Prometheus - Part 8

[spider-neil]

FOX, please put the director's cut and the theatrical cut on the same disk. I really like Prometheus but I'd rather not double dip for it.

 

[thorstone]

I think they cut the elder from the film because they want to redesign them for the sequel; so they look as different from the jockeys as the jockeys are different from us.

After getting a better look at the jockey's "suit," I think it's actually part of their body. It would seem they have modified their own biology since the opening scene where the Igigi is fleshy.

 

[spider-neil]

I think they cut the elder from the film because they want to redesign them for the sequel; so they look as different from the jockeys as the jockeys are different from us.

After getting a better look at the jockey's "suit," I think it's actually part of their body. It would seem they have modified their own biology since the opening scene where the Igigi is fleshy.

I'm hoping there is hours of supplementle material on the Blu ray.
I tend not to watch extras (after from effects reels) but I will make an exception in the case of Prometheus.

 

[spider-neil]

[YT]H2f3dhRMG6A&feature=g-all-u[/YT]

They rip into Prometheus but I couldn't care less, the more I think about Prometheus the more I love it.

 

[Silvermoth]

Well, if they want the sequel to do well and make enough money to do another...that wouldn't be a very good idea.

They probably said that about Ripley being a woman and an action hero in the sequel to Alien.

 

[regwec]

Spoiler

But the statement doesn't necessarily mean that David believes Halloway will turn into a monster, only that grave consequences - like, helping to dismantle the Ottomon Empire and remove some of Germany's firepower via the Arab Revolt (a "sideshow", as it's called in Lawrence of Arabia) - can arise from seemingly innocuous circumstances. Imagine, a tiny blob of genetic goop granting immortality (as Weyland hopes), or giving birth to a massive alien creature (as eventually happens).

Given that the goop could kill Halloway, David's programming likely did require some form of "consent", thought I highly doubt he had any idea what would come of it until Halloway got sick. From that point - and after making the likely assumption that Halloway and Shaw had slept together, David would've been equally curious to see what would come of their sexy-time.

I didn't read it as him checking with her before telling her, but comfirming what he already surmised. They boinked, and Halloway "infected her".

Well, yes, you agree then: David was "curious".

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I need some help to understand various details of the alien fauna, and what does what.

In the movie "Alien", alien eggs break open, and a facehugger emerges. The facehugger impregnates a victim, and then bursts out of their abdomen as a fully formed (though small) Xenomorph. It then grows to adult size remarkably quickly, without seeming to need to absorb any matter to do so.

In "Aliens", the cocoon phase is introduced, where human victims are cocooned either before or after impregnation by a facehugger. This is a bit confusing. I suppose that they are cocooned first so that they are a nearby receptacle for the facehuggers once they hatch from their eggs, and then remain captive until the Xenomorph bursts free.

Spoiler

Now, in Prometheus, some of the fauna seems to correspond to what we know about Xenemorphic physiology, but some of it seems to work differently. In place of eggs, at this stage, there are what appear to be graphite cylinders, doubtless of industrial manufacture. There is living tissue within. Where does that tissue come from? There is no Queen around, and if there were, she presumably wouldn't lay graphite tubes. So perhaps the genetic material is entirely engineered. That's fine, but at what stage were egg-laying Queens developed? It doesn't seem credible that the engineers would have designed them, because a Queen is inevitably an extremely powerful, dangerous and independent creature who would likely be impossible to control, and whose brood would likely be impossible to contain. So did Queens evolve? I don't see how. Gender differentiation must occur the very early stages of the evolutionary tree (premammalian in our case), so I don't see how it could have developed once the Xenomorphs were established as bipedal vertebrates, no matter how much they changed otherwise. Even it was possible, it would require millions of years, especially since the Xenemorphs' birth and death rate is very low at this stage. I can't understand this at all.

Secondly, how does the genetic material in the cylinders behave? It appears to be a inanimate ooze when David first investigates it. But there are "worms" on the ground. How do the two relate? When the lost astronauts return to the chamber, they are attacked and killed by serpentine beings of considerable strength and ferocity. Are these supposed to have "hatched" from the cylinders, or are they the "worms", having undergone a vastly accelerated growth?

The latter seems more likely given the fate of Holloway. David tricks him into ingesting the "ooze" from a cylinder. He then seems to mutate into a hyper-aggressive, super-strong monster who is almost invulnerable. Did the same thing happen to Holloway as happened to the "worms"?

