The Dark Knight Rises Skyfall vs. TDKR

[Tequilla]

I completely disagree here. Marion was the worst performance in TDKR (death scene was laughable), I can't remember a performance from Sophie were I had a reaction like that.

Have you seen Marceau "gems" like Je reste , Note Bleue , Karenina , Á ce soir , Amour braque , the musketeers one , etc ? She has always been a pretty face . Cardboard acting defines her career. Marion has a body of work that speaks for itself , and his a testament for her qualities. They are not from the same league. The only similarity between them , it's that they are both stunning women.

Yes her death scene is not very good. I give the director a lot of responsibilities in that too. But like always , internet tends to put popular stuff a little out of proportion . Her perfomance in the movie is quite nice , in a role with limited screentime .

 

[Frodo]

And Silva was just an overgrown mommas boy,c'mon it's not fair to dismiss either performance with such ridiculously simple arguments.

Well you can disagree with my view, but just because you disagree or don't like it, doesn't make my argument simple. As far as performances go , I wasn't dismissing either one. I just found Bardem's to be more compelling, entertaining. Again, like it or not , that's how I personally felt.

As far as comparing characters , both characters are pretty thin as far as motivation goes , though Bane is reduced to a love sick puppy who in the end , is motivated to do what he does for Talia. Silva's motivation is also slight in comparison to some other Bond villans, but I found creepy demented character was far more entertaining than Bane.

 

[DACrowe]

I feel like most of these arguments come down to, "Bane is a 'love sick puppy' because he is equal accomplice with a woman while Silva is more manly and alone!"

Because Silva is doing this all for the attention of a woman he considers his mother and left him for dead. But because Bane does not have a woman around him who he both listens to and does things his own way around, he is weaker in the eyes of the mostly-male fan community. Just saying.

 

[DACrowe]

Can I see some links then to a few samples from this ton of Begins parodies?

Begins came out before there was Youtube. But I can ensure we were all making fun of the voice back then.

 

[Spoonman]

No the Bane/Talia relationship was nothing like the Renard/Elektra relationship.Bane's relationship with Talia was more like his relationship with Scandal Savage and furthermore Bane joining Ra's,having a relationship with Talia,leading the LOA and acquiring a nuclear reactor was done in the comics years before The World is Not Enough was released.

Saying that the Bane/Talia relationship was nothing like Renard/Elektra's is quite hyperbolic, it's very much alike. And I am not super versed in the comics world but still, putting very much the same plot device (the relationship between the hecnchman with the true femme fatale mastermind, the nuclear device, destroying a city) is not more valid because it was scatered in some comicbooks when a major motion picture (TWINE) already used it, if the comics world is so vast then Nolan could've used a slightly different storyline lifted from them; that is why I am not inclined to belive that Nolan lifted that from the comics you mention, he is openly more of a Bond fan than a Comic book reader.

 

[DACrowe]

I'd agree with those comparisions, and unfortunately TWINE is one of the weaker Bond flicks. The Bane/Talia relationship is almost exactly like the Renard/Electra relationship, Renard is a vicious terrorist who cannot feel pain, You have a hero who's physically, mentally, and emotionally compromised, you have a film which has much more of a downbeat and depressing tone, And you have over the top action which conflicts a bit with the more personal story the film wants to tell. I'd say Skyfall is like TDK in its villan and that's about it. Other than that, its oddly closer to TDKR .

I actually like TWINE. Beyond the woeful miscasting of Ms. Richards and the inaneness of the ski scene, I think it works quite well.

Anyway, I do see the similarities. Just as I see TDK features the villain killing people (in Skyfall's case MI6 agents) every set day/week until the hero meets his demands. It also features the villain being intentionally captured so he can later escape. It even features the hero getting some reliable advice from an old childhood servant who knows his most personal, darkest secrets.

But I do not know why people are upset. QOS borrowed from Bourne. CR borrowed from Batman Begins. TND borrowed from John Woo. It goes all the way back to LALD borrowing from Shaft. It is part of the Bond tradition on film.

