Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 17

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It's good in the sense that it could have been infinitely worse. The only other movie adaptation to compare with it is Ralph Bakshi's, which is a pile of crap, albeit with one or two pearls concealed within. Some key scenes and characters are very well handled. Others, however, are marred.

Overall, it seems like a dumbed down, contracted and insidiously modernised version of the story; but it is still recognizably the same story- unlike The Hobbit.
 
It's like any adaptation.There's varying levels of purism that tends to result in varying levels of love or hate for the films. It's a broad and clumsy thing to write off the majority as loving or hating for how the films turned out.

It's no different from A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones. Some love it while others despise how it utilizes certain story lines and characters. You'd be surprised how much that gets trashed by die-hard GRRM fans.
 
For those who have read the lord of the rings books, were the movie adaptations that different and against the spirit of the books? Up until now i've been constantly hearing that it was a good adaptation.

I think large parts of the book (ex. "A Short Cut to Mushrooms" through "Flight to the Ford") were pretty much wrecked in the name of making it palatable to the general movie-going audience. I firmly believe people would have been fascinated by Farmer Maggot, Tom Bombadil, the Barrow-wights, and their rescue by Glorfindel.

Other parts were okay and some were good. The way Saruman was killed was completely and utterly ridiculous and really ruined what might have been other really interesting (for the general movie-going audience) scenes. I'd maybe give it a C (or maybe a C+ since I just finished up a breakfast laced with mimosas :woot:). The Hobbit, on the other hand, I won't bother to rate. There are SO many problems, I can't go into them all. Obviously the whole thing with Esgaroth (Lake-Town) was just silly and didn't really add to the story (IMO). We've discussed the age problem with Aragorn (being 10 at the time). The really weird thing about that is that I can't think of ANY reason to screw with his age whatsoever. Why? So Thranduil can say to Legolas to go seek out some 27 year old Dunedain??? I probably would have been more freaked out if Aragorn actually participated in the Battle (27 being young for the Dunedain), but at LEAST there would have been a reason for screwing with his age. I dunno.....Peter Jackson whiffed.

EDIT: Oh yeah.....In case you haven't noticed, I can be classified as a "purist". :shrug:

Further EDIT: I thought Martin Freeman was as good as anyone could have hoped (considering the script). Excellent work on his part.
 
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The audience may have been interested by the Barrow Wights but them and Farmer Maggot and especially the momentum stopping Tom Bombadil were entirely unnecessary for the film. A shortcut to mushroom functions very well in the film. It has elements from the books to make it recognizable, but it keeps the pace up and heightens it and it sets up the rider as a genuinely scary presence. There are more than one way to skin a cat and Tolkien's first third of FOTR meanders entirely too much for a three hour film. Things needed to be dropped, condensed, altered, and shifted to make the film function like a film and less like a nature hike of the greater Shire. It's fine to love Tolkien's work, we all do, but these are adaptations and films and what works in the books doesn't always make for good cinema. Things have to be altered.

I'm not saying Jackson's way is the only way or the best way, but another director would have made changes as well and cut stuff. I doubt any director would include Tom Bombadil. It's just not realistic or reasonable to want the films to include characters or scenes that have zero bearing on the greater plot.
 
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I think that's probably right. The three movie format is a compromise in itself which inevitably warps the story.
 
The audience may have been interested by the Barrow Wights but them and Farmer Maggot and especially the momentum stopping Tom Bombadil were entirely unnecessary for the film. A shortcut to mushroom functions very well in the film. It has elements from the books to make it recognizable, but it keeps the pace up and heightens it and it sets up the rider as a genuinely scary presence. There are more than one way to skin a cat and Tolkien's first third of FOTR meanders entirely too much for a three hour film. Things needed to be dropped, condensed, altered, and shifted to make the film function like a film and less like a nature hike of the greater Shire. It's fine to love Tolkien's work, we all do, but these are adaptations and films and what works in the books doesn't always make for good cinema. Things have to be altered.

I'm not saying Jackson's way is the only way or the best way, but another director would have made changes as well and cut stuff. I doubt any director would include Tom Bombadil. It's just not realistic or reasonable to want the films to include characters or scenes that have zero bearing on the greater plot.

Well, I see why you picked your name oh evil one :cwink:

We can disagree on this. I can absolutely see a more faithful telling of the parts in question not being too slow. Here's how I see it:

Rescued from Old Man Willow by Bombadil
A respite and advice from him
Leaving his house and getting caught by the Barrow-wights
Their rescue and safe passage to Bree

There are several instances of similar situations on the quest (probably the most notable being Rivendell and Lothlorien, but there are others).