That would be fairly satisfactory- the engineers' biological weapon is an "ooze" that effectively "weaponises" any lifeforms on which they care to use it. But how, then, do we explain Shaw's freak pregnancy, and the physiology of the creature that grows within her? Holloway was undergoing a transformation when the two had sex, and the insinuation is clearly that the creature was transmitted to Shaw in Holloway's sperm. Was the creature a super-mutated sperm, effected by the "ooze"? That doesn't seem likely, because its physiology was too complex. It had too many tentacles, and gnashing mouths. So, it has to be an "original" alien creature. So, were the cylinders supposed to be carrying the seed of these squid-like creatures? If so, are we supposed to believe that the "weaponising ooze" is relatively incidental, like an egg-white to its yolk? That doesn't seem credible, since the effects of the ooze are so dramatic, and David clearly has ideas about what to do with it.

And how are these squid creatures usually born? It seems impractical for them to rely on being ingested and then planted inside another creature's womb. And why were the "worm/serpents" so keen to get inside peoples' throats? Presumably to get access to their gastric tracts, were they could either gestate or lay eggs to incubate. So, we're returning to the idea that the "squids" are usually born when the "serpents" impregnate a victim. Where the "worms" just "worms" then, independent of the "serpents"? Or where they indeed one and the same, and just a minor alien species that happened to be effected by the "weaponising ooze"? I actually like that, because it ultimately preserves the idea that the Xenomorphs are primarily a product of nature rather than design.

The problem with it, however, is the worm/serpent/squid/Xenomorph lifecycle. Unlike the facehugger from "Alien" and "Aliens", which simply looks to feed and reproduce once it has burst from a human victim as a fully formed adolescent Xenomorph, the "squid" seeks to impregnate another being again. Despite its enormous size and strength, its immediate priority when it meets with the engineer is to thrust its sex organs into his (?) throat, and impregnate him with a version of the Xenomorph we know. Several questions are raised by this. Firstly, why isn't the enormous and powerful "supersquid" the finished article? Secondly, why is its offspring so obviously physiologically different? I can accept "worm" > "serpent" and even "worm" > "serpent" > "squid" > "supersquid", but how can it be "worm" > "serpent" > "squid" > "supersquid" > "biped vertebrate with exoskeleton"? The last part just doesn't ring true, since the "proto-Xenomorph" doesn't resemble and of the previous stages in its life cycle at all. The Xenomorph does look a bit like the facehugger that creates it in "Alien", but its inception by the "supersquid" seems highly implausible. Finally, why would a species have three stages of generation (birth, metamorphosis to squid, metamorphosis to Xenomorph)? It seems contrived and I can't imagine an evolutionary basis for it, particularly since a stage has been shed by the time we meet these creatures in "Alien", just thirty years later.

So, I cannot come up with a coherent theory that explains the ooze and its effects, the lack of a Queen, the worms, the serpents, the life cycle of the squid; and how all of these refine themselves to create the Xenomophs, who have a clear and understandable reproduction based on Queens and eggs, and a clear one-stage metamorphosis from face-hugger to adult.

Your thoughts please!

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

i am sad that they didnt explore the questions enough .

maybe if they would focus on just one question and then make the story about it it would have a stronge story. to bad for me

I don't really think the film had plot holes so much as plot tangents that went nowhere. There was just a lack of focus.

There's still a lot to like about the movie, but I don't love it. It very easily could have been better. The talent and the resources were there, but for me personally it just never really came together.

I personally thought it answered some questions while asking others, for example, we now know what the Space Jockey is and its role in the grand scheme of things, we now know were the Xenomorph came from also.

The only things that need answering are how that ship got onto LV-426, and how all of the eggs got onto it and how the SJ got infected. I felt the movie gave enough info to have a good guess though.

 

[dark_b]

i dont think we know exactly what the space jockey is. right now if you answer to me what he is i am sure you will speculate a lot based on Lindelof's and Scott's interviews and based on what we know from the making of.

not trying to say that its bad that we dont know. but i am noticing that some think that they got answers. but we didnt. sorry.

we know that the engineer in the beginning created life . we only have confirmation from the vfx team and the interviews that its meant to be earth. we also know that the black goo is bad . but we dont know what it is. everything that Janek says to Shaw is 100% speculation .

 

[redhawk23]

The way I see it...the first film should be about asking the question...the next film answering some of the questions...and asking some more questions and then finally the third film answers everything.

Even in a series films should be able to work on their own terms. 2001 might be 3 hours long, or nearly, but it gets the job done.

 

[redhawk23]

I personally thought it answered some questions while asking others, for example, we now know what the Space Jockey is and its role in the grand scheme of things, we now know were the Xenomorph came from also.