 

[BatLobster]

But I do not know why people are upset. QOS borrowed from Bourne. CR borrowed from Batman Begins. TND borrowed from John Woo. It goes all the way back to LALD borrowing from Shaft. It is part of the Bond tradition on film.

Yup, the cross pollination between these types of franchises is nothing new. It's all about trying to keep up with audience expectations.

 

[The Joker]

Begins came out before there was Youtube.

These sound good to me regarding that point;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNQXAC9IVRw

The internet world was still a land of videos being posted. Didn't have to be just on YT. College Humor's been about since 1999 taking the mick out of movies.

YT was up and around when Begins came out, and they had three years since it's release and up to TDK to make parody vids of Begins voice but they never did.

So yah we should move on.

YouTube was not always the primary outlet for parody videos back in 2005. We had them long before YouTube came along. As Fudgie so correctly pointed out there was ample time between 2005-2008 for parodies of the Begins Bale voice to be made if was such a huge subject to mockery as you say. Parodies were very much around back then; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVrIyEu6h_E

As also pointed out, infamous CollegeHumor has been making them since 1999. Can you find any about Batman Begins Batman voice on their website? http://www.collegehumor.com/videos

Let me know if you can. They've got all their videos on there going back to 1999.

But I can ensure we were all making fun of the voice back then.

I can assure you we were not. Any knocks against the voice were few and far between. I challenge you to provide any links, verbal or video, that showed some kind of backlash against the Begins voice. They should be easy to find if it was being done as much as some of you claim.

 

[DACrowe]

Sigh.

Yes, there was ebaums world and there was whatever else. But the whole internet meme culture of parodying movies like we have seen since 2008 or so did not exist back then. There was SNL, MTV, and other such parodies (which btw the latter of which did parody BB) but the meme culture we have now did not exist.

The best I can do is say search this board for 2005 threads complaining about the voice (yes, they existed) or check out the many, many reviews from the movie's initial release that would either criticize or bemusedly mock the voice.

Not that it matters. It did not bother me in 2005. I do not see why people bother still recycling this complaint seven years later.

 

[DACrowe]

As for a link, here you go:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=244367&highlight=bale+voice

In 2005, after Schumaucher and an eight year absence, people were starting to grumble about the voice. But as you can see in the thread, fanboys are like, "I liked the movie and Bale is great...but the voice seemed....forced. STILL GREAT!"

By 2008 it's, "The movie rocked, too bad Bale's voice is silly."

In 2012, fanboys realize the series is over and there is a new shiny toy around the corner and it becomes, "That voice sucked! And so did the movie! GRRRR!"

It is just the way this cycle works.

 

[spidermanJLA!~]

Begins came out before there was Youtube. But I can ensure we were all making fun of the voice back then.

Youtube was created in 2005?!!!

 

[The Joker]

Sigh.

Not the best attitude to start with.

Yes, there was ebaums world and there was whatever else. But the whole internet meme culture of parodying movies like we have seen since 2008 or so did not exist back then.

Yeah, I concede it wasn't as full on as it was several years later, but it was still very much around. Movies got spoofed and mocked. There is not ONE video in existence from 2005 to TDK's release that mocks Bale's Batman voice in Begins. Not a single one.

The best I can do is say search this board for 2005 threads complaining about the voice (yes, they existed) or check out the many, many reviews from the movie's initial release that would either criticize or bemusedly mock the voice.

I have searched through the boards. Do you think I would make such a claim without having done my research? I told you above the complaints about the voice were few and far between.

As for a link, here you go:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=244367&highlight=bale+voice

Did you read through that thread before you posted it? Here's the bulk of the responses that actually mention the voice or don't feel any changes were necessary to the character at all;

voice wasn't over the top... that way no one could recogonize his voice

But yeh the voice is ok

I dont feel the voice is forced, Bale is just speaking out of his throat. I think it's a pretty badass sound, very animalistic, like a growl. I like it a lot

I like the voice too.

Bale's Batman is the best Batman portrayed on film ever. The 'Batman voice' was inconsistant at times, but other than that it was perfecto IMO.