The only difference with Iarwain Ben-adar (Bombadil) is that he isn't really well defined in the Tolkien mythology (It may be that he was pulled in there by JRR himself without really being part of the fully fleshed out history of middle earth). There have been suggestions that he is of the Maiar, Valar, Eru Iluvatar himself, etc., but he doesn't seem to fit into any of these molds. My take is that he may be the embodiment of Middle-earth and its creation itself.

Gandalf himself said at the Counsel of Elrond that he thought that if all else was conquered, that Bombadil himself would fall last (as he was the first).

THE most interesting aspect of Bombadil is that he was TOTALLY unaffected by the ring. If it had been left with him, he would have forgotten about it or lost it as it would have no hold on his mind. So, not a Maiar (as were Saruman and Gandalf) or even a Vala. Eru Iluvatar??? Highly unlikely.

My take is that Bombadil was unique and could have been a very interesting character. On top of that, I don't believe FotR needed to be compressed the way in which it was. It could have been longer and more inclusive. If it took 4 or 5 hours, fine. Edit it and break it up into 2 films (PJ is GREAT at that) to be shown maybe 4 or 5 months apart. I'm not saying the time frames are a blueprint, but something could have been worked out and I think people would have enjoyed it.
 
I think that's probably right. The three movie format is a compromise in itself which inevitably warps the story.

Ding, ding, ding.....and the grand prize winner is......
 
I think that's probably right. The three movie format is a compromise in itself which inevitably warps the story.

I dunno if breaking it into more films would help. I can see Marvolo's point about film pacing, which is why I am more inclined to really understand Christopher Tolkien's objection to film adaptation, the LOTR as told by Tolkien is not really adaptable to film. It is a story designed for the written word. In that medium alone does it find its full expression.
 
Do extended editions sell well? As you can get a decent amount of content into 3 mega EEs (as opposed to regular EEs). And I think if they'd known how successful the films were going to be they would have made 6 instead of 3. It was still very much a high risk project till FotR's grosses came in.
 
Do extended editions sell well? As you can get a decent amount of content into 3 mega EEs (as opposed to regular EEs). And I think if they'd known how successful the films were going to be they would have made 6 instead of 3. It was still very much a high risk project till FotR's grosses came in.

I think it was the Harry Potter franchise where people first said hey I've got an idea let's break this movie up into two. After that, well, we all know what happened. I agree they would've done six movies if only they'd known and, if handled properly, it would've been wildly successful.it would've been more work, but it would've been wildly successful.

I only have the Lord of the rings extended edition. I like the little statuettes I got the pillars of the Kings, Mina's tiring and doll him.

This is awesome. I'm using the voice recognition on my iPad mini and the last two statuettes came out hysterically, I especially like Doll him instead of Gollum. I had to abandon the voice recognition on the last part in order to get my little friend to enter Gollum. :lmao:
 
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Do extended editions sell well? As you can get a decent amount of content into 3 mega EEs (as opposed to regular EEs). And I think if they'd known how successful the films were going to be they would have made 6 instead of 3. It was still very much a high risk project till FotR's grosses came in.

That being said, extended editions are just a way for people to screw you out of more money.
 
I think it was the Harry Potter franchise where people first said hey I've got an idea let's break this movie up into two. After that, well, we all know what happened. I agree they would've done six movies if only they'd known and, if handled properly, it would've been wildly successful.it would've been more work, but it would've been wildly successful.

I only have the Lord of the rings extended edition. I like the little statuettes I got the pillars of the Kings, Mina's tiring and doll him.

This is awesome. I'm using the voice recognition on my iPad mini and the last two statuettes came out hysterically, I especially like Doll him instead of Gollum. I had to abandon the voice recognition on the last part in order to get my little friend to enter Gollum. :lmao:
Pirates & Matrix split up their 2nd and 3rd films although they aren't actually based on a specific book.

LotR is an epic enough story that it could have filled 6 films and I'd welcome it in that kind of case. The Hobbit on the other hand does not have material for 3 films.

It would have been more work and more upfront cost but would also have done a lot more in total at the worldwide box office and sold a lot more DVDs. I only watch the EEs now.


That being said, extended editions are just a way for people to screw you out of more money.
I don't mind if the films themeselves are good. It's not like I have to buy them. For LotR the thatrical cuts were good for GA and the EEs good for fans. In that instance I'm happy to get both. If I feel screwed I just don't buy and let them waste their effort.
 
Even with EE's, each movie has to be structured in a way that feels satisfactory. Each of the three movies are, in fact, attempting to fuse together two different books,* and attempting to do so in a way that creates a new narrative chunk with a beginning, middle and end. That will inevitably bend things out of shape, as small matters are given precedence and large matters are truncated, in order to fit. Obvious examples in Jackson's movies are the compression of the hobbits' escape from the Shire into a couple of chance encounters with Black Riders, and the creation of a named villain for Strider to kill at the end of FOTR.

