make yourself see Talia in all those dull Tate scenes, good for you. I wish I could brain wash myself into making dull characters more interesting like that.

But all her actions in the film as Tate are in service of her goals as Talia. It is what she does that defines her.

 

[WorthyStevens]

How can you compare the two? Bruce Willis' character was the MAIN character for the movie, along with Osment, and after all the ghost stuff they go through together, you find out he was unknowingly one, too, and then they go back through the movie showing all the hints peppered throughout that showed he was a ghost, it was a genuine shock and it worked.

Tate was an under developed side character who was a boring business woman going on about a clean energy project, who was the most random sex scene ever, with no chemistry or heat between her and Bale, then just lingers in the background, until she's revealed as Talia, and then dies.

Main character or not, they both were presented in one fashion during the movie; then at the end, you find they weren't who they appear to be. The comparison was that you only see who they really are for a few minutes.

My point is, it's not a bad pay-off if their true persona is only on-screen for a short time. Plus, it's not like it's a random twist thrown our way. There were clues throughout the film.

 

[The Joker]

She kinda did. I heard it when she said, "And although I'm not ordinary. I am a citizen."

Could be just me projecting though, but she did sound a bit different.

Her accent never changed. I think you're making things up now.

But all her actions in the film as Tate are in service of her goals as Talia. It is what she does that defines her.

What things? We don't see her say or do anything that helps service Bane's plan. The only thing she does is get her foot in the door of running W.E.

The only thing you could say she did for a purpose was to get Bruce to care about her by sleeping with him, which was completely unbelievable and felt so forced. Bruce knew Tate for all of 5 minutes. There was no chemistry or connection between them.

It was like with the character Foley. We were just supposed to care about him even though the script gives us no reasons to.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

It's not rare. Many actors can change their accents, or hide their natural accents. All it takes is practice and dedication. Heck nearly every main actor in this franchise did. Cillian and Liam didn't sound Irish. Heath hid his Aussie accent. Gary, Christian, and Tom hid their British accents.

Caine is about the only one who didn't, and that was fine because Alfred is supposed to be a Brit anyway.

Her having a French accent didn't bother me personally, but the point is she didn't change it just like she has not in all of her roles. Not even when she was revealed as Talia. I can't fathom why Talia would have a French accent. I could understand if she faked it as Tate to add further cover to her identity. Then started speaking in the accent Ra's had in Begins when revealed as Talia.

It's still rare to be able sound like an american when your native language isn't even English.

Look at Cristoph Waltz or Javier Bardem. They still have their own accent.Even british or american actors having struggles in accent department. Marion's accent gets better.

Talia can have foreign accent. She isn't have to be American.

 

[The Joker]

Main character or not, they both were presented in one fashion during the movie; then at the end, you find they weren't who they appear to be. The comparison was that you only see who they really are for a few minutes.

Again, it's not the same thing at all. Bruce Willis did not under go a personality change and reveal himself to be a very different person when it was revealed he was a ghost. He just didn't know he was one. That was the twist. He was still the same person he was just dead.

Tate wasn't Tate. She was Talia. She didn't care about clean energy projects. She didn't like Bruce. She was a whole different person entirely.

My point is, it's not a bad pay-off if their true persona is only on-screen for a short time.

In Tate's case it definitely is. We were introduced to a whole new character; Talia. The vengeful child of Ra's Al Ghul, who loved Bane, and wanted to kill the whole city. How long did we get to know her? 5 minutes.

You think that was a good pay off?

Plus, it's not like it's a random twist thrown our way. There were clues throughout the film.

What clues? The little scar on her back? The brief mention of balancing the world at the charity ball? Awful clues.

 

[TinkerTailor]

Marion's performance was strong. There is great contrast between vulnerable Miranda to creepy & strong Talia.

Except death scene (which is not as bad as some people overreacting ) her performance in this limited role is really good.

You want to see weak performance? Watch Katie Holmes again.t:

I think this is the problem right here. The role itself was so lacking that only a truly great character actor could have elevated it. This isn't a new thing with Nolan. Look at Eames in Inception. On the page he's a terribly bland expository device, yet Hardy's performance brings so much to the table. Unfortunately you can't constantly rely on talented actors to make a poor character/script work.