I'm not complaining too much about his Batman voice, I simply got used to it, but there were variations when he first met Rachel in the monorail station and when he talked to her when she woke up in the batcave. I would lean toward that batcave voice and the voice he used when he spoke to Gordon in Gordon's home. Otherwise, not too much change needed.

fantastic performance. i don't think there's anything he would need to improve on

Bale did the best he could. He really got into that character in order to make it work, and it was great.

I think Bale should try some variety in his Batman voice.I loved it

Bale did everything just right. He was spot-on IMO.

I like his Batman voice too.

I loved his voice LOVEDITOMG loved his voice in the Flass scene

I don't want him to change anything.

Honestly I thought Bale was perfect. My issues with the movie have nothing to do with him.

Nothing should go.

Bale's batman is definetly the best and most studied that i've ever seen, I don't think they should changed a thing.

If people in the comics actually question whether Batman is an animal or human, I think the comic Batman would sound very similar to Bale.

I liked just about everything in his rendition.

I agree. Bale is a fine actor and was great as both Bruce Wayne and Batman. I can't really see anybody else playing the role, and Bale should not change a thing.

I don't want him to just duplicate his performance in Begins. If he does that, he'll just sleepwalk through the whole franchise playing Bats the same way. Don't get me wrong, I think he nailed it, but with a character like Batman, you can play the part so many ways.

There were things I would like to see added to Bale's performance in the sequels, and perhaps a thing or two I would like to see marginalized, but nothing I would outright remove.

The rest of the thread is people talking about detective skills, the one liners, the romance sub plot, Miller's version of Batman, and other non voice related stuff. Compare the number of people who complain about the voice to the ones who do not. Vast minority.

In 2005, after Schumaucher and an eight year absence, people were starting to grumble about the voice. But as you can see in the thread, fanboys are like, "I liked the movie and Bale is great...but the voice seemed....forced. STILL GREAT!"

Again read the thread and see the numbers in that thread. Those actually discussing the voice, the majority loved it. The detractors were a drop in the ocean.

There was no noticeable backlash against the voice.

 

[Omegabat]

Saying that the Bane/Talia relationship was nothing like Renard/Elektra's is quite hyperbolic, it's very much alike. And I am not super versed in the comics world but still, putting very much the same plot device (the relationship between the hecnchman with the true femme fatale mastermind, the nuclear device, destroying a city) is not more valid because it was scatered in some comicbooks when a major motion picture (TWINE) already used it, if the comics world is so vast then Nolan could've used a slightly different storyline lifted from them; that is why I am not inclined to belive that Nolan lifted that from the comics you mention, he is openly more of a Bond fan than a Comic book reader.

That story I mentioned is the second and last major story with Bane as the villain,after that he became an anti-hero.It was the only story where he interacted with the Al Ghuls.The comics may be vast but Bane is'nt.

Either way they existed before TWINE,and that's good enough for me especially since Bane's relationship with Talia mirrors his relationship with Scandal Savage over Renard/Elektra.

 

[BatLobster]

Saying that the Bane/Talia relationship was nothing like Renard/Elektra's is quite hyperbolic, it's very much alike. And I am not super versed in the comics world but still, putting very much the same plot device (the relationship between the hecnchman with the true femme fatale mastermind, the nuclear device, destroying a city) is not more valid because it was scatered in some comicbooks when a major motion picture (TWINE) already used it, if the comics world is so vast then Nolan could've used a slightly different storyline lifted from them; that is why I am not inclined to belive that Nolan lifted that from the comics you mention, he is openly more of a Bond fan than a Comic book reader.

It seems increasingly common to single out Christopher Nolan when discussing the script for this movie, but a lot seem to forget that the other two guys in the writing trio: Goyer and Jonathan Nolan, are well-versed in the Batman world, and all three of them referenced the comics when doing research for each movie. Countless interviews confirm this.

 

[Fudgie]

As far as comparing characters , both characters are pretty thin as far as motivation goes , though Bane is reduced to a love sick puppy who in the end , is motivated to do what he does for Talia. Silva's motivation is also slight in comparison to some other Bond villans, but I found creepy demented character was far more entertaining than Bane.