* For those who don't know, LOTR was written as six books, and was only published in three volumes in order to keep down the cost of materials in the post war years of rationing.
 
Ideally there'd be 6 EEs. :cool:
 
That would be ideal, but the six-book format was designed to follow different branches of the tale in turn. It may have been difficult to market a movie in which the audience would only really see Frodo, Sam and Gollum, plus a few chance meetings.
 
That would be ideal, but the six-book format was designed to follow different branches of the tale in turn. It may have been difficult to market a movie in which the audience would only really see Frodo, Sam and Gollum, plus a few chance meetings.

I think the fellowship would've been perfect to film book.i'm still using voice recognition by the way. After the breaking of the fellowship, things might been a little bit more problematic. Still,I believe that could've been worked out.The fellowship is a perfect start to the war of the ring and should have been handled more accurately.

I like my iPad but I don't think professor told Ken would have approved. :lmao:
 
Pirates & Matrix split up their 2nd and 3rd films although they aren't actually based on a specific book.

LotR is an epic enough story that it could have filled 6 films and I'd welcome it in that kind of case. The Hobbit on the other hand does not have material for 3 films.

It would have been more work and more upfront cost but would also have done a lot more in total at the worldwide box office and sold a lot more DVDs. I only watch the EEs now.


I don't mind if the films themeselves are good. It's not like I have to buy them. For LotR the thatrical cuts were good for GA and the EEs good for fans. In that instance I'm happy to get both. If I feel screwed I just don't buy and let them waste their effort.


I liked the first matrix, but didn't really follow the genesis of those. Same with the first Pirates.
 
That would be ideal, but the six-book format was designed to follow different branches of the tale in turn. It may have been difficult to market a movie in which the audience would only really see Frodo, Sam and Gollum, plus a few chance meetings.

Yeah, they'd have to progress all the storylines within each film rather than switch between films. Can be done without too much pain as the actual EEs used 6 artificial splits that weren't too jarring. And Game of Thrones is taking parts from various books (which also split whole storylines and groups of characters into different books after the first few) and allocating them to different seasons, advancing some storylines much faster than in the books and almost halting others while everything catches up. All part of adapting an epic work.
 
Playing the hell out of Shadow of Mordor, and considering their views on the films, I can only imagine what the Tolkein estate thinks of a game like this haha

It was an unusual experience finishing the Hobbit trilogy. I went into each film hoping to be taken back to that feeling I had for LOTR, and came out unsatisfied each time. By the last film I was much better prepared, but for everything that felt just perfect, you had something like a CG Billy Connelly dragging me out of it. They are not Star Wars prequels by any means, but there are certainly some similarities in their excesses and lack of focus. Regardless, I just got done watching all of the behind the scenes material for parts 1 & 2 and appreciate all the love and work that went into them.

I can't wait for the eventual Hobbit fan-edits that will follow the home release of BOTFA, because I strongly feel a massive trim could make this trilogy a much better experience.
 
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Yeah it's a lot of fun, though I'm sure it's also a horror story for purists. The only thing that bugs me are the creatures that appear to be essentially Wargs and Trolls, but named other things.
 
Oh yeah, its one of those things where if you were playing it with a purist they'd consistently point out the deviations from Tolkien's narrative and decry it as terrible. I personally love how it uses references to the Silmarillion and twists it into it's own thing. Celebrimbor was great.
 
Yeah, they did a good job bending lore into great game mechanics and story devices. I would welcome a sequel that let you explore other locations too. Middle earth has some awesome places to sneak about and kill things in lol
 
Considering Shadows of Mordor, wouldn't WB be able to do original stories set within the timeframe of the books they oun?
 
Even with EE's, each movie has to be structured in a way that feels satisfactory. Each of the three movies are, in fact, attempting to fuse together two different books,* and attempting to do so in a way that creates a new narrative chunk with a beginning, middle and end. That will inevitably bend things out of shape, as small matters are given precedence and large matters are truncated, in order to fit. Obvious examples in Jackson's movies are the compression of the hobbits' escape from the Shire into a couple of chance encounters with Black Riders, and the creation of a named villain for Strider to kill at the end of FOTR.

* For those who don't know, LOTR was written as six books, and was only published in three volumes in order to keep down the cost of materials in the post war years of rationing.

That's actually incorrect. It uses a six book structure, but LOTR was always written as ONE book. Not three. Not six. The publisher made Tolkien split it into three, but he was very much against it.
 
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