Age of Ultron The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - - - - - Part 51

[Pokkle]

This is my unpopular opinion about all these nonsense coming out of AOU.

JW needs to stop being a cry baby and own up to the fact he did mediocre movie. Is so obvious he is trying to put the blame on Marvel. No director for big blockbuster movie has full control. You have to make the studio happy too. Many directors manage to delivery great movies under those conditions all the time.

Also the twitter nonsense is much ado about nothing. There are people who get way more serious treats and trolling on social media many of whom are out spoken women. I'm suppose to feel sorry for a man who can't handle criticism for ****** movie.

Also, I don't get why *****ebags (Jeremy Renners and his ilk) and their fans think that they are immune to criticism when they say racist and sexist **** whether as a joke or otherwise. Some of that **** will never be funny to the people who have to live it everyday in this freaking planet. Yeah *****ebags, you have the right to be a dick but others have the right to put you in your place.

Everything surrounding this movie and the movie itself has been unpleasant. Marvel should learn from it and put out better movie next time and control their *****ebags.

Renner when he insult a fictional character was joking.
You are really insulting a real person.

I'm half black, I know what racism is and I know too what overreaction is.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Loki: I was under the assumption this whole time that after the huge success of A1, Joss had free pass on AOU to do everything he wanted. Now to hear that wasnt the case kinda pisses me off to be honest. I really didnt want to hear "We had a lot of disagreements" after the fact. I want to kick something.

Black Widow was great in the movie. The reason she wasnt robotic like she was in TWS was because she fell in love. When you fall in love your tough posing BS goes out the window. Has anyone ever felt that way before? I hope so.

Also when she was on the job she got things done. So i dont agree with the stupid--- Im gonna stop before I start insulting people.

yeah, lets not act like she suddenly was Padme via SW:Ep III being a helpless victim who was immobilized by her love.... she was not rendered helpless by any means.. nor did she make harsh rash decisions that hurt the team "because of a man"

 

[TheVision]

I was hoping Joss saying "He was so tired etc" was the extent of the sour side. Then we got the BW insult thing, then the sexist hater thing, Joss leaves Twitter...

This film was supposed to be the awesome sequel where everyone was happy with everything. wtf happened?

 

[Son of Coul]

I've defended Joss. I think he's a brilliant film maker, and I've been a fan of his for a long, long time. However I'm disappointed for him to air the dirty laundry like that. I think he could have said what he did in a way that wouldn't stir the pot, so to speak.

He often does. For as much success as he's had, he's been kicked around by Hollywood for a long time, and some resentment comes out in interviews. I recall one where he discussed pounding his fists into a bathroom stall door after being snarked at by the Alien: Resurrection editor for writing something nonsensical in the script that he was forced to include. He's also cast blame on Halle Berry for that now-infamous X-Men 1 line he wrote for her delivery - not that I think she's a particularly good Storm myself, but it's something that comes out here and there with him.

 

[Milla4Prez66]

So Whedon was the one who pushed to keep the farmhouse sequence? If anything he's opening himself up for blame because that sequence really hurt the pacing of the movie and should've been cut if anything.

I find it interesting that he would've included a Spider-Man reference if Marvel and Sony got their deal done earlier.

 

[InCali]

Renner when he insult a fictional character was joking.
You are really insulting a real person.

I'm half black, I know what racism is and I know too what overreaction is.

Yeah....I'm sure Jeremy is just overcome with grief about this person's opinion.

S/he can rant on and on, but in the end, who cares? I don't share this person's opinions. Too bad for me (or the other person).....

 

[InCali]

So Whedon was the one who pushed to keep the farmhouse sequence? If anything he's opening himself up for blame because that sequence really hurt the pacing of the movie and should've been cut if anything.

I find it interesting that he would've included a Spider-Man reference if Marvel and Sony got their deal done earlier.

I would have liked to see a CM cameo (obscured face since the character hasn't been cast). I'm really looking forward to that movie.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I've defended Joss. I think he's a brilliant film maker, and I've been a fan of his for a long, long time. However I'm disappointed for him to air the dirty laundry like that. I think he could have said what he did in a way that wouldn't stir the pot, so to speak.

So can we say there is obvious tension now?

 

[Frodo]

The idea of BW falling in love isn't inconsistent. The idea of BW and Bruce falling for each other in itself isn't so implausible. The reasons for why she would fall for someone like Banner aren't inconsistent. However , in the film it did seem forced and rushed. They went from flirtation at the bar to suddenly talking about running away together and how they can't have a family together, all in one film. That is rushed no matter how you spin it, especially since we are only now being introduced to this idea of Brutasha.

