Mass Effect 3 - - - Part 12

[Upset Spideyfan]

Just on the topic of Victus and then I'll let it go, the Krogan entry into the war initially gives the Reapers a shock but by the end Garrus also says the Krogan push is not stopping the Reaper advance any longer and that the turian military can no longer engage in offensive operations.

 

[Matt]

Had to have the last word?

 

[Matt]

For the new page:

Does anyone find it odd that this game, which has arguably made revolutions and mad western RPGs mainstream, essentially becomes a JRPG in the end? It goes from very open to very linear, has an odd, ambiguous ending that relies heavily on an out of nowhere twist that really doesn't make any sense. I wonder if Square Enix's team popped into the BW office to help them with the ending?

The ending, Star Child and all, really does feel like it would be more at home in a series like Final Fantasy than Mass Effect, which is odd, considering that the Mass Effect franchise is essentially the poster boy for the western RPG..

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Had to have the last word?

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

For the new page:



The ending, Star Child and all, really does feel like it would be more at home in a series like Final Fantasy than Mass Effect.

I know what you're talking about. I think that's thankfully been lessened a good deal by pushing the Star Child and the endings back into the realm of sci-fi. The only one that I am still EHHH about is Synthesis.

 

[Matt]

I know what you're talking about. I think that's thankfully been lessened a good deal by pushing the Star Child and the endings back into the realm of sci-fi. The only one that I am still EHHH about is Synthesis.

Even with the changes, it still have a very JRPG vibe about it. Maybe it is just execution (the creepy little star child).

But yeah, Synthesis is terrible. I don't even know why BW added it in there. I guess that they felt like they really needed a third option...but the way it unlocks if the player has the best possible game...it almost feels like it is Walters and Hudson's best ending. I mean, how the Reapers would even have the ability to just alter every single living creature at the blink of an eye is beyond me. The fact that the Synthesis option even exists raises some serious questions about the nature of the Reapers and ME universe. It takes them from being rogue VIs to out of control gods.

Speaking of the implications of the endings, I am still not convinced that Destroy actually destroys the Reapers or that Control actually gives Shepard control over them. The most telling aspect of the rejection ending is the way that the Star Child so quickly changes his tone and takes on Harbinger's voice. It really raises a lot of questions about his nature. Was the Star Child only ever a trick? If so, does this give merit to Indoctrination theory (even though the EE basically took a piss on that)? If the Star Child is a sinister being, why give Shepard control over its fate? Clearly it doesn't because Shepard's response to controlling his own fate is to kill everyone. It feels more like it is giving Shepard the illusion of control, while maintaining it on its own.

I suppose these questions are a reflection of why the extended edition is still only a coat of polish on a broken ending. These questions should not exist. The fact that they do show how fundamentally bad the ending is.

 

[Balthus Dire]

Totally agree about the JRPG thing. Even though the endings are improved with the EC, they still completely clash thematically with the rest of the story across the whole franchise.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

BW actually intentionally left the gasp the way it was so that the indoctrination theory wasn't totally "dead" as it were.

I think the Starchild's new behaviors when Shepard challenges it, and the revelation of its logic and past push it firmly away from omnipotent God child and into a Rogue VI.

That does a couple of things. Shepard argues with it thankfully now, but more importantly it makes it claims about technological singularity not absolute. Its got faulty logic, even its creators did not believe in the singularity (though they may have changed their minds as they were being turned to paste ), but that removes the fatalist MACHINES WILL ALWAYS KILL HUMANS theme. Its never really allowed organic vs synthetic to play out to its possible final conclusion which is the Geth/Quarian peace.

but yeah I think that leaves a big gap in its logic and thought processes. Its much more HAL now than God Child.

 

[Matt]

But the fact that it is capable of changing the DNA and molecular makeup of every creature, every organism in the entire universe....that raises a hell of a lot of questions about the true nature of the Reapers. Maybe they are gods.

But yeah, that is my problem with the Destroy ending...even in the EE. Hell, I'd argue it is even more egregious in the EE. Shepard can now make the Reapers admit the flaw to their logic...but to destroy them, he still has to commit a genocide of the Geth. So they're wrong, humans and machines can live in peace....buuuut, to be safe, let's just kill all the machines.

At any rate, I personally think BW should've taken out the Synthesis ending. Too many questions raised by it that the extended edition failed to answer, plus it really doesn't seem like anyone picks it...so just lose it.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Well it wasn't able to do Synthesis before the Crucible. It tried actually in previous cycles and says the attempt failed.

The Catalyst also says that he's seen temporary truces before and they've always failed so the Geth/Quarian alliance is nothing new to it. The thing is it may have decided this before the permanent truces arrived since we see it works out ultimately on Rannoch.

Also its entire personality was created and designed around the purpose that synthetics and organics will fight. Its not capable of seeing beyond that which is why it supports Synthesis since it thinks that only homogeneity will solve the problem.

That the Geth/Quarians can enter into a state of permanent peace as seen in Control proves it to be wrong, but it would never allow a cycle to go on that long.

 

[Matt]

But HOW is it even capable of doing synthesis, that is my question? The implications regarding the Reapers and Reapers created by the synthesis ending (hell, even the fact that such an ending exists) are mind blowing.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

It wasn't prior to that moment, the Crucible is not its design and it didn't have a device that could transmit energy on that scale before.

