The Dark Knight Rises TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 4

[spider-neil]

Do you think it's possible that Alfred just imaged Bruce at the Café because it is something he wanted so much to see?

Maybe the scene would have played out better if you saw Alfred smile and raise his glass without seeing who he is gesturing to, then it's up to the viewer to decide whether Bruce is in the cafe or not.

 

[The Bruce]

Can you help me with something I just don't get? The congressman Selina "Kidnapped"! How did she keep him? Was he drugged? I just didn't get how she could have him walking around with her like that?

I don't buy "Oh he was soo smitten with her" crap. Dudes like that get bimbos like crazy!

 

[arkham.insayn]

Can you help me with something I just don't get? The congressman Selina "Kidnapped"! How did she keep him? Was he drugged? I just didn't get how she could have him walking around with her like that?

I don't buy "Oh he was soo smitten with her" crap. Dudes like that get bimbos like crazy!

I assumed some sort of drug, he was scruffy and unshaven so maybe she just had him drugged up for a while.

 

[DasFeuerSteigt]

Do you think it's possible that Alfred just imaged Bruce at the Café because it is something he wanted so much to see?

Maybe the scene would have played out better if you saw Alfred smile and raise his glass without seeing who he is gesturing to, then it's up to the viewer to decide whether Bruce is in the cafe or not.

Given that it is clearly shown that Batman sacrifices himself I believe this is true. There really was no way for him to escape the blast and theories of him jumping out or into another Bat don't make sense when he is clearly shown with the bomb as it detonates. I suspect the whole thing about the auto-pilot being fixed was to show that Batman could have just put the thing on autopilot, but actually realised there was no future for him. In essence, Bruce Wayne commits suicide. Given how deeply upset Alfred was at Bruce's funeral, I find it hard to accept he would simply smile and nod upon discovering Bruce was a live and well in Florence. I agree with you, I think it was Alfred's wishful thinking. This is really the only way for the ending to make any sense.

And as we know, the world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to just disappear! Faking his own death would not work.

 

[MACH]

Given that it is clearly shown that Batman sacrifices himself I believe this is true. There really was no way for him to escape the blast and theories of him jumping out or into another Bat don't make sense when he is clearly shown with the bomb as it detonates. I suspect the whole thing about the auto-pilot being fixed was to show that Batman could have just put the thing on autopilot, but actually realised there was no future for him. In essence, Bruce Wayne commits suicide. Given how deeply upset Alfred was at Bruce's funeral, I find it hard to accept he would simply smile and nod upon discovering Bruce was a live and well in Florence. I agree with you, I think it was Alfred's wishful thinking. This is really the only way for the ending to make any sense.

And as we know, the world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to just disappear! Faking his own death would not work.

"You'd have to go a thousand miles for someone to not know your name" - which he did.


What about the pearls? The coordinates? And the new Bat signal?


I don't mind either end, but I think you're a little closed minded to say it is definitely Alfred imagining when there is so much evidence to prove that he wasn't.

 

[DasFeuerSteigt]

"You'd have to go a thousand miles for someone to not know your name" - which he did.


What about the pearls? The coordinates? And the new Bat signal?


I don't mind either end, but I think you're a little closed minded to say it is definitely Alfred imagining when there is so much evidence to prove that he wasn't.

No, I'd just forgotten about them! Back to the ending making no sense then. Are you suggesting that Italians won't have heard of Bruce Wayne? That's like saying they haven't heard of Donald Trump or Bill Gates.

 

[Herolee10]

Do you think it's possible that Alfred just imaged Bruce at the Café because it is something he wanted so much to see?

Maybe the scene would have played out better if you saw Alfred smile and raise his glass without seeing who he is gesturing to, then it's up to the viewer to decide whether Bruce is in the cafe or not.

Honestly, given that this is a CONCLUSION to Bruce's story, I think an ambiguous ending would have been somewhat of a cop out. I think fans and the GA had the right to know as to what happened to Bruce and not leave that up in the mystery as Nolan did with the ending for "Inception".