Had they shown development of the connection between them in a couple films it would have made more sense, but here it did feel forced so I do feel it is a valid criticism that the film has gotten from film critics. It also doesn't help that they don't really have a romantic chemistry but more of a friend chemistry. Ultimately I think alot of the complaints are about the execution of it , which alot the complaints seem to focus on. Now there may be alot more scenes that were cut out which make the romance feel a bit more natural but in this cut it doesn't feel natural.

 

[Pokkle]

Yeah....I'm sure Jeremy is just overcome with grief about this person's opinion.

S/he can rant on and on, but in the end, who cares? I don't share this person's opinions. Too bad for me (or the other person).....

There's more than one, Renner noticed "the internet trouble", hope for him he doesn't care for the unpolite/insulting people who can't understand a joke.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

i didn't see that at all.. she saw empathy for banner.. and wanted to get him out of a place he didn't feel comfortable... Ultimately, Hulk is being used as a weapon by a governing force.. the very thing he was running from. They may label him as an avenger.. and give him control.. but he's still a weapon and a ticking time-bomb.. Widow similarly still also feels like a monster... and doesn't necessarily think she's needed or belongs with the team. So she felt, why not be together... he needs her to calm him, and she needs him in her own way. I think there's much deeper lines than what people are seeing.. It made sense to me for the film, and the way things have been going. the comic purist in me hates it though, but for the film i felt it made sense. We saw a different side of her, it was interesting.

First, they took a step back with Bruce as well to make the "love story". Bruce was very much in control in TA. Suddenly he isn't and then is again?

Second, she was able to sympathize with Cap and Clint without turning into a smiley, filthy mess. Why does other side of her have to be totally typical Hollywood "in love". There is no nuance to how she acts. She goes straight off the deep end, like a teen. Cinderella did a better job then this, and that was a movie based around a love story.

 

[Hurm...]

Now that joss is done with marvel hes throwing them under the bus.

http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/ne...ttles-with-marvel-over-avengers-age-of-ultron

Good. Pretty much everything Marvel pushed for was weak. Hey, if you're done with Marvel, then I support Joss's decision to let it all out.

 

[InCali]

There's more than one, Renner noticed "the internet trouble", hope for him he doesn't care for the unpolite/insulting people who can't understand a joke.

Yeah.....I get that. He doesn't strike me as someone with particularly thin skin and I think he knows he's got a lot of supporters out here. I can see why some people might be somewhat miffed, but in comparison to the systematic attacks we see almost daily on women's health, wage inequity, etc., this seems (to me anyway) to be so trivial that it's really beneath my radar as far as critiquing it goes.

 

[obredaan]

The idea of BW falling in love isn't inconsistent. The idea of BW and Bruce falling for each other in itself isn't so implausible. The reasons for why she would fall for someone like Banner aren't inconsistent. However , in the film it did seem forced and rushed. They went from flirtation at the bar to suddenly talking about running away together and how they can't have a family together, all in one film. That is rushed no matter how you spin it, especially since we are only now being introduced to this idea of Brutasha.

Had they shown development of the connection between them in a couple films it would have made more sense, but here it did feel forced so I do feel it is a valid criticism that the film has gotten from film critics. It also doesn't help that they don't really have a romantic chemistry but more of a friend chemistry. Ultimately I think alot of the complaints are about the execution of it , which alot the complaints seem to focus on. Now there may be alot more scenes that were cut out which make the romance feel a bit more natural but in this cut it doesn't feel natural.

The majority of complaints are about Widow being reduced to a love interest. Notice how nobody throws that accusation around at Hulk for some reason? Outside of Whedon, every MCU director has portrayed Widow as a flirty kick ass woman. Whedon is the only one trying to humanize the character and for some reason people are upset about it.

As for the relationship feeling rushed I sort of disagree with you. Many people in love run off and get married the first chance they get. Hulk has always been a character on the run so obviously when things get rough he wants to run off but he no longer wants to be alone. It's all subjective but I enjoyed this aspect of the film and felt that going forward it made both characters a little more interesting.

 

[Tony Stark]

So can we say there is obvious tension now?

I never said there wasn't tension. I said people were blowing the Coulson is still dead comment out of proportion, and that was pretty obvious by his sarcastic comment about AoS being a dream sequence, and his "uh oh, spoiler alert."

I said from the start, Joss is a recluse and more of an independent film maker. I think he loves working with the cast and writing (more than directing), and he wants to go do his own thing. He was offered IW, he turned it down, he wasn't fired.

Having said that, even if you're right, it's always best to take the high road. IMO, saying this stuff now makes him look bad, not Marvel.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

First, they took a step back with Bruce as well to make the "love story". Bruce was very much in control in TA. Suddenly he isn't and then is again?