 

[Matt]

But even with the energy how could it change the DNA of every living creature unless it has some other worldly power?

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Oh if you're asking about the actual science behind the process, then like I said the Synthesis is still my EHHH ending.

Also I realize now you're maybe under the impression the Catalyst/Reapers are responsible for Synthesis happening/occuring and my language and phrasing towards all of that was incredibly sloppy and loose (apologies):

As far as the Catalyst goes, it has nothing to do with Synthesis being available or its use. Its moreso an unintended side effect of the Crucible interacting with the Citadel and Shepard being there. The Catalyst is able to recognize the possibility exists but it didn't initiate it nor can it do anything to actually enact it on its own.

*Organized/Edited this post*

 

[Balthus Dire]

Space magic, bro. Come on, now.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Essentially.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

But I'm just saying moreso that its not something the Catalyst itself can do but rather the Citadel+the Crucible+Shepard, the science behind Synthesis is not good but regardless its clear from the Catalyst's prior failed attempts at this that it scientifically lacks the ability to do it on its own.

Aside from recognizing that it can be done, the Catalyst actually doesn't do anything in the Synthesis ending to create or transmit the beam itself.

EDIT: Also a nice little detail I noticed recently. The Control panel has 4 hand holds.

 

[KevanG]

And Hackett repeatedly states the Reapers will bleed them dry. Every military leader says that they cannot keep this up. Every military leader states conventional victory is impossible. Their economy is going to collapse in a year. Earth has fallen, Thessia has fallen. Palavan is on the verge of falling. Dekuun has fallen. The Reapers took the Citadel as soon as they wanted it. The Reapers don't have supply lines or colonies for the allied forces to even chip at. Every world they harvest their forces are becoming more powerful. The entire Reaper force isn't even at Earth and the Allied Fleet is still getting thoroughly smashed.

Conventional victory is impossible.

I was reading through the Let's Play of Dwarf Fortress - Boatmurdered recently and this description reminded me of pretty much any update.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

LMAO. Nice.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

If the Star Child is a sinister being, why give Shepard control over its fate? Clearly it doesn't because Shepard's response to controlling his own fate is to kill everyone.

We kind of glossed over this during the conversation but here's what I took away regarding why the Catalyst even interacts with Shepard:

The Catalyst says that its solution won't work anymore because Shepard's here standing before it.

The Refuse ending made what he meant here clearer to me.

It realizes that eventually its going to get beaten. It thought the Crucible design had been destroyed yet here it is parked at his doorstep. The Protheans managed to bungle up this cycle's harvest and here this cycle is, fighting the Reapers on a unified front. They might be doomed, but maybe if things had gone different the roles would be reversed and that's a possibility it can't ignore.

It knows now that whether its the next cycle (as is the case in Refuse) or a hundred cycles from now, it can't stop the transfer of information and knowledge that's already taken place and that the Reapers are eventually doomed. So something else has to happen now which is why it brings in Shepard to confer with.

It doesn't like Destroy for obvious reasons which is why he down sells the option but at the very least in its view it kills all the Synthetics.

The Catalyst seems uncomfortable with Control (and in fact admits he doesn't like the idea of being replaced), but at the very least Shepard can use the Reapers should the need arise.

He still sells Synthesis as the best option (its the only one he actually argues for) since that's the one that completes his core programming. The other two options are in his view compromises. This is the one he wants.

Choosing Refuse sends it into a fit, the two of you are at an impasse. Since we know now that the Catalyst is the collective Reaper intelligence + whatever portion of it is stored on the Citadel (which I imagine to be where the original Catalyst AI is housed) ala the Geth Consensus I would wager that whatever portion of the Reapers that are in favor of outright just completing the harvest (the Sovereigns of the Reapers if you will) as opposed to compromising win out - hence the outburst.

 

[jerkhero]

Am I the only one who finds the endings pretty scifi..ish, i mean fitting for a scifi story. Many scifi novels i've read deal with weird stuff, things that are more mythical or even more religious than scientific. That said, i'm not familiar with a huge variety of scifi novels, maybe i just pick the weird ones.

I actually don't mind "things that don't make sense" in stories. I also don't really need answers for everything. But yeah, i know that the problem with these endings (or the original endings) is that they might not be fitting for Mass Effect series. ME didn't have that much mythical stuff, or at least most of it was explained or revealed later.

 

[Reek]

Why wasn't Neo in this game? He would have known what to do.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Am I the only one who finds the endings pretty scifi..ish, i mean fitting for a scifi story.

All the endings are save for Synthesis, the mechanics of which are still pretty wobbly and veers uncomfortably towards fantasy, though obviously transhumanism as a theme is science fiction.

But Control/Destroy/Refuse are very much within the realm of sci-fi as established by the series proper not to mention that they went through a lot of effort to de-mystify the Catalyst.

I actually don't mind "things that don't make sense" in stories.

This is a very tight line to walk, and I don't think the original endings did a good job of it.

The new Prometheus movie tried to lean in on this and I don't think it worked there as well.

 

[Donut]

The new Prometheus movie tried to lean in on this and I don't think it worked there as well.

Damon Lindelof was a screen writer on that wasnt he ? The fact that that happened with Prometheus is not surprising. If you ask me anyway

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

No, I think you're right about that.