These films are a collaborative effort, sometimes the director will get his way, sometimes he won't. Even though Whedon may have several beefs with some of the things Marvel wanted or didn't, I don't sense vitriol on his end. I'm still really happy with the final product personally, and am sad to see him go, buuuuuuut very intrigued at the Russo's turn, I feel Marvel and the Russo's may have a really good chemistry, kind of like how Gunn & Marvel seem to have a good chemistry.
I'm fine with it.. it made sense to me for both characters... it was a little rushed in levels for one film.. but there's nothing wrong with it at all.. people are just making mountains out of mole-hills... do i want it to last, and it bog down future films? NO... do i want them to ride off together in the sunset ? no... and i'm hoping they missed there window... i don't want that bogging down future films.. it's not needed even if it worked. the films don't need that drama from banner and her... id rather her be with someone more like-minded.. and end up with Bucky like she dates in the comics
I think the biggest problem with AOU is basically execution of alot of these ideas and the criticism of Brutasha is symptom of the execution issues the film has. The most consistent critique of the film across the board and of critics has been that the execution of the film ideas and plots are either insufficient, or they spend to much time on some things rather than others. As far as I'm concerned, none of the ideas and concepts in the film are bad.
Its not like ASM 2 which was a jumble of underdeveloped and weak ideas and concepts. The idea of Bruce and Natasha gravitating towards each other isn't bad idea or somehow inconsistent with Natasha being a strong woman. I still felt Natasha was a strong female character, so for me that's not an issue. For me, the argument isn't over whether Natasha can be strong and fall in love at the same time.
The point is that if you're going to make that part of you're story you've got to do it in a way that is convincing to the viewers , and consistent with how the characters have been written in several other films. That goes for any characters development male or female. It's not so much where you're going but how you get there that can make a storyline a hit or miss.
Its amazing though because in this case, spiderman 3 and ironman 2 the studio meddling is blatantly obvious because the films dont have a natural flow to them. Too many random ideas and none fully tie together.
I think the biggest problem with AOU is basically execution of alot of these ideas and the criticism of Brutasha is symptom of the execution issues the film has. The most consistent critique of the film across the board and of critics has been that the execution of the film ideas and plots are either insufficient, or they spend to much time on some things rather than others. As far as I'm concerned, none of the ideas and concepts in the film are bad.
Its not like ASM 2 which was a jumble of underdeveloped and weak ideas and concepts. The idea of Bruce and Natasha gravitating towards each other isn't bad idea or somehow inconsistent with Natasha being a strong woman. I still felt Natasha was a strong female character, so for me that's not an issue. For me, the argument isn't over whether Natasha can be strong and fall in love at the same time.
The point is that if you're going to make that part of you're story you've got to do it in a way that is convincing to the viewers , and consistent with how the characters have been written in several other films. That goes for any characters development male or female. It's not so much where you're going but how you get there that can make a storyline a hit or miss.
I'm fine with it.. it made sense to me for both characters... it was a little rushed in levels for one film.. but there's nothing wrong with it at all.. people are just making mountains out of mole-hills... do i want it to last, and it bog down future films? NO... do i want them to ride off together in the sunset ? no... and i'm hoping they missed there window... i don't want that bogging down future films.. it's not needed even if it worked. the films don't need that drama from banner and her... id rather her be with someone more like-minded.. and end up with Bucky like she dates in the comics
She dates Bucky in the comics? I like that, it would be cool to see them interact on screen as characters. I only read DC when it comes to comics so I am relatively unfamiliar with the Marvel mythology in comparison (the movies and TV shows are enough for me, plus DC drains enough money from me as is lol).
Im fine with Marvel/director collaborations. I just thought on this film specifically Joss would get his say since he did such a great job on the first and has so many cool ideas the fans would love. I think he got most of what he wanted anyway, so its not a huge deal.
As far as the BW/Hulk romance: Ish happens in life. You cant expect these characters to stay neutral in every aspect of their lives. Things change. People do too, esp super heroes who go through life altering battles/wars.
I really liked this movie for the most part, I just dont want too much interference in the artists visions because it always screws up the final product in the end.
These films are a collaborative effort, sometimes the director will get his way, sometimes he won't. Even though Whedon may have several beefs with some of the things Marvel wanted or didn't, I don't sense vitriol on his end. I'm still really happy with the final product personally, and am sad to see him go, buuuuuuut very intrigued at the Russo's turn, I feel Marvel and the Russo's may have a really good chemistry, kind of like how Gunn & Marvel seem to have a good chemistry.
Agreed. The only problem here is he's being a bit too open and honest. I don't think there's anything out of the ordinary with what he's describing. Feige and Marvel didn't suddenly become Avi Arad. Whedon is very open about pretty much anything he has an opinion on.
One of the issues I have with both Avengers movies is that it seems to me that Betty Ross no longer exists. Pepper we saw in Avengers. Jane was mentioned in Avengers.