Given that it is clearly shown that Batman sacrifices himself I believe this is true. There really was no way for him to escape the blast and theories of him jumping out or into another Bat don't make sense when he is clearly shown with the bomb as it detonates. I suspect the whole thing about the auto-pilot being fixed was to show that Batman could have just put the thing on autopilot, but actually realised there was no future for him. In essence, Bruce Wayne commits suicide. Given how deeply upset Alfred was at Bruce's funeral, I find it hard to accept he would simply smile and nod upon discovering Bruce was a live and well in Florence. I agree with you, I think it was Alfred's wishful thinking. This is really the only way for the ending to make any sense.

And as we know, the world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to just disappear! Faking his own death would not work.

Or it could just be a case of clever editing where Nolan made the audiences think that Batman was going to die when he really didn't.

Plus, of all the people for Alfred to wish Bruce sitting next to..he just happened to imagine Selina Kyle sitting next to Bruce, along with her wearing the pearl necklace that was recorded to have not been accounted for?

Honestly, until Nolan himself confirms otherwise, the ending was proof enough that Bruce Wayne DID survive and didn't die in that explosion. I mean I'm all for respecting people's opinions, but I just don't get on how anyone else could think that Alfred seeing Bruce AND SELINA in the cafe was a figment of his imagination.

Plus....it was established in the prison arc, that Bruce needed to rediscover the will to live and the fear of dying in order to truly do on what many consider to be impossible...and I don't think it just stopped at him climbing over the wall to defeating Bane..I think that also applied to how the odds were stacked up against him when he was racing that bomb to the ocean....how, because of his new found desire to live..he was able to use that to succeed.

Plus...the whole point of the film was to make Bruce realize that he needed to live and have the will to live....to have him die after all that he just learned and went through would mean that he received no real development and that it was a cop out.

And frankly, I think that the only people who truly thinks that he died are the ones that wanted him to die to begin with.

 

[MACH]

No, I'd just forgotten about them! Back to the ending making no sense then. Are you suggesting that Italians won't have heard of Bruce Wayne? That's like saying they haven't heard of Donald Trump or Bill Gates.

I think it could easily make sense. Batman could have just glided away in time. Is it unlikely and unrealistic? YES! But so is a movie about a man in a Bat costume.

As for the Donald trump etc comparison, I think you're applying a little too much reality.

Besides which it doesn't say that no-one will EVER find out Bruce is alive. Just that the people in that specific cafe don't recognise him.

Even if they did, perhaps Bruce will become the new Elvis, with sightings all over the planet

 

[MACH]

honestly, given that this is a conclusion to bruce's story, i think an ambiguous ending would have been somewhat of a cop out. I think fans and the ga had the right to know as to what happened to bruce and not leave that up in the mystery as nolan did with the ending for "inception".




Or it could just be a case of clever editing where nolan made the audiences think that batman was going to die when he really didn't.

Plus, of all the people for alfred to wish bruce sitting next to..he just happened to imagine selina kyle sitting next to bruce, along with her wearing the pearl necklace that was recorded to have not been accounted for?

Honestly, until nolan himself confirms otherwise, the ending was proof enough that bruce wayne did survive and didn't die in that explosion. I mean i'm all for respecting people's opinions, but i just don't get on how anyone else could think that alfred seeing bruce and selina in the cafe was a figment of his imagination.

Plus....it was established in the prison arc, that bruce needed to rediscover the will to live and the fear of dying in order to truly do on what many consider to be impossible...and i don't think it just stopped at him climbing over the wall to defeating bane..i think that also applied to how the odds were stacked up against him when he was racing that bomb to the ocean....how, because of his new found desire to live..he was able to use that to succeed.

Plus...the whole point of the film was to make bruce realize that he needed to live and have the will to live....to have him die after all that he just learned and went through would mean that he received no real development and that it was a cop out.

And frankly, i think that the only people who truly thinks that he died are the ones that wanted him to die to begin with.

this!

 

[elgaz]

Guys, if Indiana Jones can survive a nuclear explosion by hiding inside a lead-lined fridge, Batman can survive it in the bat-copter

 

[Syncope]

Given that it is clearly shown that Batman sacrifices himself I believe this is true. There really was no way for him to escape the blast and theories of him jumping out or into another Bat don't make sense when he is clearly shown with the bomb as it detonates. I suspect the whole thing about the auto-pilot being fixed was to show that Batman could have just put the thing on autopilot, but actually realised there was no future for him. In essence, Bruce Wayne commits suicide. Given how deeply upset Alfred was at Bruce's funeral, I find it hard to accept he would simply smile and nod upon discovering Bruce was a live and well in Florence. I agree with you, I think it was Alfred's wishful thinking. This is really the only way for the ending to make any sense.