The only things that need answering are how that ship got onto LV-426, and how all of the eggs got onto it and how the SJ got infected. I felt the movie gave enough info to have a good guess though.

Not exactly what I was talking about.

 

[dark_b]

The way I see it...the first film should be about asking the question...the next film answering some of the questions...and asking some more questions and then finally the third film answers everything.

Damon Lindelof is that you? its you right? t:

i swear that Damon Lindelof said that same thing after every Lost finale.

 

[henzINNIT]

Even in a series films should be able to work on their own terms. 2001 might be 3 hours long, or nearly, but it gets the job done.

I'm actually fine with the lingering questions. These alien lifeforms are more interesting if we don't fully understand them. What bugs me is the "Next Time on Prometheus!" ending with the mission to another planet and the alien birth.

This film has stuck with me since seeing it, but I'd be so much more happy with it if the ending left me wanting more and not just expecting it.

 

[THANOSRULES]

Well, yes, you agree then: David was "curious".

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I need some help to understand various details of the alien fauna, and what does what.

In the movie "Alien", alien eggs break open, and a facehugger emerges. The facehugger impregnates a victim, and then bursts out of their abdomen as a fully formed (though small) Xenomorph. It then grows to adult size remarkably quickly, without seeming to need to absorb any matter to do so.

In "Aliens", the cocoon phase is introduced, where human victims are cocooned either before or after impregnation by a facehugger. This is a bit confusing. I suppose that they are cocooned first so that they are a nearby receptacle for the facehuggers once they hatch from their eggs, and then remain captive until the Xenomorph bursts free.

Spoiler

Now, in Prometheus, some of the fauna seems to correspond to what we know about Xenemorphic physiology, but some of it seems to work differently. In place of eggs, at this stage, there are what appear to be graphite cylinders, doubtless of industrial manufacture. There is living tissue within. Where does that tissue come from? There is no Queen around, and if there were, she presumably wouldn't lay graphite tubes. So perhaps the genetic material is entirely engineered. That's fine, but at what stage were egg-laying Queens developed? It doesn't seem credible that the engineers would have designed them, because a Queen is inevitably an extremely powerful, dangerous and independent creature who would likely be impossible to control, and whose brood would likely be impossible to contain. So did Queens evolve? I don't see how. Gender differentiation must occur the very early stages of the evolutionary tree (premammalian in our case), so I don't see how it could have developed once the Xenomorphs were established as bipedal vertebrates, no matter how much they changed otherwise. Even it was possible, it would require millions of years, especially since the Xenemorphs' birth and death rate is very low at this stage. I can't understand this at all.

Secondly, how does the genetic material in the cylinders behave? It appears to be a inanimate ooze when David first investigates it. But there are "worms" on the ground. How do the two relate? When the lost astronauts return to the chamber, they are attacked and killed by serpentine beings of considerable strength and ferocity. Are these supposed to have "hatched" from the cylinders, or are they the "worms", having undergone a vastly accelerated growth?

The latter seems more likely given the fate of Holloway. David tricks him into ingesting the "ooze" from a cylinder. He then seems to mutate into a hyper-aggressive, super-strong monster who is almost invulnerable. Did the same thing happen to Holloway as happened to the "worms"?

That would be fairly satisfactory- the engineers' biological weapon is an "ooze" that effectively "weaponises" any lifeforms on which they care to use it. But how, then, do we explain Shaw's freak pregnancy, and the physiology of the creature that grows within her? Holloway was undergoing a transformation when the two had sex, and the insinuation is clearly that the creature was transmitted to Shaw in Holloway's sperm. Was the creature a super-mutated sperm, effected by the "ooze"? That doesn't seem likely, because its physiology was too complex. It had too many tentacles, and gnashing mouths. So, it has to be an "original" alien creature. So, were the cylinders supposed to be carrying the seed of these squid-like creatures? If so, are we supposed to believe that the "weaponising ooze" is relatively incidental, like an egg-white to its yolk? That doesn't seem credible, since the effects of the ooze are so dramatic, and David clearly has ideas about what to do with it.

And how are these squid creatures usually born? It seems impractical for them to rely on being ingested and then planted inside another creature's womb. And why were the "worm/serpents" so keen to get inside peoples' throats? Presumably to get access to their gastric tracts, were they could either gestate or lay eggs to incubate. So, we're returning to the idea that the "squids" are usually born when the "serpents" impregnate a victim. Where the "worms" just "worms" then, independent of the "serpents"? Or where they indeed one and the same, and just a minor alien species that happened to be effected by the "weaponising ooze"? I actually like that, because it ultimately preserves the idea that the Xenomorphs are primarily a product of nature rather than design.