Peggy was in Age of Ultron in a flashback
but no mention at all of Betty. There probably won't be any mention of her in the next Avengers films either.
Hopefully that changes if the rumors of Thunderbolt Ross in Civil War are true.
YEAH because she thought that's what bruce wanted.. and ishe knew it was something she couldn't provide him.... and that scared her... NEWFLASH .. that's how most people feel when they are in love with someone and feel that they can't give the person what they want... kids or not. it was not a reflection of her self-worth at all. it was about wanting to provide someone she cared about with what she thought they wanted..
have you never been in a relationship before where you felt you couldn't make the person you cared about happy?
that moment went away when she realized he didn't mean that nor could have kids himself...
One, stop being aggressive. I am being civil with you. If you rather me not, then fine. You are the one using vast generalization while missing the naunce of the characters established over 10 films.
Two, it isn't about what she can offer him. It is her own melancholy over the situations and what it makes her in her eyes.
One of the issues I have with both Avengers movies is that it seems to me that Betty Ross no longer exists. Pepper we saw in Avengers. Jane was mentioned in Avengers.
Peggy was in Age of Ultron in a flashback
but no mention at all of Betty. There probably won't be any mention of her in the next Avengers films either.
Hopefully that changes if the rumors of Thunderbolt Ross in Civil War are true.
Yeah, exactly. The man has written some fantastic stuff in the past but there's no way that talking about the difficult collaborative process, actively criticising the cave scene and talking about how "the gun was pointed" at the farm scene, isn't intended to be critical and show his annoyance. The film was literally just released in the States! No director goes into the ugly, nitty gritty of the filming process mere days after release unless they're pissed.
One, stop being aggressive. I am being civil with you. If you rather me not, then fine. You are the one using vast generalization while missing the naunce of the characters established over 10 films.
Two, it isn't about what she can offer him. It is her own melancholy over the situations and what it makes her in her eyes.
In TA, Natasha breaks down the wall a little bit. Worried about her friend Clint, bringing up the "red in her ledger" thing on a couple of different occasions, being completely shaken (for probably the first time in a long time) by her first interaction with Banner. The other exchanges between her and Banner are not the flirty badass banter she generally has with most of the rest of the team (except Clint who saw something in her and brought her over to the side of "good".)
While not much of this BW was seen in CA:TWS, it was on the screen before the events in AoU.
In AoU,
it is not the lack of being able to bear children that makes her think she is a monster. She JUST re-hashed her SUPER traumatic upbringing being raised to kill starting as a young child. She grew up as a weapon of destruction, a killing machine, whose only item of importance was "the mission". And yes, she regrets what was done to her as far as sterilization, but she reviewed a life lost spent as a killer, a monster. Her recent life (all the parts WE have seen in the MCU) has shown a story arc of becoming a friend and a team member. Still kicking ass, but also growing closer to people than she has ever been. She is developing and experiencing things new to her. How slow was your first sense of love? And yet, she does still put the mission first which is shown by the "but right now I need the big guy right now" scene.
In TA, Natasha breaks down the wall a little bit. Worried about her friend Clint, bringing up the "red in her ledger" thing on a couple of different occasions, being completely shaken (for probably the first time in a long time) by her first interaction with Banner. The other exchanges between her and Banner are not the flirty badass banter she generally has with most of the rest of the team (except Clint who saw something in her and brought her over to the side of "good".)
While not much of this BW was seen in CA:TWS, it was on the screen before the events in AoU.
In AoU,
it is not the lack of being able to bear children that makes her think she is a monster. She JUST re-hashed her SUPER traumatic upbringing being raised to kill starting as a young child. She grew up as a weapon of destruction, a killing machine, whose only item of importance was "the mission". And yes, she regrets what was done to her as far as sterilization, but she reviewed a life lost spent as a killer, a monster. Her recent life (all the parts WE have seen in the MCU) has shown a story arc of becoming a friend and a team member. Still kicking ass, but also growing closer to people than she has ever been. She is developing and experiencing things new to her. How slow was your first sense of love? And yet, she does still put the mission first which is shown by the "but right now I need the big guy right now" scene.
It makes sense: the people crazy or stupid enough to not understand the Bruce/Natasha/Sterilization/Monster scene are the same people who are crazy or stupid enough to make death threats on Twitter. Lovely.
Alot of the debates over AOU reminds me of the debates about TDKR. You basically have a film in which most people agree is good but the execution of ideas,themes, characters, and plots was the dividing line between those who really loved it and those who thought it was okay. So you had those who love it passionately defend it and those who thought it was just okay highlighting the flaws that kept it from being great. I don't think the opinion on AOU is as polarized as something like MOS.
Even the bonehead death threats by fanboys remind me of the fanboys who threatened critics on Rotten tomatoes who didn't like TDKR.
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over that.. you're obviously interpreting things wayyyyyy differently.