 

[Fudgie]

Not really. Marion has a very femme-fatale look to her. Not every actress has that.

Anne Hathaway doesn't look like a femme fatale and she was an awesome Catwoman anyway. She sold it with her brilliant performance.

Cottiard failed because her acting was weak and so was her character. Nothing about her worked.

 

[WorthyStevens]

Again, it's not the same thing at all. Bruce Willis did not under go a personality change and reveal himself to be a very different person when it was revealed he was a ghost. He just didn't know he was one. That was the twist. He was still the same person he was just dead.

I'm talking in the context that it was something we thought we knew, but it wasn't all along.

Tate wasn't Tate. She was Talia. She didn't care about clean energy projects. She didn't like Bruce. She was a whole different person entirely.

I can agree on that.

In Tate's case it definitely is. We were introduced to a whole new character; Talia. The vengeful child of Ra's Al Ghul, who loved Bane, and wanted to kill the whole city. How long did we get to know her? 5 minutes.

You think that was a good pay off?

I was satisfied. The length to me didn't matter. It brought the first film full circle with Ras.

What clues? The little scar on her back? The brief mention of balancing the world at the charity ball? Awful clues.

Not what I was going to mention. I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that Bane and company seemed to arrive wherever Tate/Talia was at with no problem of finding the place (the three cops killed). Things like that. Also, that Bane had Tate brought to him off screen, only to let her go shortly after.

They weren't clues that she was in fact Talia, but clues to the fact that there was definitely something off with her.

 

[Van Petrol]

It's not rare. Many actors can change their accents, or hide their natural accents. All it takes is practice and dedication. Heck nearly every main actor in this franchise did. Cillian and Liam didn't sound Irish. Heath hid his Aussie accent. Gary, Christian, and Tom hid their British accents.

Caine is about the only one who didn't, and that was fine because Alfred is supposed to be a Brit anyway.

Her having a French accent didn't bother me personally, but the point is she didn't change it just like she has not in all of her roles. Not even when she was revealed as Talia. I can't fathom why Talia would have a French accent. I could understand if she faked it as Tate to add further cover to her identity. Then started speaking in the accent Ra's had in Begins when revealed as Talia.

Tbf, her accent did sound slightly different when she first revealed herself as Talia before stabbing Batman, it then swayed of into her normal accent after that.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Eames and Selina are action roles. The Miranda persona is not. Not that it would have helped certain posters, one of whom complained for an entire year that she was in the movie before it came out.

 

[The Joker]

I'm talking in the context that it was something we thought we knew, but it wasn't all along.

That's an umbrella heading for a lot of things. We're talking about two different things here. A state of being, and being an entirely different character. Both very different things.

Revealing someone is dead doesn't require further exploration. Introducing a whole new persona, that definitely does.

I was satisfied. The length to me didn't matter. It brought the first film full circle with Ras.

That's where we differ. I am a firm believer in quality not quantity, too. But what we were given was not quality.

There's a reason why Talia is considered by most to be the worst villain of the trilogy. It's because she's under developed, short lived, and we are never given any reasons to care about this character. Just saying she is the child of Ra's isn't enough.

They could introduce the son of the Joker, but unless the script or the actor makes us give a damn, it means nothing.

Not what I was going to mention. I was thinking more along the lines of the fact that Bane and company seemed to arrive wherever Tate/Talia was at with no problem of finding the place (the three cops killed).

I never put any stock in that. Bane had (supposedly) got Gotham on his side because he was a liberator. Giving it back to the people. Any one of them could have ratted them out. I mean they only brought those three Cops to Lucius and Tate a minute before Bane's men caught them.

We were never given the impression Lucius and Tate were aware they were coming to talk to them in the first place since Blake urged Gordon to tell them the truth about the bomb's deadline.

Also, that Bane had Tate brought to him off screen, only to let her go shortly after.

She was Bruce's "girlfriend". Something Selina also refers to her as.