The Dark Knight Rises Should Batman be "the world's greatest detective"?

[batman11]

But I'm also a sworn enemy of hyperbole. And sorry, to say there was no detective work in these movies simply isn't true.

but teh computerz and internetz duz all the work!

 

[GothamAlleys]

No ones saying theres no detective work. Were saying that Batman mostly or fully uses the gadgets and in a small way that is detective work, but a detective work that anybodt could do as oppose to using a unique intellect skills. We're talking about Batman being exceptional detective like in comics, when by the time hes in his late teens hes already as skilled physically and in mind control as he is as Batman, and he finds the greatest detective alive to teach him and both solve the biggest case. Since this thread is talking about Batman being an exceptional detective, the way he does the work doesnt make it look like hes above any average person with the right equipemnt. In addition to that, he received no special and most likely no detective training at all so why would he be? Some people show the traces of those extremist fans that everyone remembers from years back - every single thing thats not a praise is taken as criticism and the person is called a hater. Lets all act like adults here and discuss like adults. By saying that Nolans Batman isnt the world greatest detetcive it doesnt mean that one has tro be attacked and called up and ridiculed. I even said I dont see it as anything wrong , its just a different approach. Theres plenty things that were completely changed and redone in characters in the movies (although I personally dont care at all if its like comics or not, I care if its good), and thats just a different approach and presentation of characters and plots. Saying its not like in the comics or that hes missing something that he has in the comics is not a criticism. And none of the movies show that Batman is any exceptional mental detective that he is (was) in the comics. Perhaps Forever was the closest to it

 

[GothamAlleys]

The gadget he used to reconstruct the bullet was pretty smart.

The problem is, that, spying on people, researching, gathering information and interrogating is what we've seen.

These are things a LOT of people can do. And that's all well and good. I'm glad we've seen those things. They add value.

But to fully realize Batman's potential as a crimefighter, or to even come close, there's another half, the almost impossible, Holmsian, super deduction element that just makes Batman seem absolutely brilliant. We haven't seen that yet. We've just seen Bruce telling people what he's already learned by interrogating people or spying, or using his gadgets.

As has been repeated ad nausem here, Batman isn't just a detective.

He is the world's greatest detective.

We haven't seen that yet. We've seen a man with nigh unlimited resources using them to find information.

Exactly


And since some people go crazy and resort to mocking when NOlan's Batman isnt called the master detective, ok, lets for a second give you that as say what he does IS a great detective work. He spies, he uses computer to find suspects for him and their adresses, he uses Fox's machine to create a sort of camera to find Joker. Nice. But then again, anyone could do it who would have the equipment. As I said, ANYONE could put that bullet in a computer and get all the answers. ANYONE could hide and listen to someones conversations. That doesnt say much about Batman being an exceptional, superdetective and how special he is in that area.

And ok, lets say with all that that Batman is a good detective. Fine. But the point is, in the comic hes one of, if not THE best detective in the world who uses his mind and intellect to connect things. Example from Forever (which I already mentioned) :Two Face's duality, second anniversary of his capture and the location and existence of second bank in Gotham - that is a quality, classic detective work - figuring out that TF will try to escape and on which day and which place he will target based on those facts and your special detective intellect to think of those facts and connecting the dots. A detective work much, much more impressive than spying on someone hearing "Scarecrow's gonna be at the docs" and saying "oh! I figured out Scarecrow is gonna be at the docs!" or placing a bullet in a computer that identifies suspects for you, sorts out the possibilities and gives you the addresses. Its about having an intellect that few have, not about anybody being able to do that with "search engine"

^THAT is the Batman detective from the comics, and people just say that this exceptional mental skills and intellect is not what we see in the movies, just a very simple, everyone-can-do-it type of detective work with a large help of AI or simply by just getting the answers by overhearing them, not by figuring them out

 

[batman11]

I'm sure some of that was directed at me, and if I offended, I apologize. I really, truly was just kidding. I'm not calling anyone a hater. I too would not mind seeing more detective work, nor do I believe that Nolan's Batman has achieved the WGD monicker in any way yet. I don't think we'll see him achieve it even at the end of Rises, given that Bruce is still starting out, but I'd like to think that we'll see more "detective Bats" in the next one.