Second, she was able to sympathize with Cap and Clint without turning into a smiley, filthy mess. Why does other side of her have to be totally typical Hollywood "in love". There is no nuance to how she acts. She goes straight off the deep end, like a teen. Cinderella did a better job then this, and that was a movie based around a love story.

actually no, we never saw bruce feel 100% comfortable or in-control in Avengers... he hulked out because Tony gave him the hero speech, and they needed him.. that was just the first time he felt comfortable with him doing it.. he was afraid to let that monster out.. just like he always is... and that carried over to this film. there was no step backward for bruce at all...

I didn't think she was a smiley filthy mess what so ever.. there was no "mess" what so ever.. and it's degrading to women to think they either have to be "love sick puppies" or "hard cold emotionless beings" ... you can have both. A woman can still kick ass, play with the boys and be tough.. and still have feelings for someone.. play the sexist card all you want.. but it's more sexist to view it's one way or the other... Especially when a man is not measured by those restrictions at all...

A woman to be tough, can't fall in love.. but a man can? that's sexism at it's best right there.

the only fault this movie had was rushing the relationship on screen.. but in context.. it was all very believable and didn't remotely lesson either of there characters....

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I never said there wasn't tension. I said people were blowing the Coulson is still dead comment out of proportion, and that was pretty obvious by his sarcastic comment about AoS being a dream sequence, and his "uh oh, spoiler alert."

I said from the start, Joss is a recluse and more of an independent film maker. I think he loves working with the cast and writing (more than directing), and he wants to go do his own thing. He was offered IW, he turned it down, he wasn't fired.

Having said that, even if you're right, it's always best to take the high road. IMO, saying this stuff now makes him look bad, not Marvel.

I also said there was obviously something up, and it is showing more and more to be the case. Joss' prickly demeanor just adds to that.

I also agree that Joss shouldn't be acting this way. It comes off as petty. Like he isn't taking the criticism of AoU well at all, and it placing the blame somewhere else. Edgar Wright showed how to do this right. He left the film, thanked Marvel and hasn't really talked about it since.

 

[Frodo]

The majority of complaints are about Widow being reduced to a love interest. Notice how nobody throws that accusation around at Hulk for some reason? Outside of Whedon, every MCU director has portrayed Widow as a flirty kick ass woman. Whedon is the only one trying to humanize the character and for some reason people are upset about it.

As for the relationship feeling rushed I sort of disagree with you. Many people in love run off and get married the first chance they get. Hulk has always been a character on the run so obviously when things get rough he wants to run off but he no longer wants to be alone. It's all subjective but I enjoyed this aspect of the film and felt that going forward it made both characters a little more interesting.

I've seen the complaints about reducing Black Widow to a love interest, though most of the criticisms of her character I've heard and read have concerned the fact the the relationship comes out of nowhere and is convincing. Its about how the storyline is executed as opposed what the characrter is reduced to.

The point is that most of the complaints about this film in general center around the execution of the relationships, plotlines, and character motivation in the film. Sure ,lots of people like to run off and get married. That's not the point here. Its how you convince an audience who is just now being introduced to the new idea of Brutasha as a couple, that these two characters would want to do that with each other. Again, its about how its executed and if you get the execution right, it can work. The critics are correct when they say the execution of it in the film, doesn't make the relationship convincing. Had they tried to give hints that the two had some interest in each other before AOU alot more people would have bought it. Even if they hadn't , had the script could have done had it executed that storyline better. Again, the idea's aren't the problem. Its how you convey them in a way that the audience can buy it .

 

[spideyboy_1111]

i def agree that Joss is acting petty, and it's a good thing he got off social media.. he seems to be at a stressful breaking point to be honest...

his comments have come out of non-sensical left field lately... like the Coulson thing.. which makes no lick of sense considering he produces the show, his brother is the creator, and news flash.. he's not the head honcho at marvel...

o well.. this was his last marvel film anyway...

 

[Huddsy]

I actually think the treatment of Widow in this film is definitely a big step back. Not the stuff mentioned, but her relationship with Bruce. It contradicts the beautiful, strong character that was brought to like in TWS.

She becomes a love sick puppy, more worried about her relationship then the mission. Then her real friends. She is more concerned with her standing as a woman then a person. Widow in the past never based her self worth on her sex, and now suddenly she does? And why? Because she is in love. I adore Widow in this film outside of her scenes with Banner, which funnily enough contradict her scenes with Banner.

WHAT?

People saying that Natasha was some lovesick woman didn't get the movie at all.

Natasha was HULK's Knight-in-Shining-Armor. She was there for a Banner who doubted everything about himself - his ability to be normal. She was there with the lullabies, she was there to show him that every single one of them was flawed and wanted to run from the mission, and she was the one who pushed him into being the Hulk when he needed to be.

Natasha "wore the pants" in the relationship, as some would say.

She was and is a strong female character.

 

[hafizbat]

Bruce Timm in a recent interview about JL: Gods and Monsters talked about how the studio didn't let him make Superman bleed in death of Superman and how upset he was at that, especially when the title logo is a bloody S symbol. He said the best thing about the new project is that he gets to do whatever he wants, which is only possible in an elseworlds story.