Quoted for truth.

But I think Silva going nuts after being betrayed and left by someone he trusted was better than Bane just doing it so Miss Talia can finish her pappy's work.

As for a link, here you go:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=244367&highlight=bale+voice

Not catching much moaning about the voice in there. Hardly any. Like 3 out of 20+ happy campers.

 

[TheBat812]

I actually like TWINE. Beyond the woeful miscasting of Ms. Richards and the inaneness of the ski scene, I think it works quite well.

Anyway, I do see the similarities. Just as I see TDK features the villain killing people (in Skyfall's case MI6 agents) every set day/week until the hero meets his demands. It also features the villain being intentionally captured so he can later escape. It even features the hero getting some reliable advice from an old childhood servant who knows his most personal, darkest secrets.

But I do not know why people are upset. QOS borrowed from Bourne. CR borrowed from Batman Begins. TND borrowed from John Woo. It goes all the way back to LALD borrowing from Shaft. It is part of the Bond tradition on film.

I felt like the similarities came from what they like in classic action films and their more british sensitibilities in that way. Still, Skyfall was the strongest Bond film cinematically and thematically, and for that it deserves major props. I still enjoy CR more though, haha.

 

[Tequilla]

I remember some parodies with Bat voice in Begins , one specifically by Conan on his Late Night Show. But yeah , its was nowhere near the same for TDK , because that movie was hugely popular , something that Begins wasnt. The exposure was on a completely different scale , and the internet was also a different place.

 

[AnneFan]

But I think Silva going nuts after being betrayed and left by someone he trusted was better than Bane just doing it so Miss Talia can finish her pappy's work.

You can definitely understand why Silva thinks the way he does. In his mind all the stuff he does is justified. Bardem's statement of "who says a villain is necessarily a bad person?" held true IMO.

Both movies are good, but at the end of the day, one features Anne Hathaway and the other one doesn't.

 

[Brain Damage]

It seems increasingly common to single out Christopher Nolan when discussing the script for this movie, but a lot seem to forget that the other two guys in the writing trio: Goyer and Jonathan Nolan, are well-versed in the Batman world, and all three of them referenced the comics when doing research for each movie. Countless interviews confirm this.

You're definitely right, Chris is getting singled out quite a lot for the script, and it's not fair. I feel like a big problem was that all three of them tried to get everything they wanted in there and didn't compromise enough. It's common knowledge that Jonathan was the one who pushed for Selina to be put in, so I imagine situations like that led to the bloated feel of the story.

Were those rumors about the first draft being 500 pages every confirmed?

 

[Fudgie]

I remember some parodies with Bat voice in Begins , one specifically by Conan on his Late Night Show.

Can't find anything about that. But I found this; http://www.shockya.com/news/2012/01...fun-of-banes-dialog-in-the-dark-knight-rises/

and the internet was also a different place.

Keep hearing that but I can still find lots of movie parodies from back then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG2kiKRDDPs

Strange huh.

You can definitely understand why Silva thinks the way he does. In his mind all the stuff he does is justified. Bardem's statement of "who says a villain is necessarily a bad person?" held true IMO.

Yup loved that. He was a way better villain than Bane was for moi.

Both movies are good, but at the end of the day, one features Anne Hathaway and the other one doesn't.

Heh can't deny she was aces.

 

[Tequilla]

I felt like the similarities came from what they like in classic action films and their more british sensitibilities in that way. Still, Skyfall was the strongest Bond film cinematically and thematically, and for that it deserves major props. I still enjoy CR more though, haha.

I also think Skyfall deserves major props for trying to be a little more than 2 non-sense hours , yet being able to check a lot of the formula from the past , but as i was rewatching the movie yesterday i couldn't help but feel i would prefer to see 9-10 other Bonds than this one. Even Deakins work , outside of those beautiful color compositions , most setups are conservative as hell.