Regarding the bullet and computers issue, I still think it very much applies. Bruce had to extract the evidence, use the proper setups and technology, potentially build and augment the technology (it's unwise to assume that the program and scanners set themselves up, waiting to do Bruce's bidding) and come up with the conclusion. I agree that it's not detective work in the traditional sense, but I'd still lump it in there with some of his other detective moments in the films. I think, as mentioned throughout the thread, the issue is that his detective work has been very subtle and of minimal showiness/magnitude, not to mention brushed over and somewhat infrequent in the grand scheme of things.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Its all good batman11, I havent read your post before, and that was the first one so I hope you understand my impression.

Going back to the topic, when I watch Nolan's movies I really dont feel like Im missing anything. Even tho its rather obvious, I havent noticed that this Batman isnt technical until years later someone pointed it out to me, which only shows that lack of some skills dont really take away anything from the story or the character and the story and the character doesnt really feel like an unfinished puzzle

 

[RustyCage]

Well james, I see a lot of repeated arguments I already replied to here, so if you're going to ignore my replies rather than attempt to counter them, I don't see the point in continuing this. Sorry if you somehow got offended by me as well.

 

[Capt Throbberson]

They already started building this in TDK. At the beginning he was a decent detective, investigated, did forensics etc, but by the end he was the only one able figure out the Joker's plan despite the police's doubt. You were seeing the birth of Paranoid Crazy-Prepared Batman.

Batman being "The World's Greatest Detective." doesn't mean show him in a crime lab for the majority of the movie. He earned that title because his mind works on a different level than the police and can piece together even the most ridiculous of clues.

 

[ModestMr.Green]

I'd just like to see him being 'smarter than the average bear.' The guy who sees the possibilities that others don't, and is capable of predicting the behaviour or figuring out the plans of his foes. Little things like when he showed up as Harvey was torturing the schizo, and he knew the guy's identity. But Sherlock Holmes level? Nah.

 

[Polux]

Ok, let´s see...

People aren´t complaining about Batman not being a detective (see the movies again, it´s right there, onscreen, he´s a great detective), what people are complaining about is not seing Batman doing deduction onscreen; i.e: to get to Harvey before he shot Thoman Schift or Gordon´s family, Batman had to deduce where he would be, and he did, we just didn´t get a Sherlock Holmes- like scene with Bat´s inner monologue ("Harvey´s been corrupted by the Joker, he probably wants retribution, who would he go against? Gordon and me of course; where would he do it...?"); we only saw him showing up there (which, again, it´s pretty much Batman´s thing), but it´s pretty logic that he had to deduce that to get there.

And the bullet thing, it´s just ridiculous the way people are underplaying Batman skills there; if anything, that´s the scene that shows you how above everyone else he is (Gordon: "Are you gonna take ballictics out of a shattered bullet?", Bats: "No, fingerprints.", Gordon: "Huh?"); we se Bruce at the bunker shooting at different kinds of bricks and comparing the evidence to them, then he picks the one that matches, he makes a scan of it, then takes it to Fox, who completes the scan and virtualy reconstruct the bullet (Fox: There´s your reconstructed bullet... Wayne: And there´s the fingerprint.); just look at Gordon´s, Alfred´s and Fox´s faces during this whole thing, they had no idea what he was doing, they didn´t understand what he was going for (I particularly like Fox´s face when Wayne says the fingerprint line, the expression in his face is like "Woah man, you´re good!").

During this whole thing Batman shows to be at least two steps ahead of everyone; even top-cop Jim Gordon, even tech-guru Lucious Fox.

Right before getting the brick outta the wall, Bats tells Gordon "I need 10 minutes before your men contaminate the scene.", Gordon tell his men (professional detectives, that is) to leave the scene; why? Because he KNOWS that Batman is way above´em.

Again, what people are complaning about is the lack of onscreen deduction, but the deduction was there, I saw it, I didn´t need to be spoonfed about that.

And seriously guys, this has already gotten ridiculous.


Polux

 

[The Englishman]

Ok, let´s see...

People aren´t complaining about Batman not being a detective (see the movies again, it´s right there, onscreen, he´s a great detective), what people are complaining about is not seing Batman doing deduction onscreen; i.e: to get to Harvey before he shot Thoman Schift or Gordon´s family, Batman had to deduce where he would be, and he did, we just didn´t get a Sherlock Holmes- like scene with Bat´s inner monologue ("Harvey´s been corrupted by the Joker, he probably wants retribution, who would he go against? Gordon and me of course; where would he do it...?"); we only saw him showing up there (which, again, it´s pretty much Batman´s thing), but it´s pretty logic that he had to deduce that to get there.