It's the nature of the business and it's mandatory for these films. We all like to make the studio the villain, but I don't think it's always fair. These aren't indies where the director gets full control. Yeah, sometimes stupid mandates and edits are made for stupid reasons, but I don't expect that from a studio with fans like Feige and co in charge.

Not to mention that the stuff Whedon fought so hard to keep wasn't universally accepted as better. The film being edited down to its final runtime was also Whedon's doing, so while I don't know everything I feel inclined to take the studios side at this time.

Not that I need to blame anyone because I loved AoU, even with its flaws. I'm just disappointed in Whedon for not being totally professional about it. It seems to me that Joss kinda lost his way between making the movie he wanted to make and saying what he wanted to say vs making the best possible Avengers movie, and feels sour towards the studio for trying to keep him on the right track.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

actually no, we never saw bruce feel 100% comfortable or in-control in Avengers... he hulked out because Tony gave him the hero speech, and they needed him.. that was just the first time he felt comfortable with him doing it.. he was afraid to let that monster out.. just like he always is... and that carried over to this film. there was no step backward for bruce at all...

Hulk's secret makes it clear. He is always angry, and thus learned to control his very nature. He is clearly thinking as the Hulk in the final battle of TA. Able to control his reactions and abilities. Why do they suddenly need the lullaby? It makes sense when he is forced into a change.

I didn't think she was a smiley filthy mess what so ever.. there was no "mess" what so ever.. and it's degrading to women to think they either have to be "love sick puppies" or "hard cold emotionless beings" ... you can have both. A woman can still kick ass, play with the boys and be tough.. and still have feelings for someone.. play the sexist card all you want.. but it's more sexist to view it's one way or the other... Especially when a man is not measured by those restrictions at all...

Are you ignoring my words? Her having feelings is great. Brilliant. How they did it is the problem. It did not match her nature in the least. Cap when he falls for Peggy, is still Cap. He does not intrinsically change. He is same guy we know and love. Same for Tony, Thor and Hawkeye. They keep their essence and don't change principally. This also illustrate this beautifully with Peggy, is by far their most 3D character. Natasha is the opposite in AoU.

To use a classic example, Mr. Darcy. He loves Elizabeth with all his being, but his nature is different then others. He doesn't show love in the same way. Another even more relevant explain, is Orphan Black. Where we see multiple different women with same exact DNA expressing their feelings, including love, in different ways, because they are different people.

A woman to be tough, can't fall in love.. but a man can? that's sexism at it's best right there.

the only fault this movie had was rushing the relationship on screen.. but in context.. it was all very believable and didn't remotely lesson either of there characters....

You sir, do not read.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The majority of complaints are about Widow being reduced to a love interest. Notice how nobody throws that accusation around at Hulk for some reason? Outside of Whedon, every MCU director has portrayed Widow as a flirty kick ass woman. Whedon is the only one trying to humanize the character and for some reason people are upset about it.

As for the relationship feeling rushed I sort of disagree with you. Many people in love run off and get married the first chance they get. Hulk has always been a character on the run so obviously when things get rough he wants to run off but he no longer wants to be alone. It's all subjective but I enjoyed this aspect of the film and felt that going forward it made both characters a little more interesting.

Because Bruce isn't consistently pursuing the relationship. Though as I said multiple time, the relationship hurts both of the characters. Though Bruce doesn't really change that much. He simply regresses to pre-Avengers state.

 

[CB Fan]

He often does. For as much success as he's had, he's been kicked around by Hollywood for a long time, and some resentment comes out in interviews. I recall one where he discussed pounding his fists into a bathroom stall door after being snarked at by the Alien: Resurrection editor for writing something nonsensical in the script that he was forced to include. He's also cast blame on Halle Berry for that now-infamous X-Men 1 line he wrote for her delivery - not that I think she's a particularly good Storm myself, but it's something that comes out here and there with him.

That was the moment I knew Joss was a bit full of himself. There is no way that line can be said that makes it cool, it sucks.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

WHAT?

People saying that Natasha was some lovesick woman didn't get the movie at all.

Natasha was HULK's Knight-in-Shining-Armor. She was there for a Banner who doubted everything about himself - his ability to be normal. She was there with the lullabies, she was there to show him that every single one of them was flawed and wanted to run from the mission, and she was the one who pushed him into being the Hulk when he needed to be.

Natasha "wore the pants" in the relationship, as some would say.

She was and is a strong female character.

No, I got the movie just fine. Her breaking down and using an 18th century mindset to value herself isn't being a strong female character. In an actual scene she boils down her worth to her [BLACKOUT]inability to have children[/BLACKOUT]. That sound like the Black Widow we have seen?