Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 15

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Nothing PJ or any other director or studio does can substantially damage the estate nor Tolkien's works. Most intelligent or informed (anyone who picks up a book or translation by Tolkien) will realize the films more questionable things do not represent Tolkien nor his works. And Chris may be unwilling to admit it but the films have increased sales of LOTR books and that in turn allows the estate to put money into Tolkien's other unpublished material. I myself would never have discovered Tolkien if not for these films so regardless of Jackson's questionable adaption choices I will always cherrish Jackson and his films for introducing me to Tolkien.

Chris also needs to realize that Tolkien's translations of Beowulf and other ancient stories and Tolkien's notes will never be popular or big sellers. That stuff is academic and has a specific reader group. The films won't make that stuff sell any less. If anything it will make that stuff sell more because people will be quick to snatch up anything with Tolkien's name on it without realizing that stuff isn't LOTR related nor easy reads for the laymen.
 
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I don't think he is very interested in money or sales. I realise that is difficult to accept in the modern, dumbed-down world.
 
The estate is very much interested in money and sales. They've said as much. Not in a greedy selfish sense, but Chris wants the estate to remain profitable for the sake of Tolkien's works. The sales and profits allows Chris and the estate the time and resources to keep publishing Tolkien's notes and translations. The most recent of which was The Fall of Arthur that came out this past May. Since LOTR came out in 2001 there has been a substantial uptic in Tolkien translations being published by the estate. There is some connection there.

Don't get me wrong Chris has the right to be upset by the films. I understand how much JRR's work and stories and life mean to Chris, and that to him it must seem like Jackson and WB and New Line have kicked the memory of Tolkien to the gutter and beat it to a pulp. But there is a necessary truth to this society. We are a capitalist society that relies on demand. The films have increased demand and created a large market for Tolkien. This in turn is good for the estate whether Chris cares about it or not.

Given Chris's age he will likely never come around to the films. I get the impression that he doesn't care for visual media and story telling in general. Preferring books to tv and films. It's understandable given he was born decades before tv became popular and considering his life and upbringing. Being around Tolkien and his love of words and stories must have been infectious and would instill a love of written stories in anyone. So I think even the most respectful slavish adaptations wouldn't have gotten much more than a shrug from Chris. In his mind Tolkien's works belong solely in print and only print is worthy of those stories.
 
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Tolkien's books were not unpopular before New Line turned them into movies.

Part of the reason the movies did so well was the inbuilt audience that came with fans of the books. That was also why the movie licence was so sought after.

I doubt very many kids who enjoyed the fart and snot jokes in The Hobbit are going to take on The Monsters and the Critics.

As with any trust, profit is important to the estate. But not at any price. I certainly feel that PJ's Hobbit adaptations have done more damage to popular perceptions of JRR as a writer and scholar than could be repaired by the publication of any number of his learned essays.
 
Eh, the books have sold more copies since the release of the movies then they did in their entirety up until then. If anything the Estate should be happy about the amount of exposure Tolkiens work has received due to the movies.
 
And I highly doubt that the general audience puts even a fraction of the consideration into these films that we do. They go watch the movie and by the next week the fart and burp jokes are a distant memory supplanted by real world daily life issues like bills and putting food on the table. Fart and burp jokes don't do near the damage (none to be exact) that fans like to believe. They are inconsequential and neither the estate nor Tolkien's material have suffered long term sustained damage from them. We have to remember that the GA doesn't take this stuff anywhere nearly as serious as we do. It's just another movie to them. They are just there to watch a movie and enjoy themselves and forget about their tedious life for 2-3 hours. If they are lucky the films might leave an interest in them that prompts them to go read the books, but that's about it. It doesn't go beyond that for the GA. They may not think that fart and burp jokes are funny or appealing, but they don't waste their time giving them any consideration.

Frankly we shouldn't either. We ***** about this juvenile humor and allow ourselves to be upset by it when the best thing to do is ignore them or just accept them and spend our time worrying about things that actually matter. And whether we like it or not there is nothing out of character about a bunch of male dwarves farting and burping after they've shoved a pantry's worth of food and beer in their gullet. They are living breathing sometimes disgusting ill mannered creatures. It doesn't mean I won't it in every scene, but those dwarves burping and farting at the dinner table bothered me about as much as flea's fart.
 
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Good post, Marvolo. I agree 100%. My nags aside, I really love what Jackson's done with Thorin's character, and the DOS climax in Laketown was my favorite part of the movie (despite it cutting into Bilbo's confrontation with Smaug),
 
Marvolo said:
The estate (Chris and maybe others) feels that these films shift the public's perception of Tolkien and who and what he was. Chris has said before that Tolkien was more than just LOTR. And he certainly wasn't the films. He was a professor of ancient languages and ancient writings and a philologist. The estate feels that the films undermine the estates ability to draw attention to Tolkien's other equally, possibly more, important works such as his translations of Beowulf and Sigurd and Gawain etc.