And the bullet thing, it´s just ridiculous the way people are underplaying Batman skills there; if anything, that´s the scene that shows you how above everyone else he is (Gordon: "Are you gonna take ballictics out of a shattered bullet?", Bats: "No, fingerprints.", Gordon: "Huh?"); we se Bruce at the bunker shooting at different kinds of bricks and comparing the evidence to them, then he picks the one that matches, he makes a scan of it, then takes it to Fox, who completes the scan and virtualy reconstruct the bullet (Fox: There´s your reconstructed bullet... Wayne: And there´s the fingerprint.); just look at Gordon´s, Alfred´s and Fox´s faces during this whole thing, they had no idea what he was doing, they didn´t understand what he was going for (I particularly like Fox´s face when Wayne says the fingerprint line, the expression in his face is like "Woah man, you´re good!").

During this whole thing Batman shows to be at least two steps ahead of everyone; even top-cop Jim Gordon, even tech-guru Lucious Fox.

Right before getting the brick outta the wall, Bats tells Gordon "I need 10 minutes before your men contaminate the scene.", Gordon tell his men (professional detectives, that is) to leave the scene; why? Because he KNOWS that Batman is way above´em.

Again, what people are complaning about is the lack of onscreen deduction, but the deduction was there, I saw it, I didn´t need to be spoonfed about that.

And seriously guys, this has already gotten ridiculous.


Polux

Yeah, what he said....

 

[RustyCage]

Perfect post, Polux.

 

[BestGirl]

Ok, let´s see...

People aren´t complaining about Batman not being a detective (see the movies again, it´s right there, onscreen, he´s a great detective), what people are complaining about is not seing Batman doing deduction onscreen; i.e: to get to Harvey before he shot Thoman Schift or Gordon´s family, Batman had to deduce where he would be, and he did, we just didn´t get a Sherlock Holmes- like scene with Bat´s inner monologue ("Harvey´s been corrupted by the Joker, he probably wants retribution, who would he go against? Gordon and me of course; where would he do it...?"); we only saw him showing up there (which, again, it´s pretty much Batman´s thing), but it´s pretty logic that he had to deduce that to get there.

And the bullet thing, it´s just ridiculous the way people are underplaying Batman skills there; if anything, that´s the scene that shows you how above everyone else he is (Gordon: "Are you gonna take ballictics out of a shattered bullet?", Bats: "No, fingerprints.", Gordon: "Huh?"); we se Bruce at the bunker shooting at different kinds of bricks and comparing the evidence to them, then he picks the one that matches, he makes a scan of it, then takes it to Fox, who completes the scan and virtualy reconstruct the bullet (Fox: There´s your reconstructed bullet... Wayne: And there´s the fingerprint.); just look at Gordon´s, Alfred´s and Fox´s faces during this whole thing, they had no idea what he was doing, they didn´t understand what he was going for (I particularly like Fox´s face when Wayne says the fingerprint line, the expression in his face is like "Woah man, you´re good!").

During this whole thing Batman shows to be at least two steps ahead of everyone; even top-cop Jim Gordon, even tech-guru Lucious Fox.

Right before getting the brick outta the wall, Bats tells Gordon "I need 10 minutes before your men contaminate the scene.", Gordon tell his men (professional detectives, that is) to leave the scene; why? Because he KNOWS that Batman is way above´em.

Again, what people are complaning about is the lack of onscreen deduction, but the deduction was there, I saw it, I didn´t need to be spoonfed about that.

And seriously guys, this has already gotten ridiculous.


Polux

I'm not sure he deduced in either situation. We know he'd been working on a cellphone-tracking device with the government before he used it on the Joker; he might've used it to trace Harvey after Harvey called Rachel.

In the second case, we know Batman listens in on police radio, so he could've overheard Gordon telling the other cops there was a situation at the warehouse where Rachel died.

 

[Bat-Mite]

but teh computerz and internetz duz all the work!

This is why Batman needs to be Amish, so it can be real ye olde detective worke. He needs to have the hat and beard and everything. And he can replace the tumbler with a black horse and a buggy that has batwings on the side!

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Finding a fingerprint from a shattered bullet made it clear Bruce was good with forensic technology.

It's something a techy would do on CSI Miami.

But it's not even close as establishing Batman as a modern-day Sherlock Holmes. Think about the banter in a Sherlock Holmes novel. It is made clear that his brain works on a higher plane of reasoning. The things he deduces using the most basic of clues stuns and amazes the audience.