And as we know, the world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to just disappear! Faking his own death would not work.

No chance. Bruce is alive. He's sat with Selina Kyle - why would Alfred imagine her sat there?

The only reason the autopilot thing was brought up at the end was to accompany Bruce's survival. The idea is that he escaped the Bat after activating the autopilot. That is what you are meant to believe. There's nothing ambiguous about the ending what-so-ever!

 

[DasFeuerSteigt]

No chance. Bruce is alive. He's sat with Selina Kyle - why would Alfred imagine her sat there?

The only reason the autopilot thing was brought up at the end was to accompany Bruce's survival. The idea is that he escaped the Bat after activating the autopilot. That is what you are meant to believe. There's nothing ambiguous about the ending what-so-ever!

Other than the fact he is shown with the bomb seconds before it detonates.

 

[Herolee10]

I think it could easily make sense. Batman could have just glided away in time. Is it unlikely and unrealistic? YES! But so is a movie about a man in a Bat costume.

As for the Donald trump etc comparison, I think you're applying a little too much reality.

Besides which it doesn't say that no-one will EVER find out Bruce is alive. Just that the people in that specific cafe don't recognise him.

Even if they did, perhaps Bruce will become the new Elvis, with sightings all over the planet

No chance. Bruce is alive. He's sat with Selina Kyle - why would Alfred imagine her sat there?

The only reason the autopilot thing was brought up at the end was to accompany Bruce's survival. The idea is that he escaped the Bat after activating the autopilot. That is what you are meant to believe. There's nothing ambiguous about the ending what-so-ever!

And to add to all of that...by the time that Bruce had gotten back to Gotham, he had only about a day and a half's worth to get everything prepared for the final assault on Bane, and even he noted to Blake on how there was a chance that he might fail, hence why he had Blake leading all of those civilians out.

So with the worst case scenario in his mind and only like a day's worth to get everything prepared before going up against Bane...does anyone really think that Bruce would have the time to:

1. Get a new Bat Signal for Gordon

2. Leave behind a trail for Blake to follow in order to get to the Bat Cave

Plus, there's no way imho that Bruce would have chosen Blake before he had gotten beaten up by Bane the first time, so I doubt that he'd have set up those instructions for him to get the mantle at that point.

 

[Herolee10]

Other than the fact he is shown with the bomb seconds before it detonates.

It's called editing technique, and like some said...he could have ejected himself from the plane at the point that we saw a close up of him in the cockpit and fly the remainder of "The Bat" to the ocean for the bomb to detonate.

 

[Syncope]

Other than the fact he is shown with the bomb seconds before it detonates.

Sorry, no. The ending is what it is. I might as well sit here and say that Bane didn't really get blasted away and it was just what Bruce wanted to see. There's no ambiguous theme in the ending. Everything is presented as if it is realism hence why Bruce fixing the autopilot is brought up at the end - to accompany and make logical the idea of him surviving.

 

[DasFeuerSteigt]

It's called editing technique, and like some said...he could have ejected himself from the plane at the point that we saw a close up of him in the cockpit and fly the remainder of "The Bat" to the ocean for the bomb to detonate.

I really don't think this is the case. He couldn't have gotten far away enough from the blast.

 

[Herolee10]

I really don't think this is the case. He couldn't have gotten far away enough from the blast.

Again, we don't know when he might have separated himself from "The Bat"...by all accounts, the ending montage essentially confirms that he's alive and that there's enough proof to establish that he did survive.

If the whole point was for Alfred to only imagine Bruce there, then they didn't need to establish that the pearls were still missing or that Bruce had fixed the autopilot.

If actual facts can't convince you that Bruce survived, I don't think anything will. People, including me, have already stated all of the reasons essentially as to why he isn't dead.

But if you want to believe that he's dead when he's clearly alive..then that's your prerogative.