The problem with it, however, is the worm/serpent/squid/Xenomorph lifecycle. Unlike the facehugger from "Alien" and "Aliens", which simply looks to feed and reproduce once it has burst from a human victim as a fully formed adolescent Xenomorph, the "squid" seeks to impregnate another being again. Despite its enormous size and strength, its immediate priority when it meets with the engineer is to thrust its sex organs into his (?) throat, and impregnate him with a version of the Xenomorph we know. Several questions are raised by this. Firstly, why isn't the enormous and powerful "supersquid" the finished article? Secondly, why is its offspring so obviously physiologically different? I can accept "worm" > "serpent" and even "worm" > "serpent" > "squid" > "supersquid", but how can it be "worm" > "serpent" > "squid" > "supersquid" > "biped vertebrate with exoskeleton"? The last part just doesn't ring true, since the "proto-Xenomorph" doesn't resemble and of the previous stages in its life cycle at all. The Xenomorph does look a bit like the facehugger that creates it in "Alien", but its inception by the "supersquid" seems highly implausible. Finally, why would a species have three stages of generation (birth, metamorphosis to squid, metamorphosis to Xenomorph)? It seems contrived and I can't imagine an evolutionary basis for it, particularly since a stage has been shed by the time we meet these creatures in "Alien", just thirty years later.

So, I cannot come up with a coherent theory that explains the ooze and its effects, the lack of a Queen, the worms, the serpents, the life cycle of the squid; and how all of these refine themselves to create the Xenomophs, who have a clear and understandable reproduction based on Queens and eggs, and a clear one-stage metamorphosis from face-hugger to adult.

Your thoughts please!

It doesnt need to make total sense, it is obviously some sort of self perpetuating biological weapon that will mutate and see different results for different environments/prey/etc.

It is likely extremely advanced, and perhaps the engineers themselves dont know all the variables and possibilities.

As for Knowing to go for the throat..its likely that part of an effective weapon is an aspect of matching instincts for whatever it develops into. IE born with instincts..not unlike a horse being able to run very quickly, just more extreme.

I don't have a problem with the confusion...

As for the "cocoon" phase..it's just a likely reaction to storing potential hosts when there is not enough face huggers yet to compensate..it just shows intelligence and self perpetuation, given the plot of Aline vs Aliens, it's not surprising it didnt come up in the first film.

 

[regwec]

That's fine to a degree, but the beauty of the Xenomorph from 'Alien' is that it has a totally alien but more or less believable physiology and life cycle. The exceptions to that are the fact that it can grow without eating and that it has acid for blood.

To me, there seems to be a genuine paradox in the relationship of [BLACKOUT]the goo, the serpents, the squid and the Xenomorph[/BLACKOUT]; and a large degree of incompatibility with what we know of the Xenomorphs from 'Alien'.

I think these movies, and sci fi in general, rest heavily on things having their own sort of logic. Alien 1-3 all work on that level, but Prometheus is harder to understand. You are probably right to say that the "weapon" is adaptable and therefore behaves inconsistently at times, but I don't think that an account for its totally variable life cycle, as I pointed out in my longer post.

 

[redhawk23]

I'm actually fine with the lingering questions. These alien lifeforms are more interesting if we don't fully understand them. What bugs me is the "Next Time on Prometheus!" ending with the mission to another planet and the alien birth.

This film has stuck with me since seeing it, but I'd be so much more happy with it if the ending left me wanting more and not just expecting it.

2001 for example has lingering questions. We don't know anything really about who sent the monoliths.

What I mean though is that thematically 2001 gets several points across. It has something to say rather than just bringing up questions.

And its not as if 2001 is a film that holds anyone's hand.
Rather than just have its characters ask each other "What is man kinds relationship to technology?" repeatedly, the film examines the relationship through the various events of the film. It offers a particular viewpoint, a possible answer to that question, even if it never directly asks or answers the question.

Its a film with something say, rather than just with questions to ask, and its hardly a movie that holds anyone's hand.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

i dont think we know exactly what the space jockey is. right now if you answer to me what he is i am sure you will speculate a lot based on Lindelof's and Scott's interviews and based on what we know from the making of.

not trying to say that its bad that we dont know. but i am noticing that some think that they got answers. but we didnt. sorry.

we know that the engineer in the beginning created life . we only have confirmation from the vfx team and the interviews that its meant to be earth. we also know that the black goo is bad . but we dont know what it is. everything that Janek says to Shaw is 100% speculation .