What is not needed is not sophisticated forensic tech but perhaps a scene where Batman explains how he deduced a a near unsolvable mystery using a string of basic clues with flashbacks retelling each step.

This not only shows that Batman uses cutting edge forensic technology but that he can consistantly cut through the fog using a brilliant deductive mind. A scene like that would make it clear that this guy is a classic world-class detective, not just a CSI knock off.

 

[Polux]

I'm not sure he deduced in either situation. We know he'd been working on a cellphone-tracking device with the government before he used it on the Joker; he might've used it to trace Harvey after Harvey called Rachel.

In the second case, we know Batman listens in on police radio, so he could've overheard Gordon telling the other cops there was a situation at the warehouse where Rachel died.

Dammit Rachel!!!




Polux

 

[GothamAlleys]

Finding a fingerprint from a shattered bullet made it clear Bruce was good with forensic technology.

It's something a techy would do on CSI Miami.

But it's not even close as establishing Batman as a modern-day Sherlock Holmes. Think about the banter in a Sherlock Holmes novel. It is made clear that his brain works on a higher plane of reasoning. The things he deduces using the most basic of clues stuns and amazes the audience.

What is not needed is not sophisticated forensic tech but perhaps a scene where Batman explains how he deduced a a near unsolvable mystery using a string of basic clues with flashbacks retelling each step.

This not only shows that Batman uses cutting edge forensic technology but that he can consistantly cut through the fog using a brilliant deductive mind. A scene like that would make it clear that this guy is a classic world-class detective, not just a CSI knock off.

Thats the point

 

[returntovoid]

They should kill of Lucius Fox or retire him to Wayne Enterprises shareholder or something like that. This should give Batman his chance to show his techy side, you could consider Lucius as his mentor in technological skills while Ducard was his mentor in fighting skills. Enough of lazy Batsy that relies on a Q. He should also fully flesh out his detective skills.

 

[ALP]

Like I said, as far as tech what else do the heck you guys want?

Want to see Batman creating an engine and melding his own batmobile!?

All of the feasible stuff he did himself in BB. He created the cowl, he painted the suit black, he forged the bat-stars. What else can you ask for technically? Want to see him, completely from scratch, build a complex military normex survival suit that usually run about $300,000. All with his own bare hands?

 

[PreK]

Want to see Batman creating an engine and melding his own batmobile!?

Yes.

All of the feasible stuff he did himself in BB. He created the cowl, he painted the suit black, he forged the bat-stars. What else can you ask for technically? Want to see him, completely from scratch, build a complex military normex survival suit that usually run about $300,000. All with his own bare hands?

How about all the gadgetry he's known in the comics to carry? I find it an abomination neither the smoke grenades or batarangs have yet to make an appearance thus far.

 

[ALP]

You have the bat-stars, be happy!

Ra's was showing him smoke powder and such in the beginning of Begins when mentioning theatricality and deception but he never even utilized them as Bats.

 

[KalMart]

Yes.


How about all the gadgetry he's known in the comics to carry? I find it an abomination neither the smoke grenades or batarangs have yet to make an appearance thus far.

This is a different kind of Batman.....but still Batman nonetheless.

 

[PreK]

You have the bat-stars, be happy!

It looked so lethal when Bruce threw it at the wall. Then he actually used it to take out the lights, and it hits the floor with a *clank*. Worse, a thug picks it up and it looks like something that comes in a kid's meal.

Ra's was showing him smoke powder and such in the beginning of Begins when mentioning theatricality and deception but he never even utilized them as Bats.

Yeah that was a bit strange. If there was ever a film to go crazy with his utility, it would have been in the film that beat you over the head with the theme of theatrics.

 

[RustyCage]

Hopefully being hunted will give him reason to use the smoke pellets.

 

[KalMart]

Maybe he is the world's greatest detective....because he can figure out what he does in the time he allots for it. Balancing it between paroling the streets at night and fighting villains, then spending his days as Bruce Wayne. If Batman could figure out in two hours what may take other detectives, say, several long days just being a detective and nothing else....that's pretty-darn great, no? Heck, even if he's the second-greatest....then I'd like to see the first-greatest detective in the world beat up a group of armed thugs, travel incognito to China and extract a prime conspirator, run a multi-billion-dollar business...then ask him how his investigation is going.

 

[ultimatefan]

Batman always walks a fine line, especially in the movies, where he has to be a big time action hero, but also a smart detective and strategist, I think Nolan knows how to balance out the elements. His detective work in TDKR will in fact be harder and more challenging cuz he has no support from the police anymore.