BvS New Positivity Thread (READ THE FIRST POST!)

[NeoRanger]

Batman has an arc, no question. He is a different character at the end of the movie then he was at the start. Does Superman character change over the course of the movie? If so, how is he different? I guess he doesn't trust Batman at first and the character arc is he is willing to put the life of his mum in the hands of someone he earlier wanted to shut down. So I guess is a character arc.

I think the exact opposite is what happened. Batman doesn't have an arc, he has a light-switch-flip at the end of the movie. That's not an arc, that's a decisions taken on the spot.

Superman goes from helping people, to fearing he's causing more harm than good, to realizing that doing is all that matters. Even that's flimsy, but it's an arc.

 

[WoodyROM]

Batman has an arc, no question. He is a different character at the end of the movie then he was at the start. Does Superman character change over the course of the movie? If so, how is he different? I guess he doesn't trust Batman at first and the character arc is he is willing to put the life of his mum in the hands of someone he earlier wanted to shut down. So I guess is a character arc.

Also, he states that "it meant something on my world, but my world is gone (or something to that effect)". He was referring to Krypton, yes, but he was also referring to Earth. He had been doing all that he could to be a symbol of hope, but after seeing the worst from humanity believed that "world" to be destroyed.

However, [BLACKOUT]as he prepares to sacrifice himself for all of humanity[/BLACKOUT], he tells Lois "this is my world, you are my world". That feels like an arc to me.

 

[spider-neil]

However, [BLACKOUT]as he prepares to sacrifice himself for all of humanity[/BLACKOUT], he tells Lois "this is my world, you are my world". That feels like an arc to me.

But he would have done that at the start of the movie regardless of the events of what happened in the movie.

You needed the events of the movie to make Bruce make a u turn with regard to sparing Clark, saving his movie and not branding Lex. It's flimsy and tenuous but it's there.

 

[Chesterfield]

I presume this has been posted already. Apologies if so.

 

[Tra-El]

I presume this has been posted already. Apologies if so.

This video deserves to be seen a handful of times.

 

[AnneFan]

I presume this has been posted already. Apologies if so.

Wow, much respect to this man. He poured his soul out during this video. I had a similar reaction to him upon seeing the film too.

 

[Greeneyes]

Just finished catching up on this thread and I have to say that there are some fantastic posts/comments here. Most of them echo my thoughts so closely.

You guys n gals are awesome

 

[WoodyROM]

But he would have done that at the start of the movie regardless of the events of what happened in the movie.

You needed the events of the movie to make Bruce make a u turn with regard to sparing Clark, saving his movie and not branding Lex. It's flimsy and tenuous but it's there.

So a character arc needs to be about actions rather than internal changes i.e. the way he views and reacts to the world? I agree that he would have done that prior, but his entire view on humanity has changed at that point.

That probably sounds snarky, but I am trying to learn about story in general so it is a genuine question

 

[BH/HHH]

I was debating listening to that one, thanks for the heads up If you haven't listened to the Batman on Film podcast from yesterday I suggest giving that one a listen. Mark Hughes is the guest, and the 3 of them all have different opinions about the film (none of them hated it), so it was an good and interesting conversation.

Oh I listened to two they already did but not one with Mark ?pHughes. I will listen.

I've deleted the Batman News one its just annoying me. I get everyone has their win opinion but Sean Gerbers just doing what he always does which is mention Nolan ever two seconds.

Anyone listened to the SuicideSquadcast on it yet bad know if they liked it?

 

[BH/HHH]

Supes didn't have an arc? *Laughs. That's ridiculous.

I know just an utterly ridiculous comment

 

[NeoRanger]

So a character arc needs to be about actions rather than internal changes i.e. the way he views and reacts to the world? I agree that he would have done that prior, but his entire view on humanity has changed at that point.

That probably sounds snarky, but I am trying to learn about story in general so it is a genuine question

An arc needs to show a character change through the events of the story in as organic a way as possible, through key-points in the story. Superman's starts either in Africa or in Man of Steel (depends on how you view it, probably both are right to some extend), it continues with the aftermath of that incident, then the invitation to the Capitol Hill, the explosion, the dream with Pa, the confrontation with Lex, the alliance with Batman, Lois at the end and, of course, the sacrifice a little later.

These are clear story beats through which Superman changes organically to complete his arc when he shoves the spear through Doomsday's heart. The Batman investigation actually gets in the way of it all.

Batman's character ark starts with the incident in Metropolis, continues with the Bat brand and ends when he makes up with Superman. That's it.

 

[WoodyROM]

An arc needs to show a character change through the events of the story in as organic a way as possible, through key-points in the story. Superman's starts either in Africa or in Man of Steel (depends on how you view it, probably both are right to some extend), it continues with the aftermath of that incident, then the invitation to the Capitol Hill, the explosion, the dream with Pa, the confrontation with Lex, the alliance with Batman, Lois at the end and, of course, the sacrifice a little later.