Sorry darkb, but I do think we got answers, they werent definitive, no, they were vague, but we still got them. I think we do know what the space jockey is, its an Engineer of life, we know they created humans and xenomorphs, who knows what other species they have created. We know they are an advanced race who take it upon themselves to act as Gods in that they create and can destroy life and feel it is their duty to do so.

Regarding the opening scene, my dad didnt read any interviews before seeing the movie he knew the planet was Earth, personally I thought it was pretty obvious.

Not exactly what I was talking about.

Fair enough.

 

[Doctor Jones]

My friends kept asking me the reason why the Engineer took the black stuff at the opening of the film. It kind of seemed like the ship cast him out and forced him to take it to test it. But it looked a bit more organized than a simple exile.

 

[dark_b]

to bad that they cut down the original opening

 

[regwec]

we know they created humans and xenomorphs

Mmm. We know are DNA is almost identical to ours, and there are hints that they created us, but no tangible evidence. The cave paintings indicate that the Engineers enjoyed a divine status amongst us, but not that they were our creators as such. Shaw, Holloway et al draw that conclusion, but I don't think it is beyond doubt. Much rests on your interpretation of the opening scene. It is implied that the Engineer sacrificed himself to create life. Okay, but what life? I forget whether Earth in that scene had any greenery, but I think I recall at least moss or algae or something, in which case life was already here. Are we saying that the Engineer created us alone, since his DNA is ours? Well, what about are evolutionary tree, then? We can trace our origins through archaic primates and smaller mammalian quadrupeds before that. You could argue that the Engineer created all advanced (animal) life on Earth. But why, then, is our DNA the same as his, and why would he "birth" the archaic creatures of Earth's earlier evolutionary history, when his DNA is the same as ours? It's another logical paradox, that I can't reason away.

As for the Xenomorphs, did the Engineers create them, or did they merely 'weaponise' them? Please read my longer post (in spoiler tags), because I would genuinely be interested to hear everyone's thoughts on the questions therein.

 

[dark_b]

it looks like xenomorphs were created by accident. because if the squid would not attack the engineer the xenomorphs wouldnt exist. fo the squid to attack the enginner first the goo had to be inside a human and then create the squid inside a human.

 

[spider-neil]

to bad that they cut down the original opening

Personally I always think it's a bad idea to put something significant at the very start of them movie and you tend to not pay as close attention in the first couple of minutes. I remember in The Prestige they pretty much show you the trick in the opening shot and it washes over you so quickly that you forget about it.

If the opening were longer you would remember it more and then apply that opening sequence to the rest of the movie.

 

[Doctor Jones]

What was the original opening?

 

[spider-neil]

What was the original opening?

I think the Engineer's suicide is flesh out more.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Mmm. We know are DNA is almost identical to ours, and there are hints that they created us, but no tangible evidence. The cave paintings indicate that the Engineers enjoyed a divine status amongst us, but not that they were our creators as such. Shaw, Holloway et al draw that conclusion, but I don't think it is beyond doubt. Much rests on your interpretation of the opening scene. It is implied that the Engineer sacrificed himself to create life. Okay, but what life? I forget whether Earth in that scene had any greenery, but I think I recall at least moss or algae or something, in which case life was already here. Are we saying that the Engineer created us alone, since his DNA is ours? Well, what about are evolutionary tree, then? We can trace our origins through archaic primates and smaller mammalian quadrupeds before that. You could argue that the Engineer created all advanced (animal) life on Earth. But why, then, is our DNA the same as his, and why would he "birth" the archaic creatures of Earth's earlier evolutionary history, when his DNA is the same as ours? It's another logical paradox, that I can't reason away.

My interpretation of the opening scene was that from the Engineer drinking the black goo he created all intelligent life on earth. He basically started evolution, falling into the water is why the first creature were water based, before going on land, etc, etc.

My interpretation of the cave paintings was that the Engineers have visited the planet since to see how their creations have been doing, maybe stirring them in the direction they want.

As for the Xenomorphs, did the Engineers create them, or did they merely 'weaponise' them? Please read my longer post (in spoiler tags), because I would genuinely be interested to hear everyone's thoughts on the questions therein.

Well, essentially they did create them, the black goo got into Holloway, he mated with Shaw, she gave birth to the squid thing which impregnated the Jockey, from which the proto-xenomorph sprouted. Now how it got from that state to the Alien we know is a question for the sequel.

 

[chaseter]

It looks like they worshipped the Xenomorph. That elaborate cave etching and the green rock or whatever it was. Maybe that's like their god of death/destruction.