 

[BatLobster]

You're definitely right, Chris is getting singled out quite a lot for the script, and it's not fair. I feel like a big problem was that all three of them tried to get everything they wanted in there and didn't compromise enough. It's common knowledge that Jonathan was the one who pushed for Selina to be put in, so I imagine situations like that led to the bloated feel of the story.

Were those rumors about the first draft being 500 pages every confirmed?

It was Chris himself that said the first draft Jonathan handed him was about 400 pages. I mean he could have been exaggerating, but nevertheless:

When it came time to show his big brother the script, he suggested he read Dickens as the primer. "When Jonah showed me his first draft of his screenplay," Chris Nolan says, "it was 400 pages long or something. It had all this crazy stuff in it. As part of a primer when he handed it to me, he said, 'You've got to think of 'A Tale of Two Cities' which, of course, you've read.' I said, 'Absolutely.' I read the script and was a little baffled by a few things and realized that I'd never read 'A Tale of Two Cities'. It was just one of those things that I thought I had done. Then I got it, read it and absolutely loved it and got completely what he was talking about... When I did my draft on the script, it was all about 'A Tale of Two Cities.' "

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/christopher-nolan-talks-the-politics-of-the-dark-knight-rises-and-more-from-the-films-press-tour-20120724

 

[Anno_Domini]

I love that interview. So funny that Christopher Nolan only thought he had read Tale of Two Cities.

 

[DACrowe]

Not the best attitude to start with.



Yeah, I concede it wasn't as full on as it was several years later, but it was still very much around. Movies got spoofed and mocked. There is not ONE video in existence from 2005 to TDK's release that mocks Bale's Batman voice in Begins. Not a single one.



I have searched through the boards. Do you think I would make such a claim without having done my research? I told you above the complaints about the voice were few and far between.



Did you read through that thread before you posted it? Here's the bulk of the responses that actually mention the voice or don't feel any changes were necessary to the character at all;











































The rest of the thread is people talking about detective skills, the one liners, the romance sub plot, Miller's version of Batman, and other non voice related stuff. Compare the number of people who complain about the voice to the ones who do not. Vast minority.



Again read the thread and see the numbers in that thread. Those actually discussing the voice, the majority loved it. The detractors were a drop in the ocean.

There was no noticeable backlash against the voice.

There are also no videos from 2005 I can find mocking "I have the high ground" or "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," but I know fans mocked that when it came out. Even more as time passed. The meme culture isn't around.

And I am not going to dissect-a-post comments from that thread, but it seemed to me to be a 70/30 split of those who liked the voice vs. those who disliked it. It was the first Nolan movie, it was fresh, it was new, it was the first thing since Batman & Robin 8 years prior. Fans drank it up like milk. But there was criticism. And that is how it always begins:

First movie: It is perfect...I even love that one little thing some people are complaining about.

Second movie: It is perfect....but that thing that I didn't care about the first time, did kind of bug me.

Third movie: That sucked! And what is with that <insert trilogy long complaint>?!?! It used to be fine but it got so much worse!!!!!

I don't even know why you're making a big deal out of this. Bale had the same over-the-top vocal inflections and raspiness in BB ("SWEAR TO ME!!!"/"DO I LOOK LIKE A COP?!?!"/"WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR?!?!"/ALFRED, I'VE BEEN POISONED!"/"I BROUGHT MINE!"/"I CAN BEAT TWO OF YOUR PAWNS!"/IT'S NOT WHO I AM UNDERNEATH.../"RACHEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!").

Yes, he turned it down in a few scenes with Gordon and Rachel, but it was always there for most of the movie he's in costume. It's just in 2005 it was a novelty and not a pop culture phenomenon like it was in 2008 and 2012. It was also before the Internet meme culture. But people were snickering at in 2005 like in 2012. The difference? Fans in 2005 were just happy to have a serious Batman movie. Fans in 2012 are tired of Nolan because the shininess has worn off and they cannot wait for the new toy.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Honestly, I enjoyed Skyfall and Avengers wayy more than I did Dark Knight Rises. I was truly expecting to be blown away in awe with Dark Knight Rises like I was with Begins and Dark Knight, but in the end I was just like "meh it was good but not great".