These are clear story beats through which Superman changes organically to complete his arc when he shoves the spear through Doomsday's heart. The Batman investigation actually gets in the way of it all.

Batman's character ark starts with the incident in Metropolis, continues with the Bat brand and ends when he makes up with Superman. That's it.

I agree with the points on Supes, which is what I was trying to argue I think. However, I think there's more to Batman's arc. His starts with the murder of his parents (redundant but necessary), falls again during Black Zero, the brand, the "murdered your family" notes, the fight, Superman is the catalyst for change (well, Martha), then it ends with his declaration at Supes grave and him not branding Lex.

So I think they have equally fleshed out arcs for the most part, but hopefully the Ultimate Cut will improve upon what we got.

 

[The Guard]

Superman has a very clear arc, with regard to reconciling his own self interest (Lois and his new life) with his sacred mission. It involves learning to listen to the will of the people (his pursuit of Batman is evidence of this), learning about the dark side of humanity, doubting his role in the world because of this, and eventually reconciling himself to dedicate his life to saving lives anyway, at any cost, including losing his life, and his life with Lois.

And Batman's arc doesn't just have to do with his descent into rage and desire for revenge regarding superman, where he essentially becomes what he hates due to his fears and insecurities, but also with how his perceptions on protecting the world change and evolve due to the discovery and reaction of the metahuman phenonemon, which Superman is a part of.

It's all tied together rather elegantly.

What I find especially clever is Luthor's arc, and the way his character development unfolds almost backwards, with clues to who he is being revealed gradually, but the truth of his personality and the meaning of all this not being revealed until the end of the film.

 

[HaplessHenchman]

I presume this has been posted already. Apologies if so.

Just saw the movie again last night and gosh darn if I did not tear up a little at the moments he mentions. My wife and daughter both cried at the end.

 

[Sleiek]

I'm more of a Batman fan, but I want to say BvS cemented Superman as my second favourite hero. It made me love the character more than I already did.

Same here, AnneFan.

I have always liked Superman but he was never as interesting to me as Batman is. BvS made him really interesting for me to enjoy this character more than ever. But I want to see a change in future movies, otherwise all this wouldn't work for me. I want to see all these carried out: Stumble, Fall, Rise

 

[Da-Scribe]

I think we'll get the rise in JL for sure. It's been confirmed to be lighter and Superman's arc at the end of the film was definitely at a high point.

 

[BH/HHH]

I cannot wait to see the moment Superman returns in JL Part One. You just know with Snyder it's gonna be an awesome moment.

 

[LamboMan]

I have to say some stuff and get it off my chest.

I've been an ardent supporter and lover of MOS since it came out and have patiently gone through the terribly long wait and anticipation for 3 long years since this movie was announced, as many of you have. I'm a die hard DC fan and have been consuming Superman and Batman media since as long as I can remember. I remember drawing Superman and Krypto for my dad's birthday card when I was 4 and one of my first action figures was of Batman haha.

I love Zack Snyder and all his movies, Watchmen is one of my favorite movies of all time. I was overjoyed when I heard he was going to direct MOS and then elated beyond words when I heard he will be tackling BVS and the JL movies.

I have checked every piece of news, every picture, every article, every reveal related to BVS for 3 years straight. BVS was the reason I joined these boards and even though I've been much more of a lurker than a contributor, I've checked this board every single day since I joined.

I wanted so badly to love this movie and I hoped and knew Zack would give us another masterpiece that would be too smart for everyone to instantly appreciate and understand and would most probably be very divisive, like all his movies.

I missed the chance to get tickets for last Friday which is when I wanted to see this movie and due to other reasons I could only go on Monday. The additional wait was torture. And then on last Friday, after years of waiting, anticipation and looking forward to being blown away by this movie, the unthinkable happened. My supposed 'best' friend saw the movie on Friday (lives in another city) and even though he knows how much this movie means to me and I specifically told him not to tell me anything at all, he spoiled the movie for me by giving away the ending in a text message.

I was so infuriated and hurt and disappointed that if it turned out to be true, it would have robbed me of the clean, untarnished experience that I had been waiting to have for 3 years. All gone in an instant. My friend said he was just joking and that it doesn't actually happen that way, but then I went and saw the movie and it did.

And now to my main point: I felt empty when I saw the end of the movie, unlike all the people who say they cried at the end or had some other feeling of shock or awe.

Any fan of Superman would have known what to expect given that we knew who the physical threat was and yet, no one knew whether it would actually happen. That experience of finding out for myself was stolen from me, taken from me.

I wanted so badly to feel something, but I felt nothing. Even though I was super excited and in awe of all the new and surprising stuff I saw in the rest of the movie for the first time, I knew what to expect at the end and so it totally fell flat for me and ruined my experience.

I also went in with some preconceived notions of what this movie should depict and when it didn't meet that in all regards it hurt my viewing experience.