 

[DasFeuerSteigt]

Sorry, no. The ending is what it is. I might as well sit here and say that Bane didn't really get blasted away and it was just what Bruce wanted to see. There's no ambiguous theme in the ending. Everything is presented as if it is realism hence why Bruce fixing the autopilot is brought up at the end - to accompany and make logical the idea of him surviving.

Sorry yes. You see him with the bomb when it detonates. What part of him surviving a nuclear explosion is logical? You really have to stretch a bit to make him survive this. That's why the ending makes no sense. It strongly suggests something we know cannot be the case.

 

[Herolee10]

Sorry yes. You see him with the bomb when it detonates. What part of him surviving a nuclear explosion is logical? You really have to stretch a bit to make him survive this. That's why the ending makes no sense. It strongly suggests something we know cannot be the case.

Do you see him INSIDE THE ACTUAL BAT..with it being confirmed that he's in THE ENTIRE BAT vehicle by the time he's over the ocean?

No you don't..you just see a close up of his face....something that by all accounts..could have been him in the ejected portion of the Bat.

 

[MACH]

Sorry yes. You see him with the bomb when it detonates. What part of him surviving a nuclear explosion is logical? You really have to stretch a bit to make him survive this. That's why the ending makes no sense. It strongly suggests something we know cannot be the case.

OR Nolan had it edited that way because he wanted the audience to believe Bruce is dead right up until the final scene.

I'm sure he never considered the fact that some people would still believe he is dead even after the many reveals that he is in fact alive.

 

[DasFeuerSteigt]

Do you see him INSIDE THE ACTUAL BAT..with it being confirmed that he's in THE ENTIRE BAT vehicle by the time he's over the ocean?

No you don't..you just see a close up of his face....something that by all accounts..could have been him in the ejected portion of the Bat.

It doesn't matter. It's a nuclear bomb! If he ejected he must have done it late or he would have been seen. The later he ejects the less likely he is to survive. I'm really not convinced he survives.

If he can find the time to paint a massive Bat symbol in petrol on the side of a bridge he can find time to send Selina some pearls and Blake some co-ordinates.

 

[Syncope]

Sorry yes. You see him with the bomb when it detonates. What part of him surviving a nuclear explosion is logical? You really have to stretch a bit to make him survive this. That's why the ending makes no sense. It strongly suggests something we know cannot be the case.

I'm not going to sit here and keep repeating the same points.

It's quite clear that the film goes out of its way to present a logical explanation as to how Bruce survived the blast. If the film wanted the ending to be ambiguous, it wouldn't have mentioned the autopilot or show Alfred obtaining the pearls. The film is urging the audience to believe Bruce ejected from the Bat before the explosion.

 

[Herolee10]

OR Nolan had it edited that way because he wanted the audience to believe Bruce is dead right up until the final scene.

I'm sure he never considered the fact that some people would still believe he is dead even after the many reveals that he is in fact alive.

Yep; I mean it's basic editing 101.lol

It happens in a lot films or medium, where it appears that a character has died in some type of explosion, only for it to be revealed later, with a detailed flashback on how the character had taken the means/measures to escape their supposed death.

Plus, it's amusing on how the person is ignoring the other facts that show as to how Bruce had survived.

 

[Herolee10]

It doesn't matter. It's a nuclear bomb! If he ejected he must have done it late or he would have been seen. The later he ejects the less likely he is to survive. I'm really not convinced he survives.

If he can find the time to paint a massive Bat symbol in petrol on the side of a bridge he can find time to send Selina some pearls and Blake some co-ordinates.

Is it really that important for you to think/believe that Bruce had died?

Oh well, can't I say that none of us tried using facts. So i guess most people here were just mistaken in our viewings with the film to think that Bruce had survived right?

 

[DasFeuerSteigt]

Yep; I mean it's basic editing 101.lol

It happens in a lot films or medium, where it appears that a character has died in some type of explosion, only for it to be revealed later, with a detailed flashback on how the character had taken the means/measures to escape their supposed death.

Plus, it's amusing on how the person is ignoring the other facts that show as to how Bruce had survived.

But we didn't get a detailed explanation of HOW he survives. We didn't get any explanation of it. It's just hinted at that he did. I'm not ignoring them, I think he could have foreseen he was going to sacrifice himself, given that it's hinted at a lot throughout the film.

"You've given them everything"
"Not everything. Not yet"

All he has left to give is his life. And he does.