Least that's something I read recently. I've always said that I think Chris took a ridiculous point of view on all this. The entire estate doesn't hate the films tho. Tolkien's great-grandson (Royd Tolkien) apparently loves the films and had a small cameo in the extended edition of Hobbit Desolation of Smaug. He is the guy that tosses the Morgul blade into the Witchking's tomb when the Witchking is being buried. Eventually a more open mind like Royd may be in charge of the estate but it could be many years before that happens.
Click to expand...

Wasn't there some great drama between Chris and his son Simon over the films? I seem to recall reading something about how ugly things had gotten between..,
 
Marvolo said:
And I highly doubt that the general audience puts even a fraction of the consideration into these films that we do. They go watch the movie and by the next week the fart and burp jokes are a distant memory supplanted by real world daily life issues like bills and putting food on the table. Fart and burp jokes don't do near the damage (none to be exact) that fans like to believe. They are inconsequential and neither the estate nor Tolkien's material have suffered long term sustained damage from them. We have to remember that the GA doesn't take this stuff anywhere nearly as serious as we do. It's just another movie to them. They are just there to watch a movie and enjoy themselves and forget about their tedious life for 2-3 hours. If they are lucky the films might leave an interest in them that prompts them to go read the books, but that's about it. It doesn't go beyond that for the GA. They may not think that fart and burp jokes are funny or appealing, but they don't waste their time giving them any consideration.

Frankly we shouldn't either. We ***** about this juvenile humor and allow ourselves to be upset by it when the best thing to do is ignore them or just accept them and spend our time worrying about things that actually matter. And whether we like it or not there is nothing out of character about a bunch of male dwarves farting and burping after they've shoved a pantry's worth of food and beer in their gullet. They are living breathing sometimes disgusting ill mannered creatures. It doesn't mean I won't it in every scene, but those dwarves burping and farting at the dinner table bothered me about as much as flea's fart.
Click to expand...

An odd rant. Of course there are things that matter more; I am curious why you felt that needed to be said. The point is that, as a representation of the books, The Hobbit movies are noisy, puerile, loveless, crude, boring and, most damaging of all, badly written. You admit that a lot of people likely to see the movies are unlikely to go any further, so the movies will account for the entirety of their perception of these stories. They are likely to judge JRR and his fiction on that basis alone. Doesn't that matter? Are you really arguing that "there are things that matter more", or are you arguing that "these people don't matter much"?
 
Some more details from the Official Movie Guide.
http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2014/11/10/94427-battle-of-the-five-armies-spoiler-details-from-the-hobbit-official-movie-guide/

We have Dwarves on huge armored boars and others on battle-machine chariots, pulled by armoured mountain goats. There are burrowing creatures – serpent like worms, giant shrews and moles – that might tunnel under the attacking army and come up in the middle of their forces; and great war-trolls specifically trained – and, in some cases, maimed . in order to make them more insane and effective in battle.
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I'm not really a fan of the new Hobbit trilogy (I think it's pretty bad, actually), but this sounds so over the top and crazy that I need to see it in theater.
 
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Saw the latest trailer, looks amazing to me, I have liked these movies so far personally, they are not LOTR, but then I never expected them to be, so I have enjoyed them quite a lot. But Five Armies looks the best yet.
 
Finally finished all of the Dos EE Sunday and found it pretty cool
Had no idea Roy Tolkein was IN the film until it was mentioned in the Commentary. I wish they would have interviewed him for the Extended cut
 
It is premature, but judging from the description, the actual battle of five armies might be the best in the series, or second best behind Helm's Deep. The orcs' motive for marching on the mountain is actually pretty good, and a bit unexpected.
 
Yeah I had a theory about their motive but was wrong. I thought Sauron was wanting to take the Mountain so he could create a beachhead in the North and from their launch a campaign against Lothlorien and Rivendell. Pretty much exactly what he tries to do in the North during the War of the Ring. I guess that is still his secondary goal with this battle, but the idea he is honestly afraid of the dwarves is kind of funny and badass at the same time. Cant wait to see some dwarves tear into some orcs. I hope Jackson has at least one crazy bezerker dwarf rip an orc limb from limb.
 
tumblr_nevljhuXSR1tlns7wo1_1280.jpg


WOOHOO!! It's on it's way!!!! (finally)
tumblr_nboolyIdkK1t7r502o1_250.gif
 
Vartha said:
Finally finished all of the Dos EE Sunday and found it pretty cool
Had no idea Roy Tolkein was IN the film until it was mentioned in the Commentary. I wish they would have interviewed him for the Extended cut
Click to expand...

He was also in RotK. :woot:
 
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