The combination of the above things made me disappointed with the entire movie and slowly I found myself directing my anger at all sorts of small things like Doomsday not looking like he should, Superman not doing the shirt rip, the senate bombing not allowing Superman to say anything, Luthor knowing all their identities etc.

I forgot to look for the deeper meaning and themes in the movie, like I love doing in all Zack Snyder movies and I went straight to the disgruntled bashing. I felt unsatisfied, like something was completely wrong and I couldn't put my finger on it. My enjoyment of the movie was severely maimed and was dwindling by the second.

But I didn't give up. After seeing this thread I began to go through it looking for things that would make me love this movie again and found these amazing articles:

http://pulpklatura.tumblr.com/post/141843209469/batman-v-superman-the-modern-revenge-tragedy
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2016/03/22/review-batman-v-superman-triumphant/#647a9f393cbd
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug...and-batman-v-superman-proves-it/#4da6ff95258e

And after reading them, I will admit my viewpoint has changed completely and I can finally feel myself beginning to appreciate and love this masterpiece that Zack and Co have created for what it really is as opposed to what I wanted it to be. I feel vindicated for not having lost hope and for having kept trying to redeem this movie for myself by expanding my viewpoint so as to see things from a new and clean perspective. Reading those articles was a cathartic experience.

Now I finally feel that when I go to see this movie for a second time this Saturday, I might reach a point where I experience an emotional reaction to the ending of the movie, something that I feel I sorely need in order for me to be able to get past having my experience ruined and for me to truly be able to love and appreciate this movie without feeling like I'm forcing it.

I almost reached that point today, when I was listening to the OST on a loop for hours while I worked and at one point hearing the part where Supes dies and then the tunes during his funeral almost made me tear up, and it was just the music that did that!

Now some of you may feel I am blowing this out of proportion but only I know what this movie has meant to me for so many years. It's been a beacon of hope for the future, something great to look forward to amidst the problems of daily life and a dreary life at that. And I'm sure some of you will agree with that.

After having listened to the OST on a loop for days now, I have fallen in love with it and even though I didn't react much to it the first time I saw the movie, I can already feel how much I'm going to love hearing it in the theater on my second viewing. Good music always makes me enjoy a movie way more and this will do just that.

Those articles above have given me a clean new untarnished perspective to see the movie from and so I'm sure I will enjoy it waaay more the second time and then even more the third and so on.

I just want to conclude by giving a huge THANK YOU to all the positive people in this thread for sharing their viewpoints and for sharing these articles since they have breathed new life into my experience with this movie and have helped me go from bitter and unsatisfied to hopeful and elated.

Just like Superman would want me to be.


Group hug:

PS: If you read all that, then I really appreciate it. I just needed to share what I'm feeling and there's not many people who would understand besides you guys.

 

[Tra-El]

I cannot wait to see the moment Superman returns in JL Part One. You just know with Snyder it's gonna be an awesome moment.

Remember when Cavill, in an interview, said how Superman's suit will evolve from film to film?

The [BLACKOUT]black casket with the Silver S on the front was foreshadowing that. I am going to go crazy when Supes maks his triumphant return in his Black and Silver. [/BLACKOUT]BAH YEA!

 

[Tra-El]

I will say,[BLACKOUT] Snyder better BACK THE HELL OFF OF SHOWING SUPERMAN RETURN in the JLP1 trailers. He must NOT show that moment.[/BLACKOUT] For this reason, I might stay away COMPLETELY.

 

[BH/HHH]

Remember when Cavill, in an interview, said how Superman's suit will evolve from film to film?

The [BLACKOUT]black casket with the Silver S on the front was foreshadowing that. I am going to go crazy when Supes maks his triumphant return in his Black and Silver. [/BLACKOUT]BAH YEA!

Oh that would freaking rock, he's gonna need a new suit aswell. I still think that the ship will have something to do with it like the fortress did in the return of Superman.

I will say,[BLACKOUT] Snyder better BACK THE HELL OFF OF SHOWING SUPERMAN RETURN in the JLP1 trailers. He must NOT show that moment.[/BLACKOUT] For this reason, I might stay away COMPLETELY.

I agree and I think I might aswell. That's my one regret with BvS I saw to much.

 

[Polux]

Remember when Cavill, in an interview, said how Superman's suit will evolve from film to film?

The [BLACKOUT]black casket with the Silver S on the front was foreshadowing that. I am going to go crazy when Supes maks his triumphant return in his Black and Silver. [/BLACKOUT]BAH YEA!

Link, please...??


Polux

 

[Da-Scribe]

@Tra-El, I'm almost 100% sure they will do exactly that lol.

 

[BH/HHH]

I wonder if Batman will have Superman's suit that he was wearing when he died, maybe he'll repair it (and make some adjustments). Infact it'd be cool if he kept that one in a case like the Robin one. Then when he returns they could do a cool thing where the suits missing and the glass case has been smashed.

 

[Decepticonus]

Oh dear god NO to the black suit, not a fan.